Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
MagicbyAlfred
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Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 1st, 2021, 7:10 pm

Greetings and Glad Tidings everyone and best wishes for a Magical New Year!

Today, I was at a New Years gathering with family and friends. Several of those present, while not magicians, are magic lovers and devotees. They are devout followers of Fool Us and have typically sought out magic as their number one choice of entertainment, when in Vegas and New York, or even locally here in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. They have seen me perform countless times over the years. They are sharp, intelligent people who have seen a lot of magic, and I am always grateful to receive feedback from them, be it positive or negative.

For an effect that I recently devised, I needed to force a card. Prior to today, I had never performed the effect, which (to put it somewhat immodestly) I believe is a very good one. I wanted something quick in the way of a force, but decided against the classic Hindu Shuffle force. Instead, I opted to go out on a limb and try something different. Somewhere in my memory banks was a force I had read about in one of Larry Becker's books many years ago, although I cannot recall which book it was at the moment. Larry's effect required the forcing of (I believe it was) 4 cards, and it may have been the aces, but I'm not sure. I seem to recall Larry writing that he had devised the force, himself, and having not researched it, I have no reason to doubt his proclamation. But, for all I know, someone came up with it centuries ago...Until today, I had never tried it.

So putting aside all fear, worry and trepidation that it might be seen through, I contrived to get the force card on top and, after bringing to the bottom and back to the top with an overhand shuffle, I flipped the deck face up and commenced a face-up Hindu Shuffle, asking Jane, one of the more magically savvy family members, to say "stop" whenever she liked. Of course, this is the typical modus operandi used in the classic face-down Hindu Shuffle force. When she said stop, I simply flipped over the face-up packet of cards remaining in my right hand with a casual half-turn of my wrist, so that the packet was now face-down with the force card being face down on the top of the face-down packet. Then, with my left thumb, I peeled off the top card of that now face-down packet (i.e. the force card) and handed it to Jane, and I turned completely around as I asked her to show it to the company. I breathed a sigh of relief, when I realized there wasn't the slightest sign of suspicion or skepticism at this procedure (and believe me, these are people who would not hesitate for a second to call me out if there was even a grain of suspicion that I forced the card, or otherwise engaged in any chicanery, subterfuge or even irregularity). I was even convinced the card came from the center of the deck. :lol:

The bottom line, it whizzed right by them, and there was absolute conviction all around that the card was freely selected at random. This is something you can just "feel" based on experience - shall we say a long track record of both successes and failures. It doesn't take much to make me happy, and this did. The trick was then brought to a successful (and very surprising) conclusion, and the reactions were exceptionally strong. As I reflected upon this afterward, I felt convinced that the face-up Hiindu Shuffle force was substantially more convincing than the classic method, and I am thrilled that this will be a powerful magical weapon in my card arsenal going forward - at least that is my belief until if and when it is proven otherwise.

I was wondering if any of the members use or have used this method, or at least have tried it, and what kind of success (or lack thereof) they have had with it? Or, if anyone can offer anything in regard to the history of the effect, variations on it, or subtleties that might be used in connection with it, that would be wonderful too.

PS If this somehow appears on YouTube as a "tutorial" or trick "revealed," the perpetrator will be tracked down by a team of Pit Balls and Rottwielers and brought to (a very un-poetic) justice.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Bob Coyne » January 1st, 2021, 8:24 pm

That's interesting, I've never tried that but want to try it out!

I wonder if the constantly changing face up cards draws their attention away from anything else and hence masks the discrepancy of where the card is actually coming from. Whereas when doing it face down in the normal way, it all looks the same throughout, so they can focus on other things and be more suspicious or bored or whatever during the process.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 1st, 2021, 8:45 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:That's interesting, I've never tried that but want to try it out!

I wonder if the constantly changing face up cards draws their attention away from anything else and hence masks the discrepancy of where the card is actually coming from. Whereas when doing it face down in the normal way, it all looks the same throughout, so they can focus on other things and be more suspicious or bored or whatever during the process.


Bob, your theory immediately struck a harmonious chord. Very insightful analysis.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Jackpot » January 1st, 2021, 9:10 pm

Alfred, I'm curious to know if you used time misdirection or just immediately offered the force card.
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MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 1st, 2021, 9:37 pm

Jackpot wrote:Alfred, I'm curious to know if you used time misdirection or just immediately offered the force card.


Jack, a very good question. I did pause for a few beats after she said stop, holding the right hand packet a few inches above the packet in my left hand. In other words, I did not immediately turn the right hand packet face down. If you try this with cards in hand, you'll see that this pause adds to the conviction that the card comes from the middle. When they see the separation of the two face up packets after they say stop, and they have an opportunity to digest the relative positions of the two face up packets (the right hand packet being above the left hand one, but a few inches closer to your body than the left hand packet), then when you turn the right hand packet face down, I believe that the conviction that the card genuinely came from the center is heightened. This being due to the mental picture their mind had a chance to "take" before the right hand packet is turned face-down and the top card slid off with the left thumb and given to them. And I think that their conviction is further reinforced due to the fact (as Bob Coyne alluded to) that they see different cards, including the two different face-up cards that are showing on the right-hand and left-hand packets, respectively, after they say stop and you pause. Again, I think that the subtlety in this will become clear when you experiment with it cards in hand.

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chetday
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby chetday » January 2nd, 2021, 2:45 pm

Alfred, my memory's shot for the most part, but dredging around in it after reading about your cool idea, I don't recall ever running across this Hindu shuffle variant in any of my card magic books. I played around with this a bit and you can be sure I'm going to use it in the future because it's one of those forces that can give a magician a serious hit of fun because it's so darn easy to do and deceptive as all get out.

I'm thinking Bob's on the money with his observation about the visual element being a key part of the deception.

I'm curious as to how you proceed with the two packets (since one packet is face up and the other face down) once the spectator has the forced card in hand?

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 2nd, 2021, 3:27 pm

chetday wrote:Alfred, my memory's shot for the most part, but dredging around in it after reading about your cool idea, I don't recall ever running across this Hindu shuffle variant in any of my card magic books. I played around with this a bit and you can be sure I'm going to use it in the future because it's one of those forces that can give a magician a serious hit of fun because it's so darn easy to do and deceptive as all get out.

I'm thinking Bob's on the money with his observation about the visual element being a key part of the deception.

I'm curious as to how you proceed with the two packets (since one packet is face up and the other face down) once the spectator has the forced card in hand?


Chet, I am glad that you will have fun with it and enjoy the gratification that comes from being able to pull off a very deceptive move (at least in my view) with ease, and without worry of detection, or even suspicion. Thinking about what you wrote made me realize that I have finally come up with the most succinct explanation for why I love magic. Two words: "It's fun!" And yes, I agree that Bob's on the money.

Once the spectator has the forced card in hand, I simply turn my right hand/wrist a half turn inward towards myself (counter-clockwise) bringing the packet face up once again (essentially reversing the clockwise motion that turned the packet face-down in the first instance), and then place the packet on top of the face up packet in my left hand. The nice thing about this is that, as you approach the packet being held in the left hand with the (once-again) face-up packet held in the right hand, and then place the right hand packet on top of the packet in the left hand, it reinforces the impression even further, that the card came from somewhere in the center of the deck.

Have fun!

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Paco Nagata
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Paco Nagata » January 2nd, 2021, 5:00 pm

There is not a better way for a card magician to start a New Year than by a witty, easy and useful idea, Alfred!
Thank you!

As you do it you can say:
"We have a well mixed up deck of card.... please say stop whenever you want..."
So that you give a reason why you show the cards face up; to show that they are well mixed up :-)

Sure, we will have fun with this subtlety :-)
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MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 2nd, 2021, 9:05 pm

Good idea, Paco! Thank you!
Les deseo a usted y a su familia un feliz, pacífico y saludable año nuevo!

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 4th, 2021, 2:00 pm

I was playing around more with the face-up Hindu Shuffle Force today (I'm a lonely guy) and came up with a subtlety that could be applied to it. I'm certainly not trying to take credit for any earthshaking discovery here, as I believe it is a well-established maneuver that I have seen used to convey the impression that the cards are being well mixed, while maintaining a stack of some sort on top or bottom of the deck.

To apply this subtlety to the face-up Hindu Shuffle Force, holding the deck face up in position for a Hindu shuffle (force card on bottom of the face-up deck), one can begin by pulling out a big block of cards anywhere above the force card and begin Hiindu shuffling face up, perhaps saying something like, "In a moment, I'm going to have you select a card from this deck, but I want to make sure the cards are well mixed." This does double-duty, in that it shows the cards are all different and it heightens conviction, because the cards are overtly shuffled. Plus, it "trains" them to see the cards being shuffled in the Hindu manner before the forcing procedure begins. When the shuffle is completed, of course the force card is still in the necessary position at the bottom of the face-up deck, and one need now only proceed with the force.

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chetday
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby chetday » January 5th, 2021, 2:31 pm

Alfred, I've also been playing around with your face-up Hindu shuffle, and I like your new suggestion about pulling out blocks while Hinduing face up.

Though it may be overkill, during my noodling around, what do you think about this approach:

"Let's make sure this desk is really well mixed." Do a couple of overhand shuffles while retaining the force card on top of the face down deck.

Turn the deck face up, pull out a block and slowly start your Hindu variation, using a slight variation of Paco's:

"See, we now have a well mixed up deck of cards...

Hindu shuffle for a block or two or three and then, while running the bottom batch with the force card, direct the spectator to:

"... please say stop whenever you want..."

When you're told to stop, kaboom, let them remove the face down force card, and then do the half turn as you described earlier in the thread and rejoin the face-up packets.

I don't know if it's just me and my conviction that slow card magic is the best card magic, but the slower I practiced this approach, the more I liked it.

With that said, since I no longer have my late wife to "pick a card" and won't see my grandson until the weekend, I can't yet attest as to how this approach will fly in fast company. I do know my grandson will jump all over me if this doesn't fly right past him. :)

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby PressureFan » January 5th, 2021, 3:29 pm

I’ve enjoyed toying with this.

Seeing the different card faces go by is similar to a face up false overhand shuffle in The Impostress Princess Expanded. (I can’t believe I found the reference in my notes right away.)

I don’t know if this is of value or not but I pull the face down force card onto the lower packet, turn the wrist back and immediately shuffle off the remainder. Then I spread the face up deck and show the reversed card apparently in situ.

Nothing being enough, I like doing the Hindu Shuffle with the straddle type grip with the knuckles against the top. I’m not sure if there is a proper title for this grip.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 5th, 2021, 3:46 pm

chetday wrote:Alfred, I've also been playing around with your face-up Hindu shuffle, and I like your new suggestion about pulling out blocks while Hinduing face up.

Though it may be overkill, during my noodling around, what do you think about this approach:

"Let's make sure this desk is really well mixed." Do a couple of overhand shuffles while retaining the force card on top of the face down deck.

Turn the deck face up, pull out a block and slowly start your Hindu variation, using a slight variation of Paco's:

"See, we now have a well mixed up deck of cards...

Hindu shuffle for a block or two or three and then, while running the bottom batch with the force card, direct the spectator to:

"... please say stop whenever you want..."

When you're told to stop, kaboom, let them remove the face down force card, and then do the half turn as you described earlier in the thread and rejoin the face-up packets.

I don't know if it's just me and my conviction that slow card magic is the best card magic, but the slower I practiced this approach, the more I liked it.

With that said, since I no longer have my late wife to "pick a card" and won't see my grandson until the weekend, I can't yet attest as to how this approach will fly in fast company. I do know my grandson will jump all over me if this doesn't fly right past him. :)


Chet, that sounds great! And I agree with you completely as to your observation about slow card magic. Matter of fact I think it applies to coin magic and virtually all kinds of magic. I have seen so many magicians work fast, and this takes away from the clarity of the effect, and can even create confusion. (See Vernon: "Confusion is not magic.") Moreover, rapid movements telegraph that there is something to hide -- that the magician may be trying to pull the wool (wow, that rhymes) over the spectator's eyes and this creates suspicion. (See Erdnase: "They should not even suspect, let alone detect") Going slowly conveys the impression that all is fair and above board (even if it really isn't), and heightens conviction, which in turns strengthens the impact of the effect. While there is no "effect" per se in the selection procedure when a card is being forced, it is absolutely vital that the spectator believe there was no manipulation and obviously, that the choice was 1005 a free one, with no influence on the part of the magician.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 5th, 2021, 4:01 pm

PressureFan wrote:I’ve enjoyed toying with this.

Seeing the different card faces go by is similar to a face up false overhand shuffle in The Impostress Princess Expanded. (I can’t believe I found the reference in my notes right away.)

I don’t know if this is of value or not but I pull the face down force card onto the lower packet, turn the wrist back and immediately shuffle off the remainder. Then I spread the face up deck and show the reversed card apparently in situ.

Nothing being enough, I like doing the Hindu Shuffle with the straddle type grip with the knuckles against the top. I’m not sure if there is a proper title for this grip.


Yes, there is a good analogy to the face up overhand shuffle. I would not presume to say that something is not of "value" as long as it works for you. But my personal feeling is there is no need to pull the face down force card onto the lower packet, turn the wrist back and immediately shuffle off the remainder, then spread the face up deck and show the reversed card. IMHO this accomplishes indirectly what can be done in a very direct manner, that is, to just pull off the face down card and hand it to them (or even have them pull it off themselves). If we shuffle off the remaining face up cards onto their "selection" (the force card), then the card disappears from view, at least temporarily. And the way laymen think, when you spread to show the face-down card, they are liable to question whether that is indeed the same card they selected, and may suspect you manipulated things. My feeling is why add another layer to the selection process when it is so straightforward, and there can be no doubt that the card they take is in fact the one that was right at the point in the deck where they stopped you?

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby PressureFan » January 5th, 2021, 4:49 pm

You're right, it draws suspicion. Maybe if it were out-jogged and stayed in view as you shuffle off. Shuffling off could be like continuing to spread the cards after a classic forced card is taken.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 6th, 2021, 5:10 pm

PressureFan wrote:You're right, it draws suspicion. Maybe if it were out-jogged and stayed in view as you shuffle off. Shuffling off could be like continuing to spread the cards after a classic forced card is taken.


PressureFan, I am inferring that you believe out-jogging the force card, then shuffling off the remainder of the cards in the right hand might reinforce the illusion and conviction that the card came from the center. And that may well be the case. However, my personal view is that even without that step, they will have no question that the card in fact came from the center. I am tempted to try it the way you've described, though, just to compare, because the spectators are always the most accurate barometer of the effectiveness of what we do. But my concern is whether it might possibly invite suspicion when there otherwise would have been none, because really, what would be the justification for the out-jogging and shuffling off procedure in lieu of simply pulling off the card and handing it to them or having them remove it themselves?

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Jack Shalom » January 7th, 2021, 7:33 am

Anyone try turning over *both* hands after the stop? Keep the right hand's packet below the left's. I think it may enhance the illusion a bit.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Paco Nagata » January 7th, 2021, 9:23 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:(...) (I'm a lonely guy) (...)

I used to be... for quite a long time. But it was precisely the most creative moment/tme of my amateur card magic life :-)

Nowadays I will not have so much free time until I retire, I guess, but fortunately I can enjoy so many great ideas, notions and subtleties that people share here so kindly and generously :-)
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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 7th, 2021, 10:07 am

Jack Shalom wrote:Anyone try turning over *both* hands after the stop? Keep the right hand's packet below the left's. I think it may enhance the illusion a bit.


I could not visualize the (IMO very good) potential of this idea until I tried it out with cards in hand. And, as an added subtlety (and justification for turning over the packet in the left hand), as we turn over that left hand's packet, we could extend the index finger of the left hand, while continuing to grip the (now face-down) packet with the left thumb and remaining fingers, and tap the top card of the right hand packet with the left hand index finger, saying something like, "Great, would you please remove this card." As those words or similar are spoken, we can turn our head away to emphasize the (ha ha) "fairness" of the procedure. In this variation, there is what could be seen as the added advantage that the spectator removes the card, as opposed to the card being handed to the spectator by the magician. Generally speaking, the less a magician handles or touches the props, and instead allows the spectator to do so, the more fair it will seem in the eyes of the spectator, hence building more conviction. Of course, all of this, as pretty much everything else that has been written in connection with this thread, assumes that the magician is right-handed. Naturally, for a left-handed person, all references to the right hand should be deemed referring to the left hand, and vice-versa.

Incidentally, I think that a point Brad H. made today on the equivoque study thread may also be relevant to the selection process here. To more "invest" the spectator in the selection procedure, instead of just telling them to say stop without giving them a clue as to why, it might be worthwhile to consider something like the following: After the magician shuffles the deck, retaining the force card in position and as he/she pulls out a block of cards above the force card and slowly commences the preparatory/demonstrative Hindu Shuffle before doing the actual force, the magician could say, for example, I want to be sure these cards are well-mixed because in a moment I am going to have you select a card at random that we will use in this little experiment." (or whatever words come natural to you - the point being that the spectator understands what is going on before being asked to say "stop" and there is thus some meaning and context to frame the procedure).

One other point -- after the spectator says "stop," I think the magician should pause for a beat or two before turning over the right hand's packet, and then pause for another beat or two before turning over the left hand packet and tapping the force card with the left hand index finger.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Jack Shalom » January 7th, 2021, 4:14 pm

I like the idea of bringing in the left forefinger to point.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 7th, 2021, 8:49 pm

Paco Wrote: "Nowadays I will not have so much free time until I retire, I guess, but fortunately I can enjoy so many great ideas, notions and subtleties that people share here so kindly and generously."

Yes, it seems we can up with some really good things when we put our heads together.

I might add that Paco, himself, has been quite kind and generous, not only with what he shares on this Forum, but in making his wonderful book, The Passion of an Amateur Card Magician, available to us free of charge.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Will Power » February 21st, 2021, 7:52 am

What a great idea!

Will.

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby MarcoTX » February 21st, 2021, 4:41 pm

Reading the description made me think of illogical forces in general during which the flipping over of a packet has a lot to do with adding to the deception. Highly recommend checking out some of Justin Highams booklets, he's done a great job pulling a bunch of illogical material together and adding his own thoughts:

https://justin-higham.com/

Bold and Illogical Card Moves is a good one for example.

Table of contents: https://www.angelfire.com/blog/card-mag ... gical.html

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Re: Happy Hindu Shuffle!

Postby Andy Galloway » February 24th, 2021, 8:57 pm

I used this force in my Bluff Colour Changing Pack described in Diverting Card Magic published in 1980, but I feel sure that I read years before in a book or magazine and cannot remember which one. Have also employed it effectively in a few other tricks since then.


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