Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
MagicbyAlfred
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Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 19th, 2020, 3:52 pm

It's a very hot July day in South Carolina. I was getting ready to run an errand in my car a couple hours ago, but when I turned the key that sickening feeling suddenly came over me. Not only did she not start up, but there wasn't even a sign she was trying - no stuttering, no clicking, no nothing. Just dead silence. Fortunately, this happened in my driveway and I am able to wait for the AAA service people in my home. To pass the (now-long) waiting time and to keep my mind off the prospect of the car having to be towed to my (closed-on-Sunday) mechanic's shop and a potentially expensive repair, my thoughts turned to my one-coin (Morgan Silver Dollar) routine - a work that has been in progress for literally decades.

There is one issue in particular that I want to put out there for our talented and resourceful members to consider and, if they like, to offer an opinion. This relates to the typical situation where a false transfer of a coin is made from one hand to the other, in order to accomplish the vanish of the coin, whether by a retention vanish, a classic palm vanish, a finger palm vanish, a French drop, or whatever. I'm sure most everyone is aware that no matter how good the false transfer may be, once the "vanish" is shown to have occurred (and when there has not been a complete vanish, through, for example, sleeving, or ditching the coin into a pocket), through the operation of simple logic, the spectator deduces (and correctly so) that the coin is in "the other hand." This is true even if the magician reproduces the coin from behind his elbow or knee, plucks it from the air, or pulls it from a spectator's ear. They still believe (again, correctly so) that it was in the hand used to reproduce the coin.

Here is a possible solution that occurred to me, as I sit here (still) waiting for the service truck to arrive. [Update, I called to find out what was taking so long, and it turns out the guy was downstairs in the parking lot trying to contact me by call or text, but AAA had my wrong number so, he tried to contact me to no avail, and left. Ahhhrrghh!]. Let's say I did a retention pass pretending, with my right fingers, to place the coin into my left hand, and my left hand closes into a fist. That's my most deceptive vanish. Let's say that instead of waving my right hand over my left, or snapping my right fingers, or pretending to massage the (pretend) coin in my left hand, I held up my right hand, with the coin finger palmed therein, right index finger pointing upward (in the words, using the Ramsey subtlety to implicitly show the right hand empty) saying, "Watch." Meanwhile, the closed left hand is still in plain view. The right hand is then also closed into a fist, and, looking at my left fist, I would say, "I am going to invisibly toss the coin." At that point, a tossing motion is made with the closed left hand toward the (closed) right hand, and the right hand makes kind of a catching motion, but still remains closed. Both hands are still closed at this point.

Now here are the two options I am considering (either of which avoids the "coin was in your other hand" problem I described earlier). Option (1) The left hand first slowly opens to show the coin has vanished, and then the right hand opens to show the coin arrived there; Option (2) The right hand first opens to show the coin has arrived there, and then the left hand is shown to be empty. Which do you think would be the more deceptive way of doing it? Or maybe you just think neither is any good, and that's fine - just would love to hear some opinions. Oh WOW, AAA IS HERE!

Bob Farmer
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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Bob Farmer » July 19th, 2020, 6:05 pm

Alfred: consider Marlo's coin vanish--I think he calls it the "Spider Vanish." The right hand apparently puts the coin in the left hand but it's done somewhat awkwardly, so there is suspicion that the coin is still in the right hand. The left hand opens, but palm down, so the coin is gone--but then the right hand is turned palm up and there is no coin there.

The coin is classic palmed in the left hand but the reverse psychology makes this all work.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 19th, 2020, 6:43 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:Alfred: consider Marlo's coin vanish--I think he calls it the "Spider Vanish." The right hand apparently puts the coin in the left hand but it's done somewhat awkwardly, so there is suspicion that the coin is still in the right hand. The left hand opens, but palm down, so the coin is gone--but then the right hand is turned palm up and there is no coin there.

The coin is classic palmed in the left hand but the reverse psychology makes this all work.


I like it, Bob, and the psychology behind it seems sound. I will look into this! Thanks!

By the way, speaking of reverse psychology, I've had some good clean fun with magicians with the French drop. Try this one out sometime; I think you'll enjoy it. Let's say you are holding a coin between thumb and fingers of your right hand, in French drop position. The left hand comes over to take the coin in the usual manner, but instead of faking the take and letting the coin drop down into the right hand finger palm as you would normally do, actually take the coin in the left hand and close it, and stare at the closed left hand, as the right middle, ring and pinkie fingers curl inward as if loosely gripping a coin. Then point at your closed left hand with the index finger of your right hand and say, "OK watch, and be amazed. We have a coin here in the hand." They will laugh and/or point at the right hand, certain the coin is there, as if to say, "Did you really think you could fool me with that?" Then I like to respond: "I can't believe you don't trust me," showing that the coin is, in fact, in the left hand. Or, sometimes I do it the other way around, which is to show the right hand (which they believe is holding the coin) to be empty, which, because they were misled, will have the effect of a vanish. In an odd sort of way, it is a trick in itself, and you will definitely get a laugh when they realize they've been had.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Ian Kendall » July 20th, 2020, 4:59 am

WRT to the 'it's in the other hand' phenomenon, I've written about my approach to this a few times (in Basic Training, but also in Basic Coin Magic and, more recently, in One Coin, and the Genii Bash morning lectures). With the correct blocking (at least, correct for me...), I've been able to greatly mitigate the problem.

Happily, it doesn't involve the Spider Vanish...

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 20th, 2020, 10:24 am

I have now watched several videos on the Spider Vanish. This one (and I believe that even Ian, who's not fond of the move, will agree) is far and away the best one ever! The magician is so amazing, he even fooled himself!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb5D_Z6wWOE

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Ian Kendall » July 20th, 2020, 3:06 pm

The biggest problem I have with the Spider vanish is it's the embodiment of 'challenge magic' with the added sting to the spectator. Very not the direction I want to follow...

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 20th, 2020, 9:01 pm

Al Baker's salt and pepper routine might be a safe place for that vanish. After the half dollar winds up under the shaker a second time you use that hand to reach for a different prop "just checking" :D
More generally - is this about using magic to send the coin someplace i. e. what's the effect supposed to be?
For a guessing game it can be fun to use two coins ;)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Bill Duncan
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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Bill Duncan » July 21st, 2020, 12:05 am

Try this.
1. ROV into the left hand. Make a palm down throwing action followed by a snap of the fingers to set the "moment" of the vanish.
2. Reproduce the coin from your left elbow/sleeve at the elbow.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
4. After establishing a pattern with the repeat actually place the coin into left hand and make a tossing action down as you snap your left fingers again palming the coin in the left hand.
5. Reach for the coin at the left elbow and find that it is not there.
6. Look as your palm up left hand and wonder where the coin went, allowing the hand to be seen seen empty.
7. Reach for your right sleeve and as your left hand passes over the right, drop the palmed coin into the right hand finger palm. Look up as you do this and begin to speak. The spectator will assume the coin will be at your right elbow. Register that it is not as you speak.
8. Ask "may I?" and then reproduce the coin from the spectator's elbow with your just seen empty right hand.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Jack Shalom » July 21st, 2020, 5:37 am

Bill, thanks, but Step 6 is not clear to me. Did you mean, "Look at your palm up right hand"?

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 21st, 2020, 12:15 pm

Some interesting perspectives have been shared, and I appreciate and learn from every one of them. I would like to have some opinions on the sequence I proposed in my original post, and in particular, option 1 versus option 2, the good, the bad and the ugly. As I continue to reflect on it, I am leaning toward option 2, because by first showing that the coin has "arrived" in the right hand (after its invisible flight from the left hand),and then showing it has vanished from the left hand, the "it's in the other hand" conundrum is, by definition, eliminated.

I think the Ramsey subtlety is as ingenious a coin technique as has ever been devised. For example, even as widely known as the French drop has become (P & T exposed it on national TV - thanx guys), it can become extra deceptive used in tandem with the Ramsey Subtlety. Let's say that the right hand, from which the coin was apparently taken by the left hand is held up, with the coin fingerpalmed, the right index finger pointing in the air (NOT at the other hand!) and the magician says, "Watch!" In that instance, the right hand has been subtly shown to be empty (even if not definitively so) before the coin is shown to have vanished from the left hand. Thus, when the left hand is opened to show the coin has vanished, they are far less likely to suspect (if at all) that it's in the other hand. I think this could fall into the category of what Jack Shalom called (ln another recent thread) "proof before the fact." And such proof is especially important because if a French drop is done and the magician goes right to the vanish, the spectator is left with no logical place to go except that it's in the other hand.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Bill Duncan » July 21st, 2020, 8:28 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:Bill, thanks, but Step 6 is not clear to me. Did you mean, "Look at your palm up right hand"?

Yeah, sorry. I'm a southpaw and sometimes I miss when flipping in a write up.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Bill Duncan » July 21st, 2020, 8:49 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:...the right index finger pointing in the air (NOT at the other hand!) and the magician says, "Watch!" In that instance, the right hand has been subtly shown to be empty (even if not definitively so) before the coin is shown to have vanished from the left hand.


Perhaps it's because this is the way I learned the French Drop (back in the day from a magic book I no longer have sadly.. I want to say it was by someone named Bill Gross?) but I think you're giving the idea too much credit. It's deceptive, sure, but not in and of itself.

In any case it's not finger palm subtlety or the deep palm subtlety (aka Malini/Kaps) that is any more deceptive than a well executed French Drop. Watch Homer Liwag's version for example... It's the narrative and direction of attention. The "watch" bit is just the easiest way to get there.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Frank Yuen » July 22nd, 2020, 7:35 am

Bill Duncan wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:...the right index finger pointing in the air (NOT at the other hand!) and the magician says, "Watch!" In that instance, the right hand has been subtly shown to be empty (even if not definitively so) before the coin is shown to have vanished from the left hand.


Perhaps it's because this is the way I learned the French Drop (back in the day from a magic book I no longer have sadly.. I want to say it was by someone named Bill Gross?)


Was it Pure Magic! by Henry Gross? That was a great book for beginners!

https://magicref.net/magicbooks/books/g ... emagic.htm

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 22nd, 2020, 9:04 am

Bill Duncan Wrote: "In any case it's not finger palm subtlety or the deep palm subtlety (aka Malini/Kaps) that is any more deceptive than a well executed French Drop. Watch Homer Liwag's version for example... It's the narrative and direction of attention. The "watch" bit is just the easiest way to get there."

Bill, I agree that a well-executed French Drop can be very deceptive. Maybe I wasn't clear though, as I didn't intend to compare the Ramsey Subtlety to the French Drop; my point was that the two techniques used in tandem might heighten the overall deceptiveness of the sequence. After all, no matter how well-executed or deceptive one's French Drop may be, once they see the vanish from the hand that supposedly took the coin, if they believe it's in the other hand, the overall effect could be diluted. But it's entirely possible I am unduly concerned about "the other hand" issue. What I have been doing for quite a while after either a French Drop or Finger Palm Vanish is to immediately go up and squeeze my nose with the guilty hand, letting the coin visibly drop about a foot to my waiting hand below which catches it. Sounds pretty elegant, huh? Usually they are too busy laughing to go into analytical mode at that point...

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Bill Duncan » July 24th, 2020, 10:54 pm

Alfred, my point was that "yes" that adds to the deception, but only if you do it well. I've seen so many people who were taken in by it and adopted it, but don't understand what it isn't. It's not a one-two punch. If you don't do it well it's not more deceptive than a well-done French Drop without it.

The entire sequence needs to provide a narrative, and that is certainly a valid and useful part of a construction. But you need to continue the narrative flow up to the end.

And Frank... thank you for that. It was indeed Henry Gross and it's a wonderful first book on sleight of hand.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 25th, 2020, 10:07 am

Yes, Bill, I definitely see your point. And I like that term "narrative flow."

Typically, I like to "dress up" (to borrow a term from Senor Tamariz) my routines with stories and patter lines. But my vision of the one-coin routine is essentially a demonstration of a series of magical effects (primarily vanishes and productions), with very little, if any patter, that has a smooth narrative flow. Laymen appreciate clean, artful, deceptive sleight of hand for its own sake. Magicians too. As I mentioned, this has been a long and evolving work-in-progress for me...

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Andy Galloway » July 25th, 2020, 11:28 am

John Ramsay`s handling of the French Drop might be of interest. He would display an old British half-crown in his right hand with the tail side facing the spectators and draw their attention to the date asking if they had ever seen one before. He would then bring his left hand over and actually take the coin and turn the hand towards the spectators stating that the Queen was on the head side and if you squeezed her gently she would disappear. While saying this, he would apparently take the coin, but allow it to drop into the left hand and move the closed right hand away turning it towards the audience. The fingers would make a squeezing motion, then slowly open to show the empty hand and in the meantime the left would be turned to the spectators to display it apparently empty with the coin concealed in the curled fingers in what has become known as the Ramsay Subtlety. Finally hope Magic Alfred won`t mind me pointing out the correct spelling of Ramsay.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Jim Martin » July 25th, 2020, 12:28 pm

Thanks you for sharing this handling, Andy.

I love the direct connection to Mr. Ramsay, as seen in all of the books and DVDs you've generously released:
The Ramsay Legend (1969)
The Ramsay Classics (1977)
The Ramsay Finale (1982)
Diverting Card Magic (1980)
Ramsay Legend Revised (1985)
The Magic of John Ramsay, Vol 1-3 - DVD (2004)
John Ramsay´s Tasselled Rope Trick (2005)
Diverting Coin Magic (2006)
They constitute a regular part of my studies.

Cheers!
Jim Martin
St. Louis MO

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 25th, 2020, 2:01 pm

Andy, thank you for correcting my spelling of Ramsay. I ought to have known better.

Alfred

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 25th, 2020, 2:21 pm

Andy Galloway wrote:John Ramsay`s handling of the French Drop might be of interest. He would display an old British half-crown in his right hand with the tail side facing the spectators and draw their attention to the date asking if they had ever seen one before. He would then bring his left hand over and actually take the coin and turn the hand towards the spectators stating that the Queen was on the head side and if you squeezed her gently she would disappear. While saying this, he would apparently take the coin, but allow it to drop into the left hand and move the closed right hand away turning it towards the audience. The fingers would make a squeezing motion, then slowly open to show the empty hand and in the meantime the left would be turned to the spectators to display it apparently empty with the coin concealed in the curled fingers in what has become known as the Ramsay Subtlety. Finally hope Magic Alfred won`t mind me pointing out the correct spelling of Ramsay.


Thanks, Andy. Question, you write that the left hand actually takes the coin in order to display the head side. Doesn't it have to be returned to French Drop position in the right hand in order to perform the sleight?
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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 25th, 2020, 2:22 pm

I might add that Derek Dingle did a fabulous French Drop, which I believe Harry Lorayne described in detail in Dingle's Deceptions.
At that time, no one else used the French Drop.
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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Joe Lyons » July 25th, 2020, 3:02 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:
Andy Galloway wrote:John Ramsay`s handling of the French Drop might be of interest. He would display an old British half-crown in his right hand with the tail side facing the spectators and draw their attention to the date asking if they had ever seen one before. He would then bring his left hand over and actually take the coin and turn the hand towards the spectators stating that the Queen was on the head side and if you squeezed her gently she would disappear. While saying this, he would apparently take the coin, but allow it to drop into the left hand and move the closed right hand away turning it towards the audience. The fingers would make a squeezing motion, then slowly open to show the empty hand and in the meantime the left would be turned to the spectators to display it apparently empty with the coin concealed in the curled fingers in what has become known as the Ramsay Subtlety. Finally hope Magic Alfred won`t mind me pointing out the correct spelling of Ramsay.


Thanks, Andy. Question, you write that the left hand actually takes the coin in order to display the head side. Doesn't it have to be returned to French Drop position in the right hand in order to perform the sleight?

I’ve always began the sleight with an object in my left hand.
I believe I got that from The Amateur Magician’s Handbook.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby El Mystico » July 25th, 2020, 3:27 pm

The suggestion was made earlier that the Spider Vanish was challenge magic.
I understand that perspective.
But - many years ago I saw Michael Vincent for the first time (then Michael Louis). It was in the annual Magic Circle Close Up competition. In retrospect, I think he used the Spider Vanish. But superbly. I was trying to follow what he was doing, and thought I knew where the coin was...and I was wrong. He did it a few times. NEVER with a smart-arse attitude - always it was just with a casual gesture that he showed the hand empty. And it was then that the magic happened. It was then that I thought, 'This is actually what real magic would look like.' It was then that I relaxed and enjoyed the magic. It was a fantastic lesson.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Andy Galloway » July 25th, 2020, 4:03 pm

Hi Richard, John said that the French Drop was well known to the layman and when you apparently took the coin in the left hand it was not there, so by taking it he was thrown off balance which gave you misdirection for the actual move. If you are more comfortable using the left hand for the vanish, why not display it there first, show it in the right for a moment, then seemingly take it with the left. Charlie Miller thought that we should learn to perform vanishes with both hands rather than just one to make them more deceptive.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Andy Galloway » July 25th, 2020, 5:23 pm

H Jim,
Thank you for you for the kind remarks about the books and DVD, much appreciated.
Regards, Andy.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Bill7 » December 14th, 2020, 8:23 pm

Thank you Andrew Galloway for the books and Videos!! My favorite stuff.
Bill G.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Tom Gilbert » December 14th, 2020, 9:20 pm

I believe Andy's book, "Diverting Coin Magic" has been reprinted.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Michael Rubinstein » December 15th, 2020, 2:48 pm

Hi. The problem with any false transfer is the spectator notion that if the coin is not in one hand, it must be in the other. Certainly your followup action after the false transfer can help to negate that thought. A few things you can do:
1. After a retention pass, the coin lies on the fingertips of the starting hand. Transfer it to finger palm as you wave the apparently open hand over the one supposedly holding the coin.
2. After the false transfer, secretly move the coin to nowhere palm or JW Grip and gesture with the starting hand so that the hand is seen to be empty.
This can be done during the act of the gesture, during the act of pointing to the receiving hand, or by using the Crossed Arm Subtlety described in my book, Rubinstein Coin Magic, to transfer the coin in the act of opening the receiving hand.
3. Retrieve the coin by pretending to take it with the empty hand, then load it in by your favorite method (L'homme Masque load, Vernon load, fingertip load from Rubinstein Coin Magic, etc.).
4. OR...instead of doing a false transfer, you can use a move I developed back in the 80s called the R.O.P.S. move (Retention Open Palm Steal). This move allows you to secretly steal a coin out of your hand as you close it into a fist, saving you the need to do a false transfer. I have taught it everywhere (Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights, NYCMS DVD series, Penguin and At the Table DVD/downloads, and Rubinstein Coin Magic. You can see the techniques demonstrated on my compilation video posted elsewhere in this forum. Hope that helps you.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 15th, 2020, 5:37 pm

Michael, really appreciate your thoughts and recommendations! Thank you! As far as finger-palming the coin after the retention pass, then waving over the hand supposedly containing the coin, I think there is some solid psychology behind that. I had some fun playing with that sequence and then tumbled into the alternative of getting the coin into thumb-palm (this came pretty easy and naturally in the process of moving the hand over to do the waving) and then waving with the coin thumb-palmed to accomplish the "vanish." I really like it because it allows the waving/"guilty" hand to be perfectly flat. And then the hand is in perfect position to execute a L'homme Masque load, as you suggested.

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Re: Thoughts on the Vanish of a Coin

Postby Michael Rubinstein » December 16th, 2020, 1:26 pm

Ahhhh, I MEANT thumb palm (hand slap against forehead). Yes, from there you can wave a flat hand with fingers open, and easy to get in and out. Do NOT use finger palm (editor, please correct my prior post!!).


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