Opinions on initial Wild Card display

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erdnasephile
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Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby erdnasephile » May 23rd, 2020, 5:28 pm

So, after all of the recent talk, I decided to work up a wild card routine and I have a question.

Many wild card routines start out with a Hamman-type count. I dislike the technique as for some reason, it has never looked very natural to me even as a kid. (If you want to display that many cards, why don't you just fan them out?) Plus, even in expert hands, that exchange frequently has enough of a hitch in it to be a tell.

That's why I think Peter Samelson's handling is a really nice solution. It appears very casual, gets the point across without overproving. He even justifies the standard 1/2 face up and 1/2 face down layout in his presentation.

The downside is the spectator doesn't get a full look at every card that you do in a count. Also, for some, the necktie second is offputting and furtive appearing.

In spite of this, I like this opening display, but I'm wondering if I'm in the minority and if I'm overlooking something better out there in print.

Thoughts?

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Bob Farmer » May 23rd, 2020, 5:51 pm

Yes, I hate the Hamman count too for the opening. The solution is to break up the displays. So, show some of the cards using, say, a Rumba Count and then use a different count, maybe an Elmsley, for the remainder of the cards. The odd card would not be part of these counts. This is exactly the approach I used in my, "Headhunter," routine which is basically a sort of Wild Card Monte.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 23rd, 2020, 6:03 pm

Or you can use Racherbaumer's idea. See Taming the Wild Card in New Tops, september 1991

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Kent Gunn » May 23rd, 2020, 6:16 pm

Do this.

https://youtu.be/JTpNTWVlC-E

Plus, at 1:54 you can see all the backs again.

Just sayin'

PS. All tricks are imperfect. Pick your battles. A Hamman count can be done flawlessly, just not by me.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Ian Kendall » May 23rd, 2020, 6:46 pm

My solution to the Hamman count's rhythm problem was to break it down, both in terms of the counting and the plane.

The cards are held as usual in a right hand Biddle type grip. The left hand peels off the top card, and brings it up so that it is at mid chest level, facing the audience. That's the first card. This is repeated three times, then the switch, and then the next three cards (I use a seven card set, natch).

Maybe this short informative video will help to clarify that a wee bit...

https://youtu.be/eRUnI5tLgos

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Kent Gunn » May 23rd, 2020, 7:18 pm

Ian,

To quote an amateur magician,

A Hamman count can be done flawlessly,

Your handling looks great.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Ian Kendall » May 23rd, 2020, 7:29 pm

Eye thangoo.

For a slightly more normal, regular count version, try this:

https://youtu.be/nA5JtjMpBzQ

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 24th, 2020, 8:35 am

I found that a french magician named DURATY described a solution without Hamman Count or glide in his book Frissons Magiques (Magic Thrills) published in 1980. It's very easy and ingenious.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Bob Farmer » May 24th, 2020, 8:42 am

The problem with a Hamman Count, even if done flawlessly, is it is too "tight,"--some angles for the audience are obscured, especially on the right. There is another solution I've used. You have a second packet that is made up of, say, 7 blank cards and 1 printed card (the wild card). You do a trick with that packet and then switch it for the other, gaffed packet. The trick is this: you show the packet but not the faces. The regular card is on top. They point to a card, you place it on top and double lift to show the card (the regular). Now you announce its identity. No one is impressed because they think all the cards are the same. Now you deal them out to show they aren't. Gather up, pocket for a beat, then suddenly remember another trick.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Ian Kendall » May 24th, 2020, 9:23 am

The problem with a Hamman Count, even if done flawlessly, is it is too "tight,"--some angles for the audience are obscured, especially on the right.


Bob, I think I have solved that with my first handling. Although in the video I was working to the camera, in life it's easy to show the cards around as you count them off; in fact, this enhances the deception quite a bit.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby MagicbyAlfred » May 24th, 2020, 10:42 am

Ian's handling on both versions of the count look smooth and deceptive to me.

I don't believe laymen are going to question why the cards were displayed one-by-one, rather than in a spread, particularly if we are showing them a specific number of cards that are being used.

Other thoughts:
Ian's break-it-down version of the count is a very good ploy, adding a nice layer of timing and misdirection. Tommy Wonder breaks up the count (three cards, then three more) in his "Tamed Cards" and the method is beautifully built into the presentation and the use of his watch. He even subtly shows the backs of the cards when he looks at his watch mid-way through the count. There is a devious, but apparently natural, reason for virtually everything Tommy does in a routine. It is a beauty to behold - and learn from. Years ago, at a lecture given by the great Roger Klause, I learned the value of what he described as "half moves." Roger was using his method for the barehanded lit cigarette vanish to illustrate the principle. Ian and Tommy's counts are good examples of applying the half-move principle to a count. When the move is divided up, the spectator's attention also becomes essentially divided, and the laser beam focus of the hands being burned is diffracted.

Both Tommy and Eric Dekamps ("The Jokers are Wild") have the wild card "selected" by a spectator, rather than already being among the other cards in the packet/wallet. In my opinion, this is a good psychological ploy that will take heat off the initial display or count of the cards. That is, the cards that are counted/displayed are apparently just a bunch of the same card and the spectator is therefore not on the alert to try to distinguish whether or not there is more than one "different" card among those in the packet.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the good old Glide, if it is done cleanly and smoothly. It is deceiving to laymen, and is a natural procedure within the context of alternatively laying out the cards in a face-down, face-up display.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Paco Nagata » May 24th, 2020, 11:07 am

erdnasephile wrote:I dislike the technique as for some reason, it has never looked very natural to me even as a kid. (If you want to display that many cards, why don't you just fan them out?)

With all my respect and humble opinion, I reckon that you ask yourself that question because you see it as a magician, so then, you invetigate to try other things (which is a good thing, of course).
That happened to me too. However, honestly, I don't think that spectators that see a "Hamman Count" would ask themselves why the magician don't show the cards by a fan (as Alfred said); they would just pay attention to what the magician do.
I've never had problems with it regarding suspicions by my people, providing that I have practised it a lot and done it flawlessly.

Ian Kendall has done a good job. His way is similar to the way I have always been performing the Count. Maybe that's why I think he did a good job ;-)

In addition, an interesting thing would be to use just diferent methods randomly, à la Slydini, to confused more. I mean, a "Wild Cards" using "Hamman Count" and in other ocassion the same routine using other techniques, and so on.
Different techniques for a same trick / routine keeps spectators away from thinking about the method (s).

I back up looking for other methods to improve. However I think that unnatural moves can become natural as you perform them time to time.

Is "Olram Move" natural? Which is an alternative move for a "Wild Cards" routine as well.
(Almost) everything can be natural if you make it looks like so (at least in you).
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Ian Kendall » May 24th, 2020, 11:19 am

In addition, an interesting thing would be to use just diferent methods randomly, à la Slydini, to confused more. I mean, a "Wild Cards" using "Hamman Count" and in other ocassion the same routine using other techniques, and so on.
Different techniques for a same trick / routine keeps spectators away from thinking about the method (s).


Heh. In one of the early Basic Training columns, where I taught my handling for the Hamman count, I added a wee coda with my handling from a dealing grip (or, more accurately, mimicking a Ghost count). I was quite chuffed with the move, and then it was pointed out to me that I had reinvented Alex Elmsley's Neverchange count :)

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Yehuda » May 24th, 2020, 11:34 am

Ian, that handling is great. Not just for the Hamman Count specifically, but for most Biddle-type actions. It’s not so much about the speed or even the plane on which you display the card, rather it’s mostly about calling attention - emphasizing the “beat” - when the card is away from the other hand. Holding it up, as you have, is a good way to do that.

I first saw Jon Armstrong apply this same thing to the classic Biddle Trick, and I think it’s far superior to the regular standard rhythm of Biddle-stealing.

Yehuda

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Kent Gunn » May 24th, 2020, 3:16 pm

I never thought a layman would question whether he'd ever seen all the faces, during Wildcard. (Which is different from Gyp$y Curse)

During the revelations of the cards changing, you clearly show all the faces. Quit worrying about how lousy the Hamman Count is. Dispatch it to the rubbish heap where it belongs, for this trick.

When are all the backs shown in your routine? They're not. Showing both sides of all the cards subliminally reinforces the cards are normal. If you can switch them out at the end you'll have a good trick. I don't have a good trick, with my version yet, but at least I'm not on the well-trodden path.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 24th, 2020, 6:11 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:I found that a french magician named DURATY described a solution without Hamman Count or glide in his book Frissons Magiques (Magic Thrills) published in 1980. It's very easy and ingenious.
Please describe the outline of his approach??

At the moment I'm wondering about adding the wild card to the packet before any displays - shuffling it (overhand shuffle) into the middle then doing the Hamman as a display of the faces before the magic begins.
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Ian Kendall » May 24th, 2020, 6:22 pm

I'm pretty sure that the Racherbaumer book has a routine at the end called the 'Dealer's Delight' or somesuch, which has no sleights in it at all.

It's years since I've read the book; can anyone confirm?

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Chas Nigh » May 24th, 2020, 7:03 pm

Does anyone still do Derek Dingle's version of Gypsy Curse? I think it has WC beat by a mile and they see all backs at the finish. Plus no Biddle Count.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 25th, 2020, 12:19 am

The count at the start of Dingle's routine looks challenging.

About the Racherbaumer book - the Wild Card Kit: on Page 53 is an "easy" routine with no sleights and credits to Gene Castillion Mike Dubreuil. The one handed item on page 66 looks useful for starting a routine. The last item in the book uses blank cards where you put a sticker on one and they all wind up with stickers.
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 25th, 2020, 1:42 am

Ian Kendall wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Racherbaumer book has a routine at the end called the 'Dealer's Delight' or somesuch, which has no sleights in it at all.

It's years since I've read the book; can anyone confirm?


The routine with "no sleight at all" is Taming the Wild Card described first in New Tops then in Wild Card Kit:

Here are Racherbaumer's words:

"This non-sleight version has Impressed magicians and has given new life to an enduring classic* This routine was a highlight of the 1991 Abbottss C lose- Up Magic Convention* It Incorporates Ideas by Peter Kane, Edward Marlo, Stewart Judah and Gene Castilion."

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 25th, 2020, 1:49 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Philippe Billot wrote:I found that a french magician named DURATY described a solution without Hamman Count or glide in his book Frissons Magiques (Magic Thrills) published in 1980. It's very easy and ingenious.
Please describe the outline of his approach??

At the moment I'm wondering about adding the wild card to the packet before any displays - shuffling it (overhand shuffle) into the middle then doing the Hamman as a display of the faces before the magic begins.


I don't remember if you read French. Because the trick is based on a humouristic patter which permets some unnatural moves.

As I have your email, I can send it to you. Say "Yes" or "No". If not, I'll try to translate it (in Globish).

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 25th, 2020, 3:02 pm

Yes please, I would like to read the original French. Thank you.
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Bob Farmer » May 25th, 2020, 4:06 pm

You can use Google translate to render it into English.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 25th, 2020, 4:45 pm

But jokes are difficult to translate from one language to another and I doubt that "Google" will do it correctly

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 25th, 2020, 6:44 pm

Wild and Easy :) DURATY manages the packet display at the start without dealing cards to the table. He gets the premise and some humor started before showing the "wild" card. Bravo for him.
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Edward Pungot » May 25th, 2020, 8:04 pm

L'Origine du monde

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 25th, 2020, 8:16 pm

Okay Edward, where is that fan display setup published earlier? Let's not beat about the bush - citation?
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Edward Pungot » May 25th, 2020, 9:41 pm

Context and rhythm is all.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Edwin Corrie » May 26th, 2020, 2:52 am

Duraty's initial display is a bit like Shigeo Takagi's from his Wild Card manuscript (also in "Amazing Miracles of Shigeo Takagi"), except that Duraty holds all the pairs in a fan instead of tabling them one by one. Like with a Flushtration count you get a strong impression of having seen all the faces.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 26th, 2020, 3:08 am

Yes, we can call it a Topsy Turvy Flushtration Count but I think Duraty's patter is also important

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 26th, 2020, 3:11 pm

The patter and the display are eccentric. A few lines set the character and mood while the props are set in place.
Opening email again today I found the text in English and briefly wondered if iphones now do that. Thank you again Philippe.

What does Durarty say after the fake ten (AS) has ruined his collection?
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 26th, 2020, 6:07 pm

Oops, missed on DURATY and "globish" as relevant to card magic with an i place of the l. Sorry :(

Talking about the cards as you display them makes sense. The procedure in Duraty's routine is sensible. Have you come across better?

True story: Typing "globish to latin translation" into google returned a top result claiming "Bangala" use and the phrase translates to "Globish is Latin". https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... ranslation
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby EdwinCorrie » May 26th, 2020, 6:45 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:What does Durarty say after the fake ten (AS) has ruined his collection?


He says it's hard to find really perfect tens of diamonds for his collection - some have 9 spots, some 7, etc. Sometimes someone tries to slip him really badly made fakes (AS), which he has learned to recognise at first glance. When that happens he has to get rid of them as soon as possible, before they contaminate the others.

Philippe's right that the patter is a strong point of the routine.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby MagicbyAlfred » May 26th, 2020, 8:59 pm

Paco Nagata Wrote: Is "Olram Move" natural? Which is an alternative move for a "Wild Cards" routine as well.
(Almost) everything can be natural if you make it looks like so (at least in you).

So true, Paco. And the "at least in you part" is critical, since we all have certain moves that it seems we were born to do and others that are more awkward for us than a 13-year-old asking out the girl of his dreams. I have always loved the Olram move, and as dirty as I am after a couple phases of 8-card Brainwave, I have never had anyone examine or ask to examine the cards. Even if they did ask, I would let them, because the worst they would see is 4 red-backed and 4 blue-backed cards, and that would be far better than immediately pocketing the cards or putting them in a wallet immediately after the effect, or refusing a request to look at the cards.

It's a funny thing, but if you act like you have nothing to hide, and act like you don't care if they examine, they don't feel inclined to do so. Human psychology is endlessly fascinating, and continually revealed through magic. I have a perfect clean-up for my Pen Through Anything/Pen Through Dollar, where I can leave all on openly the table at the end, as if to say (but without saying), "Go ahead, check it out." But they never do. In any event, Olram is a strong and extremely deceptive move, and as you suggest, just fine in the context of a Wild Card routine.

Here's a nice (IMHO) demonstration of the Olram Move/Subtlety:
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/v ... tion=click

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 27th, 2020, 12:35 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:

What does Durarty say after the fake ten (AS) has ruined his collection?



We never know because he is too lazy to finish the story!

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Philippe Billot » May 27th, 2020, 1:26 am

Paco Nagata Wrote: Is "Olram Move" natural? Which is an alternative move for a "Wild Cards" routine as well.
(Almost) everything can be natural if you make it looks like so (at least in you).

One of the first best application of the Olram Move is the trIck "The Odd-Colored Back" by Nick Trost described in New Tops, Vol. 10, no. 8, august 1970. All the moves seem justified.

Everybody know this trick. Why? Because two years later, Frank Garcia (re)described it under the name of "Eight Card Brainwave" in his book Million Dollar Card Secrets (in 1972).

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Paco Nagata » May 27th, 2020, 4:46 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:It's a funny thing, but if you act like you have nothing to hide, and act like you don't care if they examine, they don't feel inclined to do so. Human psychology is endlessly fascinating, and continually revealed through magic. I have a perfect clean-up for my Pen Through Anything/Pen Through Dollar, where I can leave all on openly the table at the end, as if to say (but without saying), "Go ahead, check it out." But they never do.

That's a very interesting point, Alfred. Maybe there isn't a more unnatural thing that a NERVOUS MAGICIAN; why to be nervous if you are a magician?
On the contrary, when you don't have anything to hide you can play the role on purpose of being a little bit nervous, so that, forcing some "evil" spectator to take something to examine by him/herself and finding out that there are anything rare!


Philippe Billot wrote:One of the first best application of the Olram Move is the trIck "The Odd-Colored Back" by Nick Trost described in New Tops, Vol. 10, no. 8, august 1970. All the moves seem justified.
Everybody know this trick. Why? Because two years later, Frank Garcia (re)described it under the name of "Eight Card Brainwave" in his book Million Dollar Card Secrets (in 1972).

Another great lesson of magic culture!
I knew that "Eight Card Brainwave" was created by Nick Trost, but didn't know that the original name was "The Odd-Colored Back" from "New Tops."
As always, a million thanks for your pieces of information, Philippe!
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby erdnasephile » May 27th, 2020, 10:29 am

Philippe Billot wrote:I found that a french magician named DURATY described a solution without Hamman Count or glide in his book Frissons Magiques (Magic Thrills) published in 1980. It's very easy and ingenious.


I wanted to thank M. Billot for this reference and for the translation. Your contributions to all of us are greatly appreciated! (And thanks to all of those contributing to this thread---lots of food for thought here).

In studying this, I think it bears a lot of similarity to Shigeo Takagi's opening display in "Wild Time" (The Amazing Miracles of Shigeo Takagi, pg 19). The main differences being that Takagi-san chose to lay out the cards a pair at a time, while M. Duraty holds them all in a fan for display. M. Duraty also chooses to spread the cards out before the counting display. The Duraty presentation does justify the unorthodox movements.

Back to my original question for a moment: has anyone used the Samelson opening moves for a real audience? How did it work for you?

As I said, I rather like it as the second deals don't bother me. However, my next show got changed to a remote show over Zoom. I think I'm going to present this routine under a document camera. The document camera points straight down, and if I do those necktie seconds, my hands are going to go off camera, which might look suspicious. Therefore, a Takagi/Duraty-type sequence may be a better way to go. I'll experiment with this and see.

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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 27th, 2020, 3:17 pm

Peter Samelson is a professional magician who does shows most days of the year. He's been using his Wild Card as written for real audiences for many decades.
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Re: Opinions on initial Wild Card display

Postby Bill Duncan » May 27th, 2020, 9:51 pm

Some time back there was a video on the net (YouTube if I recall correctly) of Peter doing the routine for his director, or acting coach. He performed the routine and she gave some notes.

It was wonderful.


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