Credit help

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Frank Yuen
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Credit help

Postby Frank Yuen » February 2nd, 2020, 6:18 pm

Looking for a credit for an effect I knew years ago.

The basic methodology involves a face down 16 card grid (4x4 layout). One card is turned face up in each row. This is apparently random but actually it is not. The spectator picks one of the outside rows or columns and it is flipped over onto the adjacent row or column as if folding the edge of a piece of paper over. This continues until a single packet is made. When spread, all the cards are face up except for four cards which have been forced.

Cannot for the life of me remember where I learned this although for some reason Takagi comes to mind. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Credit help

Postby Brad Henderson » February 2nd, 2020, 6:42 pm

Roberto giobbi uses this in a trick about a tapestry maker in one of the self working card books he put out. Hamman used it as well. So has bannon.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 2nd, 2020, 7:16 pm

Sounds like Martin Gardner.
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Frank Yuen
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Re: Credit help

Postby Frank Yuen » February 2nd, 2020, 8:38 pm

Brad, many thanks! Although it's definitely not where I first encountered this, I have and can check the Giobbi books. The word "tapestry" strikes a chord and sounds familiar to me and now I think it might have been in Apocalypse where I first saw this. I can check there as well.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Bill Mullins » February 2nd, 2020, 8:59 pm

Lennart Green has a trick very similar to this, I believe. Check his "Northern Lights" lecture notes.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Brad Henderson » February 2nd, 2020, 9:42 pm

I saw a trick that hamman had come up with that used this principle. I later learned it predates him to a name that I recall being very familiar with but can’t place it.

I believe in the hamman trick the spectator selects a card or cards by turning them over. In the giobi version the four kinds are produced. I taught this at my classes one season. The kids LOVED it and still talk about it as being one of the favorites.

Karl king the tapestry maker.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Jack Shalom » February 2nd, 2020, 11:41 pm

Isn't that discussed pretty extensively in Dear Mr Fantasy by Bannon? Based on a Bob Hummer parity principle, IIRC. HL called it "Really!"

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Re: Credit help

Postby Edwin Corrie » February 3rd, 2020, 2:45 am

Mr. Koenig's Tapestry by Richard Vollmer in Apocalypse Vol. 14 No. 3

Martin Gardner described his Paradox Papers in Pallbearers' Review (1971) but the principle goes back to an old Henry Dudeney postage stamp folding puzzle.

There are quite a few variations around:
https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/category/2124

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Re: Credit help

Postby Tom Gilbert » February 3rd, 2020, 7:29 am

The Colombini's had this effect in their last lecture and gave credits, but I can't remember who....

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Re: Credit help

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 3rd, 2020, 2:54 pm

Yes, there are quite a few variations around. Regrettably, the only credit I can give is to the bartender who, over 20 years ago, taught me the version I know. In this version, a card is turned face-up in each of the four rows, but instead of folding whole rows at a time inward, just one card at a time is moved. If a card is moved vertically or horizontally, it is flipped over (face up or down whatever the case may be); if a card is moved diagonally, it is not flipped over. Eventually there will be piles of two or more cards, but the same exact rules apply to moving piles of multiple cards as applies to moving single cards. Cards or piles can also be moved into empty spaces, but movements of cards or piles can never be further than to an immediately adjacent card, pile or empty space. When all is said in done, there are four face-down cards - they are the aces! Brad is right, this is great for kids. I present it as a "magical game" where the winner will get the grand prize of one dollar. Each kid, in his/her successive turn, decides on a move. Since it ends up a 4-way tie, I give each kid a quarter and they're perfectly happy. Sometimes, I play this game with myself (hey, don't laugh, Bobby Fischer used to play chess with himself), and I am always amazed at the outcome.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Zig Zagger » February 3rd, 2020, 4:18 pm

A wonderful version with a great presentational idea, Alfred!

I just tried this for myself. It works like charm with the setup of the four Kings as described in the Vollmer trick in Giobbi's "Card College Lighter"!
Actually, each child could first choose their King and then try to keep him face up while trying to turn the other Kings face down. This would give the game a plot and create some suspense. And then, surprisingly, they all win!

Instead of playing cards, I could also see this play well with other flat objects, like Memory tiles or other game cards (like cars or Pokemons) which appeal more to children.
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Re: Credit help

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 3rd, 2020, 7:04 pm

Thank you, Zig Zagger! You also have some very nice creative ideas for the presentation. I can understand why Aldo is your favorite magician. He had (actually, I will say "has" because i never want to write off anyone) such a creative imagination and a way of coming up with fun, clever, entertaining and commercial routines.

I had another idea for the 16 cards. It can be made into a mentalism feat. You allow the spectator to shuffle and pick out any 16 cards they like. You keep the 16 cards in the same order in which they were given to you by spectator, and write down a "prediction." The prediction is simply to look though the cards and write down on a piece of paper the name of the first card (i.e. the top card of the 16-card packet), the sixth card, the eleventh card, and the sixteenth card of the packet. Then deal out the sixteen-card matrix, dealing the top row across, left to right, one card at a time, as in dealing hands of cards, then the second row beneath that one in the same manner, and then exactly the same with the third and fourth rows. At the end of the routine, the four cards that end up facing the opposite direction from the other twelve cards will match the prediction. As an added convincer, you can show them the prediction in the beginning, and let them verify that none of the four cards you have initially turned face up are any of the predicted ones. This will dispel any theory or speculation that you manipulated the outcome by simply turning the four predicted cards face up in the beginning.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Paco Nagata » February 4th, 2020, 1:51 am

I have always thought that the general idea of this wonderful card trick was Martin Gardner's, inspired (I guess) by the Hummer Parity Principle.

As Alfred said there are several variations, and his "Magical Game" is a wonderful presentation! As well as his prediction great idea! Thank you for sharing those ideas, Alfred!

I have been performing the Vollmer  presentation "Mr. Koenig's Tapestry" for my family members for many years, which is the version that I guess Zig Zagger (Jan) was refering to. Only I prefered to do it with 4 selected (forced) cards instead of with 4 Kings, since I've always believed that a card trick is more powerful if the "protagonist cards" are freely selected by the spectators.
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Re: Credit help

Postby Philippe Billot » February 4th, 2020, 4:13 am

Tom Gilbert wrote:The Colombini's had this effect in their last lecture and gave credits, but I can't remember who....


See Apocalypse, Vol. 13, no. 11, november 1990. Paradox.

In the explanation, Colombini gives some references: Gardner (of course) and Hen Fetsch for his marketed trick Kardcut.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Paco Nagata » February 4th, 2020, 4:30 am

Following the good ideas proposed by Alfred, how about presenting it as well as a "coincidence"?
The magician ask the spectator: "what's you four favourite picture cards?"
The spectator may say "The Queens" or "The Jacks" or "The Kings". He or she could choose them mixed up as well, for example: QH, KS, JD, QS.
Finally we arrange "casually and randomly" the "tapestry" in the proper way to get exactly the chosen cards at the end of the trick.
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Re: Credit help

Postby Philippe Billot » February 4th, 2020, 5:44 am

Review from The Bat no. 83, november 1950.

HEN FETSCH has just hit the Jackpot with another excellent trick. KARDCUT is a sheet of sixteen playing cards in two colors. One card is selected and the sheet then folded and cut. The black cards are shown to have been separated from the reds by this single cut and all hang together excepting one loose section, which when opened Is found to be red, and of course, the selected card. A most novel effect easily mastered for fifteen illustrations and marked, folded papers are furnished. Refills are also available at the same price of a dollar. Ten sheets with the original pack, twenty in the refills. Highly recommended.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Philippe Billot » February 4th, 2020, 6:16 am

The original, entitled Folding Postage Stamps, is Problem no. 214 in Modern Puzzles by Henry Dudeney, published in 1926.

And Gardner's Paradox Papers is in Pallbearers Review, July 1971.

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Re: Credit help

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 4th, 2020, 7:44 am

Paco, thank you for your kind words and acknowledgements. I really see your point and thinking behind doing the effect with 4 forced cards. There is certainly more of an emotional hook involved in presenting it that way. I also like your creative idea for the "coincidence" presentation.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Pete McCabe » February 4th, 2020, 1:08 pm

One of the interesting features of this trick—the Bannon version, anyway—is that it seems like a prediction without requiring a prediction. The spectator mixes a bunch of cards, and at the end, there are four cards face up, and they're all aces.

This factor might be lessened if the cards are all different. It might take the audience a few seconds to realize that these are the selections.

You can combine both ideas by having the spectators choose a value (as Paco indicated) and just use that four of a kind. That way there's a selection, but still an immediately readable climax.

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Re: Credit help

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 4th, 2020, 2:47 pm

This started out as an inquiry as to who deserves credit. However, after reading the interesting and creative posts on this trick, which seems to have almost unlimited presentational potential, I think the contributors to the thread deserve a lot of credit. It's certainly got my creative juices flowing. Following along the idea of having a spectator pick out his/her favorite court cards (the Kings, Queens or Jacks), it could be presented as a "Magical Aptitude Test." The spectator makes all the moves using their "magical intuition," with no idea of where the trick is going, or of the truly magical ending that is in store. The intrigued spectator is center stage, playing the lead role, and is emotionally invested in the trick. At the end, the spectator can be congratulated for getting a "perfect score" on the test, and the magician can point out that they would have a great future in magic if they decide to pursue it.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Zig Zagger » February 4th, 2020, 3:46 pm

I agree, lot‘s of great ideas here! Thank you for sharing, gentlemen!

Yet I feel that wrapping this principle into playing cards only is a bit of a stretch and „cardmen‘s thinking.“ (And telling a story of an expensive tapestry with a hidden mark, embodied by playing cards? In 2020? Not sure about the power of that hook...)

How about using 16 numbers and combining this effect with a Magic Square, either as an intro or as an extra kicker?

How about using 16 beer mats (4 each of 4 brands) for a bar bet or bar trick? Just drop 4 bottle caps of the „winning“ brand (or 4 different ones) as a hidden prediction into the fist of a spectator, and you are ready to play...
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Re: Credit help

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 4th, 2020, 4:37 pm

I really like the beer mats with the bottle caps prediction idea. Perfect for a bar (a venue I find myself in quite often these days). IMHO, the four matching mats ending is a significantly stronger climax than one of each kind. The four matching has more of an element of impossibility to it, although I imagine that the odds of the four-matching outcome are the same as the odds of the one of each kind outcome (Bill Mullins?). It's just that to spectators, who are not math aficionados (i.e. the great majority), an ending with one of each kind of mat is likely to create more of an impression of just a random outcome (even though it was the ending that was correctly predicted), or people may believe it is an outcome that has a much higher chance of occurring than four matching mats, while I think the four matching is more likely to hit people right between the eyes - magically speaking.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Zig Zagger » February 4th, 2020, 4:57 pm

Good thinking, Alfred! I agree.
Would be nice to hear how it plays in real life for you!
And yes, the odds should be the same.
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Re: Credit help

Postby Paco Nagata » February 4th, 2020, 5:23 pm

Zig Zagger wrote:How about using 16 beer mats (4 each of 4 brands) for a bar bet or bar trick? Just drop 4 bottle caps of the „winning“ brand (or 4 different ones) as a hidden prediction into the fist of a spectator, and you are ready to play...

That's a very good one!
If I were still in my "young single age" I would perform that version immediatelly for my people at any bar! But, at the present time I prefer to use your idea of Pokemon cards with my little boy!
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Re: Credit help

Postby Zig Zagger » February 6th, 2020, 2:14 am

This principle is really versatile and would be wasted on „playing cards only.“

You could use any stack of thematic photos or postcards.

You could use a stack of loose pages from a paperback novel, turning half of them by 180 degrees. This would make a powerful quadruple force for mindreading.

Maybe this could even work as an impromptu beach trick with eight pairs of flip-flops.

The most organic application for folding and turning over would probably be a city or country map.
However, I think you‘d need to cut out the pieces in advance and reconnect them with small clear tape hinges, which could be cut easily once the stack is reassembled.

Any other ideas before we fold here?
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Re: Credit help

Postby No44 » February 6th, 2020, 9:54 am

I've used photographs for a short routine, and I've played around with the idea of using Tarot cards.

I've made a sheet of possible readings and meanings from 16 cards, and as I set up the cards, I set up the hand that will be face up at the end for a specific reading. It's no genuine tarot reading, but you can easily change the hand dealt to be a more appropriate reading(according to the sheet.)

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Reinhard Mueller
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Re: Credit help

Postby Reinhard Mueller » April 21st, 2020, 5:08 am

The effect "Königs Teppich" -- "King's Taprestry" was shown to Camilo Vazquez Aleman by the late Volkmar Mrasek on November, 3, 1984 at the Jornadas Carto Magicas in Escorial/Madrid.

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Re: Credit help

Postby Reinhard Mueller » April 30th, 2020, 12:41 pm

I have just found two trick descriptions from a letter from Nick Trost to me on January 5, 2004, relating to this 4 by 4 square of 16 cards.
In 1991 Nick Trost published the QUADRAPLEX effect. Nick wrote that the basic principle goes back to Shigeo Takagi, who uses it in one of his videos.
Nick sent me with his letter important (!) additions to Quadraplex: a "No Set-up Method" (Tom Craven) and "The Single-Card Turnover" (Al Thatcher).

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Re: Credit help

Postby Bill Mullins » May 3rd, 2020, 9:15 pm

Denis Behr has a page on the Tapestry effect.


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