Your Views on Cups & Balls and One Cup Routines

[Kent Gunn]

You guys are firmly in the two cup camp. You're all about impromptu props. I know the cups routine I do, with three cups would not work table hopping.
I LOVE the Carl Andrews routine and how it segues into sponges.

For me, the cups and balls have real gravitas. I did the Vernon routine since high school. That version remains my favorite in the hands of Jared Kopf or his sorely missed mentor.

A two cup routine is not enough for me.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I hope everyone is doing well and keeping their spirits up during this challenging time, which I am predicting will disappear before too long!

Kent, "gravitas" is a great word and really does beautifully describe the aura and pedigree surrounding the traditional classic cups and balls. When conditions permit, I like nothing more (well, there may be some things I like more) than to take out my mirror-shiny Sherwood cups (all 3 of them), the lovely custom made balls Brett had made to go with, and my trusty wand, and to carry on the tradition. I use a lime, an orange, a potato or apple, and a lemon as final loads, and the reaction to the routine, and obviously especially the ending, is always gratifying. I do not rotely follow the Vernon routine, although that was the foundational routine, as taught to me by the great Bill Malone. Of course, even Vernon published an impromptu (sort of) version of the cups and balls, which was published in Stars of Magic. Although the sequences and patter remained true to the original.

Vernon was a proponent of adapting to each environment, and as Kent points out, a formal 3-cup cups and balls routine is not generally suitable for table hopping. I find one cup to be just right. I originally used one form of chop cup or another, but recently, I have found that a coffee cup or mug, with grapes, cherries or olives as the "balls" works wonderfully at a table or at the bar. A good finger palm and some subtlety dispenses with the need for a magnet. Here is a performance using the "Ickle Pickle Chalice" chop cup at Ricardos in Santa Rosa, CA, where I had the privilege to work for 3 and 1/2 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVaZ8evyG6o

[Kent Gunn]

Alfred,

Your cup routine looks like it entertains the snot out of your audience. Don Alan's simplicity and direct plot comprise one of Magic's most seminal pieces. You do it with an easy mastery.

KG

[Jack Shalom]

Here is a performance using the "Ickle Pickle Chalice" chop cup at Ricardos in Santa Rosa, CA, where I had the privilege to work for 3 and 1/2 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVaZ8evyG6o

"You couldn't have palmed a lemon!" I really like how you use their incomplete knowledge against themselves. And it is interesting that they *do* have a notion of palming.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Kent & Jack - Thank you for your kind comments and observations! It's been a work in progress for a long time, and I know there's still plenty of room for improvement...

[Bill Mullins]

Having the right audience is at least as important:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z61btQtYBY

(PS -- what is the proper way to use the "youtube" button on the Editor & Preview screen?)

[MagicbyAlfred]

Having the right audience is at least as important:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z61btQtYBY

(PS -- what is the proper way to use the "youtube" button on the Editor & Preview screen?)

Priceless and hilarious!

This has got me thinking that it might be a good idea to incorporate such Pavlovian principles in performing the cups for humans. The "treats" could be Hershey Kisses or some other wrapped candy, and if they guess right (maybe some, but not all of the time) they get the treat. A fun way to get them involved and motivated. A new twist on Vernon's emotional hook?

[Joe Lyons]

(PS -- what is the proper way to use the "youtube" button on the Editor & Preview screen?)

Pretty sure you were using it right, it doesnt seem to be configured for this site.

The same tags imbed the video correctly on the green site.

[Zig Zagger]

The "treats" could be Hershey Kisses or some other wrapped candy, and if they guess right (maybe some, but not all of the time) they get the treat. A fun way to get them involved and motivated.

A funny idea, Alfred! And if they miss the Kisses, they will have to eat your lemon!

Now, statistically speaking, three cups will improve your chances for a big laugh here significantly over two cups!

[MagicbyAlfred]

The "treats" could be Hershey Kisses or some other wrapped candy, and if they guess right (maybe some, but not all of the time) they get the treat. A fun way to get them involved and motivated.

A funny idea, Alfred! And if they miss the Kisses, they will have to eat your lemon!

Now, statistically speaking, three cups will improve your chances for a big laugh here significantly over two cups!

Good point Zig Zagger! Of course, I have learned that sometimes, no matter what you do, the whole trick goes sour!

[Al Schneider]

You have heard a bit from me recently.
Some probably know I had massive heart surgery.
I never really recovered.
I am just getting used to all the new disabilities I have acquired.
Like typing with my thumbs.
I would like to share a recent thought relative to this thread.
In my understanding of the mind, I assume it keeps video scripts in its memory bank.
Then, while observing events, a trigger causes one of these scripts to play in the person's head.
That is, instead of analyzing all the person is observing, a tiny picture in the observation triggers a script.
Then, playing a script enables the person to respond faster.
You know, like when a tiger pounces on you from behind.
I have a strong feeling that the way I transfer a coin is a trigger that plays a script of a coin falling into the hand.
So, in fact, the observer will see a real coin (in their head) in the hand.
Note, there was a real coin when the script was created.

Interestingly, scripts vary from person to person.

Also, some triggers indicate something wrong.

In this theory something like retention vanishes do this.
As retention vanishes are unusual, people tend not to have scripts for them.
So, people then analyze the move, and can challenge it.
Mental scripts are not challenged.
They can be rescinded but initially they are accepted.
But there might be a trigger in the move that says something is wrong.

Anyway, it is food for thought.
I won't be putting this in any book soon so you have my latest.

[Tarotist]

I am tempted to write a book on the cups and balls since I have several routines of my own conception. I probably won't bother though since I dislike explaining sleight of hand moves. I can do it reasonably well but it is not an easy thing to do and I just don't have the patience for it.

[Tilman]

You have heard a bit from me recently.
Some probably know I had massive heart surgery.
I never really recovered.
I am just getting used to all the new disabilities I have acquired.
Like typing with my thumbs.
I would like to share a recent thought relative to this thread.
In my understanding of the mind, I assume it keeps video scripts in its memory bank.
Then, while observing events, a trigger causes one of these scripts to play in the person's head.
That is, instead of analyzing all the person is observing, a tiny picture in the observation triggers a script.
Then, playing a script enables the person to respond faster.
You know, like when a tiger pounces on you from behind.
I have a strong feeling that the way I transfer a coin is a trigger that plays a script of a coin falling into the hand.
So, in fact, the observer will see a real coin (in their head) in the hand.
Note, there was a real coin when the script was created.

Interestingly, scripts vary from person to person.

Also, some triggers indicate something wrong.

In this theory something like retention vanishes do this.
As retention vanishes are unusual, people tend not to have scripts for them.
So, people then analyze the move, and can challenge it.
Mental scripts are not challenged.
They can be rescinded but initially they are accepted.
But there might be a trigger in the move that says something is wrong.

Anyway, it is food for thought.
I won't be putting this in any book soon so you have my latest.

Dear Mr. Schneider,

The idea that some moves trigger scripts in the spectator's mind, while others don't, is certainly food for thought.
I am sorry to read of your heart surgery and newly acquired disabilities and am mainly coming to this thread to wish you the best possible health!

Tilman Andris

[Al Schneider]

Thank you Mr. Andris.
Looking back, I think I have spent my life seeking experiences.
One day, a few years ago a doctor gave me a choice, die in a week or operate.
I chose the later with the thought it would be an interesting experience.
And something else I would like you to know.
When I was 17 I started college and was introduced to magic. Nine years passed doing odd jobs before I got a degree. I hung with magicians while studying magic and physics. Magic was my family. Your comment is very valuable to me.

[Jonathan Townsend]

I am tempted to write a book on the cups and balls since I have several routines of my own conception. I probably won't bother though since I dislike explaining sleight of hand moves. I can do it reasonably well but it is not an easy thing to do and I just don't have the patience for it.

These days we have some tools to get a running start at documenting a routine. Have someone who's seen the routine performed a few times help you start the process by recording video on their cell phone. Stage view, i.e. keeping the top of your head down to the front of your closeup working surface in frame all the way through. If your routine has direct audience interaction then have a third person there as your volunteer. Discussion of preparations, particulars, and preferences can be recorded after. Recording a second audio track with commentary may also work in your favor.

[Tarotist]

I am tempted to write a book on the cups and balls since I have several routines of my own conception. I probably won't bother though since I dislike explaining sleight of hand moves. I can do it reasonably well but it is not an easy thing to do and I just don't have the patience for it.

These days we have some tools to get a running start at documenting a routine. Have someone who's seen the routine performed a few times help you start the process by recording video on their cell phone. Stage view, i.e. keeping the top of your head down to the front of your closeup working surface in frame all the way through. If your routine has direct audience interaction then have a third person there as your volunteer. Discussion of preparations, particulars, and preferences can be recorded after. Recording a second audio track with commentary may also work in your favor.

No thanks! What a horrific thought!
I do thank you for your suggestion but alas it is not something I am drawn to. Here is my reasoning. I have already written three books where I had to describe technical moves. One was the Long and the Short of It. Two was my Marmaduke the Wonder Mouse book. And three was my most wondrous Annotated Royal Road to Card Magic. They have all received rave reviews and I was able to describe the technicalities quite successfully. I merely hated doing it but I could certainly do it.

However, with regard to your video suggestion not only would I hate doing it I wouldn't have the knowledge to do it either. It sounds more complex than nuclear physics. Thanks for the thought but no thanks for the invitation to the execution of the thought. I am a writer not a bloody videographer!

[Dave Le Fevre]

... I dislike explaining sleight of hand moves. I can do it reasonably well but it is not an easy thing to do and I just don't have the patience for it.

I've found exactly the same. What takes a second or three to execute takes an inordinate amount of time and effort to describe in words.

[Tarotist]

It is not an easy thing to do by any means. The clarity is the hardest thing. Trying to explain it so the reader can understand it is very difficult. I have even found the legendary magic authors such as Ganson and Hugard slip up occasionally. Not often thank goodness but just once in a while. I think the best author for clarity is Harry Lorayne and moreover he seems to enjoy the writing of technical moves. I can do it reasonably well but I find it tedious and it leads to writer's procrastination when I have to do it. That is probably the reason it took me a couple of years to write my Annotated Royal Road to Card Magic yet it only took me three weeks to write Streetwise Tarot! No finger flinging necessary with Tarot cards!

[MagicbyAlfred]

Al, I'm sorry to hear of your disabilities, but happy to hear of your (at least partial) recovery, as I know the many others who appreciate you and your wonderful and innovative contributions to the art of magic must be as well.