The Pass

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
performer
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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 28th, 2019, 8:30 am

You don't even have to do that. First do any trick where you control a card to the top via the pass. Watch their eyes. And do not shuffle. Gauge the reaction. You probably have to watch their eyes anyway to misdirect them. Now do another trick and watch their eyes again. Shuffle afterwards. Now watch their eyes when you shuffle. You will see the eyes relax and not only the eyes. Their whole body will relax.

There are three arguments in favour of shuffling.

1. In days of yore when the Pass was the only method of control the card was always palmed out and the deck given to audience members to shuffle. WHY?
2. Every single trick in the Royal Road Pass chapter advises shuffling afterwards.
3. This is the most powerful reason of all. Because I say so and every word I say on this matter should be taken as gospel.

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 28th, 2019, 9:07 am

If you palm well, nothing can instill stronger conviction in a layman/woman that a card is truly lost and out of the magician's control, than palming off the card controlled and relinquishing the deck to the spectator to shuffle. For all but the most cynical of spectators, this extinguishes any possibility in their mind that their card was manipulated or controlled in any way, or that a key card (a ruse widely known to laymen) was employed. Of course, the control itself, whether it is a pass or any other method, must itself be convincing. The problem with most passes I've observed is that they were not convincing, and a move was telegraphed. Once that happens, and suspicion is aroused, then anything you do afterward, no matter how well-executed, is futile.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 28th, 2019, 10:08 am

MagicbyAlfred, it's not so trivial to palm the selection in the same flow of action as collecting the pack to hand it out for shuffling. They've got the selection in hand. You've got the pack. Attention is on their card. Presuming there's some reason for them to replace the card into the pack in your routine - rather than proceeding along with some magic using their card...
The objective is to get them to feel they shuffled their card into the pack.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 28th, 2019, 10:18 am

I think that was my point. And the best (indeed, the only) way "to get them to feel they shuffled their card into the pack," is for them to shuffle

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erdnasephile
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Re: The Pass

Postby erdnasephile » June 28th, 2019, 12:28 pm

With respect, don't all of the effects (save one) in the Pass chapter of RRCM, shuffle after the pass because it's required to reposition the selected card for the purposes of the effect?

If so, wouldn't that seem to point to a inefficiency in using the pass as a control in those particular effects? That is, if you need the selected card 7th from the top after it's returned, the Pass wouldn't seem to be the most efficient way to get there. That is, a jog or lift shuffle gets you there without the extra move.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 28th, 2019, 1:01 pm

I shall sum up the matter and leave it at that. You do NOT need to do the Pass as a control method. There are a myriad of easier ways to control a card to the top of the pack. However, should you use it (and you probably shouldn't) then you must shuffle afterwards since I can assure that your pass is not as invisible as you think it is and even if you think you are getting away with it your probably aren't. But even if you are then you should still shuffle just in case. It doesn't hurt to shuffle and will probably help so you might as well do it.

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 28th, 2019, 5:00 pm

I see the point that Erdnasephile is making, and yes from an efficiency standpoint it makes sense. From my point of view, the overriding issue with any card control after a card has been selected is instilling conviction in the spectator that (1) you are not manipulating him or her to place it back where you indicate they should do so; and (2) that the card is truly lost in the pack.

Regarding consideration (1), there is an ever-present potential vulnerability for the magician, irrespective of whether he/she does a pass, a jog shuffle or any other control. I have seen professional magicians far more technically advanced than myself (in some cases very well-known and illustrious ones) cut the pack after a card has been selected and offer the bottom half for the spectator to place the selection back on top of that portion, and after that is done go into whatever control. Trust me when I say this is not good. I used to do it myself, until i was unceremoniously taught (more than once) by the more bold, brazen and outspoken laymen that they do not want to replace the card where the magician wants them to. This kind of education (school of hard knocks) is the advantage of working a lot in bars (along with the free booze LOL). Those spectators who don't protest or say anything, are more than likely just being polite when they acquiesce to placing the card where the magician wants them to. Laymen did not (contrary to the belief of many magicians) just fall off a turnip truck. The Royal Road, Expert Card Magic and other treatises emphasize that if you don't gain the spectator's conviction or if you lose it, all is lost. And I daresay it will not then matter how clever or astonishing the revelation may be.

As to point (2) above, as I have already opined, the cards must be shuffled after return of the selection, ideally by the spectator, but at minimum, convincingly so by the magician. Most of the time I won't even have a card selected, I will either use the spectator peek, a force, or glimpse it after it has been selected while still in the pack. Or, I will riffle until they say stop, dribble the remaining cards and go immediately into a shuffle, and often let them shuffle. Sometimes, I will pam it off and let them shuffle. If you say to a layman, "Pick a card" (or similar) many will think, and some will say, "I've seen that one."

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 28th, 2019, 7:45 pm

I agree that you should never tell a spectator to replace his card in a specific place. Hugard and Braue mention this as a matter of fact. Always give the people a choice where to replace the card either by spreading the cards or getting them to stop you shuffling.

With regard to palming the card off and getting a spectator to shuffle it is a superb procedure and in fact it was the only procedure available in the days of Professor Hoffmann. However, it has two drawbacks since nothing is perfect. One is that if you are a fast paced performer it can slow up the procedure as I have previously mentioned. The second drawback is a technical one. You have to do two difficult sleights. Actually three if you are using the pass. You have to palm a card undetected and even more difficult replace it undetected.
However, if you have the technical skill and sang-froid to do this it can be an excellent procedure. And if you are a decent showman you can overcome the slowing up of the action.

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Re: The Pass

Postby webbmaster » October 9th, 2019, 12:32 pm

Sideslip Palm or Sideslip Rear-Palm also good ways to avoid cuts or shuffles.

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Re: The Pass

Postby magicfish » October 13th, 2019, 10:00 am

"I always believe in simplifying the means of performing any
illusion. Thus, I have always taught amateurs to eliminate the pass
in card tricks.
is usual to receive back a chosen card on the lower half of the pack.
Then put the two halves together. Then make the pass. and then false
shuffle the cards. I suggest the pass, in this instance. is not necessary.
I receive back the card on the lower hali, bring the top half to it,
and keeping the two separated by the little finger of the left hand,
leave it thus for a few seconds. then separate them again by commenc-
ing a false shuffle. To do this I naturally take the top half of the pack
and drop it in front of the lower half. This leaves the chosen card
on top and you continue to false shuifle..."
-David Devant

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 13th, 2019, 7:14 pm

If you cannot do a very good Pass, then you don't understand the perfect clarity of having a card replaced in the center of the deck and not doing ANYTHING afterward. Same goes for the Side Steal.
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Paco Nagata
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Re: The Pass

Postby Paco Nagata » October 13th, 2019, 8:24 pm

magicfish wrote:"... To do this I naturally take the top half of the pack
and drop it in front of the lower half. This leaves the chosen card
on top and you continue to false shuifle..."
-David Devant

"Mahatma Control." Published in the magazine "Mahatma" (Vol. 5, No. 2 of August 1901, page 495) an article by Hal Merton.
https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... substitute
I have been ALL my life using this incredible easy, deceptive and effective card control since I was taught it by an uncle of mine when I was still a boy.
I highly recommend this control (Devant's version of it) if you have problems with the pass, or still you're mastering it.
"The Passion of an Amateur Card Magician"
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"La pasion de un cartómago aficionado"
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Bill Duncan
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Re: The Pass

Postby Bill Duncan » October 13th, 2019, 9:40 pm

Paco Nagata wrote:"Mahatma Control." Published in the magazine "Mahatma" (Vol. 5, No. 2 of August 1901, page 495) an article by Hal Merton.
https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... substitute


A big upvote for the Mahatma Control, or more specifically HaLo's version from The Magic Book, called In Lieu of the Pass. Basically, the Mahatma control continuing into a Slip Shuffle. You couldn't ask for a better general purpose control.

I first saw this on Mullica's video from Steven's Magic Emporium during his multiple selection routine. It's ideal for that sort of situation as you can control many cards and its feels like they are being lost rather than controlled.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 13th, 2019, 9:52 pm

Using the Pass is a higher level of artistic card handling than having a card replaced and then doing an Overhand Shuffle. The latter is essentially artless. It does the job and no more. It is not clever, it is not smart, and it is not art.
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Paco Nagata
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Re: The Pass

Postby Paco Nagata » October 15th, 2019, 5:25 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Using the Pass is a higher level of artistic card handling than having a card replaced and then doing an Overhand Shuffle. The latter is essentially artless. It does the job and no more. It is not clever, it is not smart, and it is not art.

That would lead to a new debate...

Definitively the Pass implies a higher level in the Art of Card Magic, however, if you use other method successfully it wouldn't make much difference. What I mean with "successfully" is just to get applause; to get the consideration as a card magician by your public.
You can use several methods depending on the circunstances; you don't have to choose one forever. For instance, I personally use the Pass when performing for adults, whereas for childdren it's ok other rudimentary method. In addition I NEVER use the Pass when I feel nervous, dizzy or the deck of cards are in bad contitions.
The important thing is to be successful with your show.
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 15th, 2019, 12:49 pm

Of course it makes a difference ... just like having the deck shuffled before you locate the four Aces (and palm them during the shuffle).
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Leo Garet
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Re: The Pass

Postby Leo Garet » October 16th, 2019, 10:51 am

I can’t recall when I first tried the Pass. It certainly wasn’t last week. For a variety of reasons I struggled to make it work satisfactorily; that is to my satisfaction. And still do. Nevertheless I can and do understand “the perfect clarity of having a card replaced in the center of the deck and not doing ANYTHING afterward”.

Regarding Art:

What is and isn’t Art is a subject that keeps on running; in and out of Magic. It always has been and always will be a subjective matter. Or to put it another way, a matter of opinion.

So this is me politely disagreeing with the Chief.

Paco Nagata
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Re: The Pass

Postby Paco Nagata » October 16th, 2019, 11:18 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Of course it makes a difference ... just like having the deck shuffled before you locate the four Aces (and palm them during the shuffle).

Certainly it makes technical differences, so to speak, for the magician.
I was refering to the result of a trick; you can select different methods to get the same effect, according to your preferences, but it would be irrelevant as long as you get that effect successfully.
In other words, if you do the Pass well you control the card imperceptibly. If you do the "Mahatma Control" well you get the same. The real problem would be to do them poorly.

Leo Garet wrote:So this is me politely disagreeing with the Chief.

I hope to have talked politely too!
It is a great honour for me to share thoughts with Richard Kaufman (for the first time in my life).
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 16th, 2019, 12:21 pm

It is not the same effect to a layperson if you use a Pass to control a card, or have the card returned to the deck and then shuffle it. If YOU get the same response from a laypers, it's your presentation and choreography that is lacking.

All of the comments about doing "other" types of controls are generally made by people who cannot do a Pass that cannot seen by a layperson. I know this because the first time a person successfully does an "invisible" Pass when controlling a chosen card, the immediate reaction is, "This is the only way I'm going to do this in the future."
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Re: The Pass

Postby Bob Coyne » October 16th, 2019, 2:37 pm

I agree with Richard. It's not as though effects are totally separate from methods. If the method involves shuffling the cards, then the shuffling itself becomes part of the effect. If you seem to do NOTHING, then the effect is more direct and stronger. Of course, if the pass is visible or requires excessive misdirection, then its deceptiveness is weakened and it's better to control the card by shuffling or some other means.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Paco Nagata » October 16th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Maybe I'm the exception that proves that "rule".

When I learned the Classic Pass I was 16. Since then I've never had any problem with it, BUT I didn't ignore other methods of controlling cards no matter how elementary they were, maybe because it never occurred to me to consider a Card Magic Technique as artless.

By the way, when you do the Pass and do "nothing" the card is NOT supposed to be lost; spectators know where is it approximately, and they know that the magician know it, unlike when you shuffle.

I'm just defending that mastering the Pass is not a reason for ignoring other techniques or methods as long as you get your spectators applause you because they are amazed.
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Re: The Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 16th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:That's the whole point. If you can use a pass correctly, then in the eyes of the spectator, nothing at all has happened; they replaced the card into the deck and that's it.
If your effect is to immediately show the card is now on top of the pack - agreed. So far the routine has a card selected, replaced and the pack assembled. What happens next?

Other uses for the pass include managing a 50/50 forcing pack, blocks of setup cards, a Devano gimmick... :)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 16th, 2019, 6:41 pm

I put an interesting version of "Everywhere and Nowhere" in print somewhere that relies entirely on the Pass. Can't be done any other way and look so clean.
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Paco Nagata
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Re: The Pass

Postby Paco Nagata » October 16th, 2019, 6:58 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I put an interesting version of "Everywhere and Nowhere" in print somewhere that relies entirely on the Pass. Can't be done any other way and look so clean.

The New York Magic Symposium - Collection 2 (p. 95) ;) I presume.
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 16th, 2019, 7:05 pm

Must be. Used to be able to do it really well.
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Roger M.
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Re: The Pass

Postby Roger M. » October 18th, 2019, 6:21 pm

I keep my Sony VHS player hooked up to my home theatre for three or four old VHS tapes I repeatedly go back to ... with Richard's "On The Pass" being one of them.
Everything I really learned (and that has stuck) about the Pass I learned off that VHS tape.
I see it's available on DVD now though ... it may be time to turn the VHS into a boat anchor?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 18th, 2019, 7:35 pm

I have a VHS tape deck, but it's not hooked up. Still have some BETA tapes of material, too.
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Bill Duncan
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Re: The Pass

Postby Bill Duncan » October 18th, 2019, 9:51 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Still have some BETA tapes of material, too.


I'm gonna guess it's the Balls routines and the Interlocked Production of Coins.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Ian Kendall » October 19th, 2019, 3:16 am

If your effect is to immediately show the card is now on top of the pack - agreed. So far the routine has a card selected, replaced and the pack assembled. What happens next?


Why are you limiting it?

If your effect requires controlling a card so you know where it is, the pass is a very efficient method. After that, you can do anything.

Paco Nagata
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Re: The Pass

Postby Paco Nagata » October 19th, 2019, 4:44 am

Ian Kendall wrote:If your effect requires controlling a card so you know where it is, the pass is a very efficient method. After that, you can do anything.

Mastering the Pass is not a reason for not using any other method to control a card, specially depending on the trick you are going to do; there are routines in which it's required to shuffle the deck precisely to strengthen the effect, as for exemple, The Professor's Triumph.
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Latest erratum corrections and improvements update, 6/12/2019.


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