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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 24th, 2018, 10:30 am
by Glenn Bish Bishop
Rob Dobson wrote: Andy 'unperforms' on a one-to-one basis with friends entirely informally; the focus of the magic he does is not him, the power does not reside in him - it's always somewhere else. Within that context he is not an expert card handler at all, and so it makes sense for him to understand how the person he's performing for would most naturally do 'X', and to then use that information to inform how he uses 'X' within a performance.


Andy Who?

And why should I consider any of his writing to be useful?

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 24th, 2018, 11:12 am
by richardingram
I think some of the disconnect is when an amateur performs in an amateur setting to people they are around frequently might need to use different techniques, setups, & premises than a professional performing in a professional setting.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 24th, 2018, 6:25 pm
by performer
I perform in both amateur and professional situations. Sometimes the manner of presenting is different but the actual technical maneuvers should be exactly the same. There is either a right way or a wrong way to do something. Remember that Vernon was essentially an amateur magician and he devised techniques that professionals are using to this day.

Besides whether you are an amateur or professional you should still be entertaining. If you aren't then there is absolutely no point doing magic in the first place.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 25th, 2018, 9:36 pm
by MagicbyAlfred
Performer Wrote: "Besides whether you are an amateur or professional you should still be entertaining. If you aren't then there is absolutely no point doing magic in the first place."

I agree.

I have found that about 1/3 of the people actually like being fooled; about 1/3 of the people hate it and find it super frustrating and irritating; and about 1/3 of the people seem to neither like it nor hate it.

But I have found that close to 100% like or love being entertained.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 25th, 2018, 10:50 pm
by performer
This point about entertaining was one of the very first things I learned when I was a kid taking up magic. I was lucky to find it out so early since so many magicians go through their whole lives never knowing how important it is. Sure they find out eventually and just pay lip service to the concept but never do a thing about it. I have even had various idiots tell me that the trick should be entertaining in and of itself and the presentation of the performer is of no consequence.

I read about this in the foreword of a beginner's book and remember it to this day. It was written by Wilfrid Jonson in 1949 and is just as valid today. Here it is:

"You should remember that the object of a conjurer is not PRIMARILY to deceive. That is his secondary object--his first being to ENTERTAIN"

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 12:57 pm
by MagicbyAlfred
"You should remember that the object of a conjurer is not PRIMARILY to deceive. That is his secondary object--his first being to ENTERTAIN"

And above all, the conjuror should not deceive him/herself.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 1:16 pm
by Leonard Hevia
MagicbyAlfred wrote:"You should remember that the object of a conjurer is not PRIMARILY to deceive. That is his secondary object--his first being to ENTERTAIN"

And above all, the conjuror should not deceive him/herself.


Absolutely. The magi must always stay on high alert for this. Ross Bertram pointed out once that in a room full of spectators, a small percentage will still not be fooled. But the hunt for the most natural Double Lift is akin to running on a hamster wheel. There will never be one all encompassing method.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 2:32 pm
by performer
I have found that in a room full of people EVERYONE should be fooled particularly in a close up situation. If they aren't then the magician has not done his job properly. I suspect the reason Bertram said this is because he was a technician and used a lot of difficult moves. When you do too much of that kind of thing someone is going to catch you. That is why a wily performer uses all sorts of methods and does not stick solely to sleight of hand.

Use subtleties, mathematical principles, gaffed cards, psychological methods and yes--even sleight of hand if necessary. However you must vary your methods if you wish to fool everyone. Oh, and I detest that word "fool". I think it is a horrible word to place on the secondary objective of a magician. (the first being to entertain). No. The word should be "mystify" "baffle" or "deceive" or if you wish to be pretentious
"create wonder"

The word "fool" should only be used among ourselves (and even then I don't like it) and never in public.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 6:04 pm
by Joe Mckay
Tommy Wonder makes a similar point in his The Three Pillars essay. It is one of the best essays I have ever read.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 6:15 pm
by performer
What did he say?

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 7:17 pm
by Jonathan Townsend
Our means of deceiving the audience include sleight of hand, mechanical props, and psychological strategies.
The Three Pillars essay is about five pages long and can be found in The Books of Wonder volume 1 page 316, right after the "Ring, Watch and Wallet" item.

If you can - ask someone to show you the performance video of his "Magic Ranch" item - or for a longer routine - his version of the cups trick. He uses sleight of hand, strategy in routine design, and mechanical props to make practical magic. :D

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 7:34 pm
by performer
In other words use any method which works. Don't just use sleight of hand. I have always said that.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 7:49 pm
by Leonard Hevia
Yes--the Three Pillars are psychology, mechanics, and sleight of hand. The logic behind Wonder's Three Pillars is to protect the method as much as possible. Audience members well versed in mechanics for example, might get thrown off by an effect that utilizes sleight of hand, and psychology. Those that understand sleight of hand might get sidetracked with an effect that is mostly mechanical. To unravel the method, audience members would have to be well versed in all three categories. The cornerstone Pilllar is psychology, without that the magician has no chance of baffling anybody.

Wonder considered an effect that utilized a combination of all three categories the most difficult to sort out. After Eugene Burger would perform "The Inquisition", his version of Card Warp with jumbo cards, architects would approach him and blurt out the actual method. The mechanical portion of Card Warp is not safe from architects. As Abraham Lincoln said: You can fool some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 8:40 pm
by Richard Kaufman
It's not just architects who can figure out "Card Warp." Good straight-line and visual thinkers, including engineers, can figure it out.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 9:38 pm
by erdnasephile
Dentists (who are experts in 3D spatial recognition) are also not ideal audiences for the standard Card Warp.

That's why I personally prefer Bruce Cervon's Warp II, which is much harder to reconstruct.

While not Card Warp, Tom Frame's brain-busting Son-of-HyperCard also fools the wise ones.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 26th, 2018, 10:56 pm
by performer
Engineers can often figure out tricks. The way you handle this is by distracting them with amusing patter, making them laugh and peppering them with questions. The human mind cannot think of two things at the same time so sometimes silence is not golden. "Jibber Jabber" is the secret to being a good close up magician providing you do it at the right time and not too much of it. I have known that my entire performing life.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 27th, 2018, 11:13 am
by erdnasephile
erdnasephile wrote:Dentists (who are experts in 3D spatial recognition) are also not ideal audiences for the standard Card Warp.

That's why I personally prefer Bruce Cervon's Warp II, which is much harder to reconstruct.

While not Card Warp, Tom Frame's brain-busting Son-of-HyperCard also fools the wise ones.


Clarification: The last sentence should have read: "Because it's not the typical run-of-the-mill Card Warp routine...

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 27th, 2018, 3:19 pm
by Tom Frame
Thanks Erdnasephile!

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 28th, 2018, 10:18 am
by Glenn Bish Bishop
This just in...

http://www.thejerx.com/blog/2015/6/28/l ... ish-vanish

All I can say is that even in spite of this, his theory on the double lift is questionable. And, if audience management is the problem. My advice is to not treat your audience or readers of your blog like they are idiots. Most audiences get offended by name calling, and the performer that is a jerk. Nate Lepizig once said to Dai Vernon, "The audience likes to feel that a gentleman has fooled them".

A Gentleman not a Jerk.

Oh yes perhaps I should answer the Jerks question as to where I went? I left the on-line magic community because I had a stroke.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 28th, 2018, 6:15 pm
by performer
I am so sorry to read that Glenn. It is terribly mean spirited. Awful stuff. It seems you are able to rise above it and I admire you for it.
However, I see that garbage was written in 2015. I get the impression that this Andy guy is less prone to personal attacks nowadays and is more constructive. I still think his ideas are impractical but at least he seems to be avoiding the personal attacks somewhat nowadays.

I am really sorry about your stroke and I hope your health is better nowadays.

Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Posted: August 30th, 2018, 8:02 pm
by Glenn Bish Bishop
performer wrote:I am so sorry to read that Glenn. It is terribly mean spirited. Awful stuff. It seems you are able to rise above it and I admire you for it.
However, I see that garbage was written in 2015. I get the impression that this Andy guy is less prone to personal attacks nowadays and is more constructive. I still think his ideas are impractical but at least he seems to be avoiding the personal attacks somewhat nowadays.

I am really sorry about your stroke and I hope your health is better nowadays.


It is just one mean spirited blog post among a very long list of mean spirited posts in blogs and on several magic forums, or message boards. I have lost interest in most of them.

I agree his ideas are impractical. As far as personal attacks, I think one personal attack is one to many. And my feeling of attacking products is also a lowlife thing to do. In magic one magician may not do well with one magic trick, while another magician can make the same trick a miracle.

I think his blog only shows how little he knows about magic.