Doing copper silver transpositions

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Glenn Bish Bishop
Posts: 33
Joined: July 5th, 2018, 12:44 pm
Favorite Magician: Billy Bishop

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » July 16th, 2018, 4:18 pm

Al Schneider wrote: Glenn, your words hurt me. But let me explain with an analogy.
Al

That is something I don't want to do Al is hurt you.

Al Schneider wrote:I am a computer guy. When the computer graphics began, I was entranced. I went to a movie theater that displayed one graphic demonstration after another. One was a lion prowling. Another was birds flying to music. These little clips were displayed one after another. I was enthralled. However, after fifty or more of them, I began to tire. I wanted them to go somewhere. I wanted a story.
Al

Computer graphics and special effects can dazzle the eyes, but they do little to improve the content.

Al Schneider wrote:
No one can deny the importance of computer graphics in our society today. It is part of the significant material we watch everyday. That is, computer graphics has become the core or bedrock for stories told.

I see magic technology that way. The stronger the magic technology, the stronger the magic show. The presentation/story is important. However, it depends upon the support of solid magic. If the magic is not there, you just have a story.
Al

My point of view is that magic "Is" the story.


Al Schneider wrote:
Note that I am not disagreeing with you. I think I am refining the point of view.

A

Not to re-hash, the point of view is an entertainer point of view and very old school. The audience doesn't care if the dove is produced from a silk (taking skill) or a dove pan (no skill). Only magicians care about the technical side of things. The audience is just there to be entertained.

However as a magician I find that the stronger the magic technology, the stronger the magic show is as well. As long as the "effect of magic" happens in the mind of the audience. And it gets the audience reaction I am after. I don't do any magic that I like that the audience doesn't like. Things that are overly technical to service my own personal ego of how skilled I am. That isn't my goal.

Al Schneider
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Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Al Schneider » July 16th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Glenn, you said, "My point of view is that magic ‘Is’ the story." I heartily agree.

I sense that the word magic means different things to many people. Let me explain what magic means to me.

Magic means doing something physical that alters reality for the audience.
Magic means to me effectively communicating what one is doing for the audience.
Magic means to me putting something in the mind of the audience that alters their sense of reality.
Magic means to me getting the audience to believe that I am sharing something with them instead of showing them something or even doing something for them they can’t do.
Magic means to me sharing something the audience WANTS to see.
Magic means to me caring for the audience.
Magic means to me getting the audience to care for me. If the audience does not care, they will not see magic.

The magic performer bows at the end of a performance because the audience is the judge of the performance.

I do not care if the audience laughs or cheers but when I do what I desire they laugh, cheer, and even scream.

Traditionally when my audiences walk away from one of my performances they are shaking their head as if they have seen something supernatural. Understand this occurs when I have total control over the environment in which I perform. It doesn’t happen in a bar where the real magic is the cute ladies doing their show.

I once had a cute lady say to me, “I have seen a lot of magicians here. But when I watch you do magic, I don’t see anything. It looks like magic.” That happened at an L&L shoot and the lady was one of the L&L models in the audience.

Unfortunately, all this has been hashed over and over. But many magicians just don’t seem to get it.

Here is an example. I have found that when a magic event happens, the performer must not look at the audience. If someone is shocked to see some event and the magician is looking at them, that someone will shut down. Yet I see performer after performer looking at the audience to see if they are fooled.

In the end, maybe I am just a magic guy and not an entertainer. That thought makes me want to crawl under rock and forget it all. But I resist for magic has been a significant part of my life. And I value friends like you.

Al
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

performer
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Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby performer » July 16th, 2018, 9:09 pm

Al Schneider wrote:

Here is an example. I have found that when a magic event happens, the performer must not look at the audience. If someone is shocked to see some event and the magician is looking at them, that someone will shut down. Yet I see performer after performer looking at the audience to see if they are fooled.



I have made this point myself in the past but nobody took any notice of me. And they probably won't take any notice of you either. Just visualise the expression, "No skin off my nose"

As for being an "entertainer" if the people watching you are astonished and appreciative of your magic then the "entertainment" has taken care of itself. You don't have to do a thing.

MikeM74
Posts: 5
Joined: November 18th, 2016, 6:33 pm
Favorite Magician: Dai Vernon

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby MikeM74 » July 17th, 2018, 5:10 am

Mr Schneider,
I have found your books and videos to be extremely informative, interesting, and exciting. I think books have changed the way I look at the art, and let me further my knowledge and interest in Magic. Sir, you are a wonderful Magician who has created a paradigm shift in our beautiful form of art. I am looking for your books that I am afraid all of the material was not included in the Compilation. Thank you for your contributions!
Anyone know where I might find the older books (1975, etc)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edward Pungot
Posts: 512
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Edward Pungot » July 17th, 2018, 6:12 am

Arthur C. Clarke
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Tangent: The first time a saw
"Quantum Tunneling" I was blown away.
Schneider delivers.

Edward Pungot
Posts: 512
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Edward Pungot » July 17th, 2018, 6:55 am

Edward Pungot wrote:Tangent: The first time a saw "Quantum Tunneling" I was blown away.


Tom Stone a few years back posted a clip of Al's on facebook that used coins, a tube, and flash paper. I don't think it was titled "Quantum Tunneling" but it sure fooled the hell out of me. What trick am I referring to?

Al Schneider
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Joined: July 8th, 2010, 8:55 pm

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Al Schneider » July 17th, 2018, 8:32 am

Super Nova

https://youtu.be/3324jsPcY5A

And I would like to ask a question. I am of the opinion that when Matrix and Al Schneider on Coins (amazon dot com) was presented to the world, the practice of coin magic was drastically changed. There were books on coin magic like Bobos but after those two books came out, I have the idea that coin technology, the number of people practicing it, and the number of books on it exploded. Is this just my ego talking?
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

performer
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Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby performer » July 17th, 2018, 8:41 am

I just watched the Super Nova video. It is a fantastic trick! All it needs now is a bit of jibber jabber!

Glenn Bish Bishop
Posts: 33
Joined: July 5th, 2018, 12:44 pm
Favorite Magician: Billy Bishop

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » July 17th, 2018, 10:08 am

Al Schneider wrote:Super Nova

https://youtu.be/3324jsPcY5A

And I would like to ask a question. I am of the opinion that when Matrix and Al Schneider on Coins (amazon dot com) was presented to the world, the practice of coin magic was drastically changed. There were books on coin magic like Bobos but after those two books came out, I have the idea that coin technology, the number of people practicing it, and the number of books on it exploded. Is this just my ego talking?


Super Nova is Super-Fantastic... I would like to do it in my act. Did you publish this?

Al in my opinion you blazed the new trail in coin magic.

Pete McCabe
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Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Pete McCabe » July 17th, 2018, 6:32 pm

Al, I have always felt that you have been the champion of the style of naturalness so strongly associated with Vernon. I think this is why I have always been so drawn to your magic. To me, the best compliment is "But you didn't do anything."

Super Nova is beautiful. It fooled me, and I know the method! But the handling has no tells. You didn't do anything!

Apparently I have to say something negative now, so as not to hurt you. ;-) In Super Nova, when you show each card on both sides, the handling is very clean, but the audience does not know why you are showing both sides, or even if the values of the cards are important. I realize that the reason you are showing both sides is to make clear that there are no extra coins. But you don't want to mention that, which would be suspicious (I assume, or you would).


One possible solution is to give some meaning to the values, so the audience will know why you are showing them. They will still see that there are no extra cards, but their attention will be on something else that will cover the lay-down. Here's a quick example: What if the cards were the A through 6 of one suit, and as you put them down you said something about one card for each coin, etc. Or you could count down from 6 to A, and then blast off (keeping the outer space theme).

Another option is to not use playing cards, which have nothing to do with the presentation anyway, and use cards with planets on them. In that case, you might want to start with the stack face down, turn each planet face up, and table it face up.

I hope you find these suggestions worth considering, as I have found your magic worth considering, studying, practicing, and performing all these years.

Al Schneider
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Joined: July 8th, 2010, 8:55 pm

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Al Schneider » July 17th, 2018, 7:28 pm

Well, I considered your comments. Actually, I listen to comments that are not necessarily supportive. Even if it hurts. Sometimes, the negative things have enabled me to advance. I am constantly questioning my own thinking. So, as I did not ask for your advice I will not simply say thank you.

I did not know I showed the cards on both sides. To me I showed the faces of the cards to demonstrate to the audience that there were no coins under the cards. Then, I use cards because the audience would recognize them. I need not explain what they are and I assume the audience would not expect something glued together. They are just cards. I am also assuming the audience would not realize they are all court cards. I use court cards to hide the edges of the half cards glued to the faces of the cards. Also, the gimmick cards do not stack well. With the coins in place, the stack flares out by an inch and a half. That would preclude showing both sides of the cards as one would do so while turning them over to place onto the table. Then, I do not use space patter with the trick. I just describe what I am doing. Only the name is space related. I am just not a patter kind of guy.

None-the-less, I appreciate your comments.

Then to all; I have remembered I had this trick up on my web site with an explanation long ago. It was never intended as a performance piece. Its purpose was to attract visitors to the web site. The head genii even commented on it. That was very long ago. I am doing it all over.

Al
Last edited by Al Schneider on July 17th, 2018, 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 17th, 2018, 7:34 pm

Al, I have no recollection of seeing Super Nova before, but just watched the video. Damn impressive!
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performer
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Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby performer » July 17th, 2018, 7:37 pm

I am going to hurt Al now by completely disagreeing with Pete McCabe. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for trying to justify showing the faces of each card. As Al Baker once said, "Many a good trick is killed by improvement". All that unnecessary justification would slow up the trick and put everyone to sleep before the fantastic climax happens and validate the opinion of Elisabeth Warlock and if that happened I would consider it the end of civilisation as we know it.

I have always been irritated with magicians always trying to find "justification" for their actions. The justification most of the time is that YOU ARE DOING A BLOODY TRICK! No other justification is necessary. I watched the trick and didn't even think for a second "why did he show the faces of the cards" However, if a justification was needed then showmanship would be a perfectly valid reason. It is much more colourful and interesting to show the faces of the cards.

Al is correct when he says that it is important to know what goes on in the minds of laymen. I certainly do after 60 years of performing close up magic and I knew from the very beginning that this was vitally important. And I can assure you that any added tommyrot to t try and justify showing the faces, far from improving the trick, would be liable to kill it stone dead.

And to quote Al Baker again, "Don't run when nobody is chasing you"

Al Schneider
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Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Al Schneider » July 17th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Ah, we get older don't we. I just retyped a description of the routine. While retyping it, some of it came back to me. You had made a comment someplace cautioning the viewers to not read the explanation until thought was applied to a solution. I had great trouble remembering this.

I also want to add something to my previous post. There are several errors in the video. You see, when I do this sort of thing I re-shoot the video until I get something acceptable. The trick has never had air. What you see is the first take that worked. In the video, I put to much effort in stacking the coins. Also, the ball of flash paper slips so low in the cylinder, it reveals the coins are no longer there. I worry about these things. But I am also a lazy guy.

Al
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Glenn Bish Bishop
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Joined: July 5th, 2018, 12:44 pm
Favorite Magician: Billy Bishop

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » July 17th, 2018, 8:12 pm

performer wrote:

I have always been irritated with magicians always trying to find "justification" for their actions. The justification most of the time is that YOU ARE DOING A BLOODY TRICK! No other justification is necessary. I watched the trick and didn't even think for a second "why did he show the faces of the cards" However, if a justification was needed then showmanship would be a perfectly valid reason. It is much more colourful and interesting to show the faces of the cards.

Al is correct when he says that it is important to know what goes on in the minds of laymen. I certainly do after 60 years of performing close up magic and I knew from the very beginning that this was vitally important. And I can assure you that any added tommyrot to try and justify showing the faces, far from improving the trick, would be liable to kill it stone dead.

And to quote Al Baker again, "Don't run when nobody is chasing you"


I totally agree with performer about all the bull spit of having to have justification at all when performing a show. Al showed the props and did the miracle. And it was real magic. It fooled the hell out of me and I love being fooled.

I think that this would work well in a formal close up show.

performer
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Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby performer » July 17th, 2018, 8:19 pm

The reason that Glenn agrees with me is that he is used to performing for real people on a frequent basis. After a long time doing this stuff you realise instinctively what works and what doesn't.

Al Schneider
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Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Al Schneider » July 17th, 2018, 8:55 pm

In my short experience with magic I have observed that the method can be more fascinating than the effect. Glenn, I feel I am offering something you will be enthralled with. I say this because you claim it will be for serious close-up shows. This trick is designed for those situations. One-of-a-kind events designed to be memories for the audience. This is really fun.

Al
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Glenn Bish Bishop
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Joined: July 5th, 2018, 12:44 pm
Favorite Magician: Billy Bishop

Re: Doing copper silver transpositions

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » July 18th, 2018, 12:23 am

Al Schneider wrote: In my short experience with magic I have observed that the method can be more fascinating than the effect.

Glenn, I feel I am offering something you will be enthralled with. I say this because you claim it will be for serious close-up shows. This trick is designed for those situations. One-of-a-kind events designed to be memories for the audience. This is really fun.

Al


Every magic effect I have seen you do Al has both Fascinated and enthralled and mystified me. I still do your method of the vanishing salt shaker through the table with the torn napkin. Everything you have come up with is magic - that looks like real magic.


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