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### "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 3:46 pm**

by **erdnasephile**

All:

I'm trying to minimize the "off the top of the deck" moves in my routines.

In one routine in particular, I am looking for a move/subtlety to eliminate what's popularly known as the "Secret Subtraction" move. (For those unfamiliar with the move: I have 3 face down cards on the top of the deck and 4 Face up cards in my right hand. Secret Subtraction allows one to exchange 3 of those face up cards for the 3 face down cards with a series of "shows". See:

http://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.ph ... ubtraction )

I pondered the use of John Carney's Versa Switch here, but oddly enough, that move is used in another part of the routine, so I rather not use it twice.

Can anyone please point me in the direction of another move that looks more natural than Secret Subtraction that will accomplish the goal?

Many thanks!

### Re: Secret Subtraction substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 3:47 pm**

by **Richard Kaufman**

Use a Pass.

### Re: Secret Subtraction substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 3:51 pm**

by **erdnasephile**

Richard Kaufman wrote:Use a Pass.

I'm having trouble visualizing that. Would you turn the four face up cards face down onto the deck and catch a break beneath them. Then do a top card cover pass of the 3 cards I want to get rid of to the bottom of the deck? Or am I totally missing the boat?

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 4:19 pm**

by **Jonathan Townsend**

The pass moves at least the four cards (take five that way you can flash the bottom face card of the pack) ... Other older methods include facing the pack - then secretly turning the entire deck over.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 4:22 pm**

by **Joe Mckay**

The Chris Kenner '4 for 4 Switch'?

You can find tutorials on YouTube in order to get a feel for the move.

Also - I like Ed Marlo's Bold Substitution.

The basic idea is this...

**1)** Spread the 4 Kings face up on the deck. The King of Clubs is top of the deck.

**2)** Turn all the Kings face down - apart from the top one (KC).

**3)** As you square up - take a break under the top four cards (a face-up KC and the 3 face down kings).

**4)** Lift the 4 cards as one card - you apparently only take the face-up KC (but really take the 3 face down kings below it). Keep them in a deep biddle grip with the front of your hand covering the thickness of the packet. As you show this card(?) - move it back to you as you learn forward and deal 3 cards face down on the table. Just thumb them off the deck (which is held in the other hand) one at a time.

**5)** Come back with the '4 as 1 card' and place on top of the deck. And thumb off the top face up KC on to the pile of cards on the table.

This is an easy to do switch and feels more casual than the usual Secret Subtraction/ATFUS moves.

Also - think about placing the card case where you want to place the packet of cards on the table. That way you can break up the above move by moving the card case out of the way. This gives you some motivation for what would otherwise be a slightly illogical series of actions.

Just something to consider. I often find these sorts of moves flow better when you can distract from the image of showing cards face up - then placing them face down on the top of the deck - before dealing them to the table.

Moving the card case or wiping away some imaginary dust on the table can help do this.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 8:47 pm**

by **Jonathan Townsend**

Depending on your blocking you could even use a version of the hop to swap packets under cover of placing the deck down or moving it over (think blizzard

) The card switch was published in Genii not so long ago.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 17th, 2017, 9:53 pm**

by **Richard Kaufman**

Cover Pass is the most direct way.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 18th, 2017, 9:19 am**

by **Bob Farmer**

I've always thought those off the top switches looked weird. My version is much more flexible than most and allows for all kinds of switching. A small portion of the manuscript can be found in Harry Lorayne's BEST OF FRIENDS II, see: The Packet Transfer (PAT) Switch at pp. 415-433.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 18th, 2017, 2:35 pm**

by **erdnasephile**

Thank you everyone: this is great!

Cover pass would work, but would require I square the shown cards in line with the deck, do the pass, then deal them off, correct? Definitely efficient, but I'd like to minimize apparent contact with the deck, so if I can avoid squaring the cards completely with the deck, I'd like that.

I just watched the "4 for 4" switch on youtube as suggested---I am now blind.

(Why do people voluntarily post videos of themselves performing sleights where they repeatedly flash?) I'm sure the move looks good in competent hands, but I've always had trouble covering moves with that packets that must flip over under a spread unless the auidence is looking down at my hands. Since I perform standing 99% of the time, I have to tip my hands down to do these, and it always looks/feels strange to me.

I just started researching Mr. Farmer's move---Aha! This might be exactly the ticket since I'm removing 4 indifferent cards from a spread prior to the switch. I'm going to explore this carefully. (I hope the manuscript with the other 87 variations gets published in the future--sounds very cool!).

Please keep the ideas coming!

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 18th, 2017, 4:36 pm**

by **Brad Henderson**

if you work at a table, the Rene lavand switch works well. four cards face up on the table. the left hand scoops them up and tosses them face down onto the table or they can be placed into the right hand.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 18th, 2017, 6:55 pm**

by **Richard Kaufman**

How about Erdnase's Palm Change? Simple and effective.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 29th, 2017, 8:51 pm**

by **anonymousmagician**

What's the context of the routine, if you don't mind sharing? That is, what are you doing at this point in the trick, and what do you need to switch the cards for (e.g., inserting them into the deck, placing under the box, etc.)?

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 29th, 2017, 9:51 pm**

by **Bill Mullins**

Brad Henderson wrote:if you work at a table, the Rene lavand switch works well. four cards face up on the table. the left hand scoops them up and tosses them face down onto the table or they can be placed into the right hand.

Pretty sure that Lavand did not scoop cards with his left and and place them in his right.

Just saying. . .

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 29th, 2017, 9:54 pm**

by **Richard Kaufman**

hahahahahaha ... Bill, you kill me.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 31st, 2017, 1:54 am**

by **erdnasephile**

anonymousmagician wrote:What's the context of the routine, if you don't mind sharing? That is, what are you doing at this point in the trick, and what do you need to switch the cards for (e.g., inserting them into the deck, placing under the box, etc.)?

Context: Spread through face up deck, upjog or take out 4 indifferent cards. Turn the deck face down. Show the 4 indifferent cards and secretly exchange them for 4 other cards on the top of the deck.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 31st, 2017, 11:09 am**

by **anonymousmagician**

erdnasephile wrote:anonymousmagician wrote:What's the context of the routine, if you don't mind sharing? That is, what are you doing at this point in the trick, and what do you need to switch the cards for (e.g., inserting them into the deck, placing under the box, etc.)?

Context: Spread through face up deck, upjog or take out 4 indifferent cards. Turn the deck face down. Show the 4 indifferent cards and secretly exchange them for 4 other cards on the top of the deck.

Sounds like the Vernon strip-out addition is exactly what you need. I can't think of anything more direct. There are other ways that would be good, but for this context, it seems ideal.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 31st, 2017, 10:50 pm**

by **erdnasephile**

anonymousmagician wrote:erdnasephile wrote:anonymousmagician wrote:What's the context of the routine, if you don't mind sharing? That is, what are you doing at this point in the trick, and what do you need to switch the cards for (e.g., inserting them into the deck, placing under the box, etc.)?

Context: Spread through face up deck, upjog or take out 4 indifferent cards. Turn the deck face down. Show the 4 indifferent cards and secretly exchange them for 4 other cards on the top of the deck.

Sounds like the Vernon strip-out addition is exactly what you need. I can't think of anything more direct. There are other ways that would be good, but for this context, it seems ideal.

That would definitely work, but I'm trying to avoid moves where I have to turn the cards face down square on the deck and deal off. I'm trying to minimize the apparent contact with the top of the deck.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **January 31st, 2017, 11:27 pm**

by **Richard Kaufman**

The Erdnase Palm Change.

No deck.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **February 1st, 2017, 10:28 am**

by **webbmaster**

I think ATFUS, the anytime face-up switch might help you. I find it often interchangeable with the Secret Subtraction, and I learned it in The Apocalypse but it is described elsewhere, maybe look in Card College. Regards, Gregg Webb

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **February 1st, 2017, 10:39 am**

by **erdnasephile**

Thanks, Mr. Webb!

Yes: ATFUS would work as well; however, I find moves like ATFUS, SS, and the Braue Addition to feel very unnatural since they require you to go to the deck for no particular reason. (M. Close has written about this previously). I also find the displays of the cards look unnatural (in my hands). I'm messing around with the Erdnase Palm change and Bob Farmers PAT to see if I can get them to fit within the routine.

I think the idealized sleight for me would involve going through the deck, throwing out the 4 indifferent cards on the table, and then switching 3 of the cards as I turn them face down with no contact with the deck. I realize that some contact with the deck will be necessary (unless I go the palm change route), but I want to make that contact psychologically invisible either by presentation or handling.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **February 1st, 2017, 2:10 pm**

by **anonymousmagician**

erdnasephile wrote:Thanks, Mr. Webb!

Yes: ATFUS would work as well; however, I find moves like ATFUS, SS, and the Braue Addition to feel very unnatural since they require you to go to the deck for no particular reason. (M. Close has written about this previously). I also find the displays of the cards look unnatural (in my hands). I'm messing around with the Erdnase Palm change and Bob Farmers PAT to see if I can get them to fit within the routine.

I think the idealized sleight for me would involve going through the deck, throwing out the 4 indifferent cards on the table, and then switching 3 of the cards as I turn them face down with no contact with the deck. I realize that some contact with the deck will be necessary (unless I go the palm change route), but I want to make that contact psychologically invisible either by presentation or handling.

Perhaps the Hellis Switch? I could also see a Vernon Transfer being useful in some way. Or what about Marlo's Unit Upjog?

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **February 1st, 2017, 3:16 pm**

by **Richard Kaufman**

Marlo's Unit Upjog Addition belongs to Gordon Bruce. Gordon showed it to everything in LA on his way to visit Marlo in Chicago. Shortly thereafter Marlo put it in print.

### Re: "Secret Subtraction" substitution?

Posted: **February 1st, 2017, 3:41 pm**

by **Philippe Billot**

Which year, please?