Stealing other people's effects...

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
I.M. Magician
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Stealing other people's effects...

Postby I.M. Magician » June 25th, 2016, 1:31 pm

I was viewing a DVD on versions of Wild Card and I see someone doing a version called Factory Rejects by Lee Grey. Not only does he not give credit to its inventor but he has renamed it and calls it his own creation.

How do I know that it's Factory Rejects by Lee Grey? Because Lee Grey owned Kanter's Magic Shop and I worked there for ten years. I demonstrated and sold hundreds of them. In fact, I put the sets together and packaged them myself.

I know that stealing effects is nothing new but this one hits home because of my close relationship to the creator as well as the effect itself.

It's a shame that the maker of the DVD wasn't more knowledgable so he could have known it was stolen and not allowed it to end up on the DVD the way it did.

I have heard lots of negative things about this guy over the years but stealing effects is a new one.

Tortuga
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby Tortuga » June 26th, 2016, 11:55 pm

This has gone on since there was more than one magician. What gets me is when I see a young youtuber mimicking another magician, patter, mannerisms, etc. I've even seen some well known magicians copying Daryl's laugh or sounds that he makes when he is performing. Kinda sad.

If you are really upset did you try to contact the magician in question? Some will make an attempt to correct the record when they make more copies. Even some reference at the end of the video is better than nothing.
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alexcsurko
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby alexcsurko » August 28th, 2016, 1:30 pm

I personally do steal other people's effects. It's the same way as a musician performing a cover of a song. In magic, what is the point of publishing an effect if you don't want someone to use it as is?

Of course, you shouldn't rename it ame credit it as your own, but when you learn a trick of perfection, why should you tweak it?

There may have been things left out of my answer that will invite contradictions and questions, which I'll be happy to clarify, but that's my opinion.

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Tom Stone
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby Tom Stone » August 28th, 2016, 2:22 pm

alexcsurko wrote:In magic, what is the point of publishing an effect if you don't want someone to use it as is?

There are not enough words on this earth to explain this to you. Either you get it, or you don't.

Jackpot
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Stealing other people's effects...

Postby Jackpot » August 28th, 2016, 3:13 pm

alexcsurko wrote:I personally do steal other people's effects. It's the same way as a musician performing a cover of a song. In magic, what is the point of publishing an effect if you don't want someone to use it as is?


If you were singing "What a Wonderful World" would you use your own voice or try to sound like Louis Armstrong?



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Last edited by Jackpot on August 28th, 2016, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JHostler
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby JHostler » August 28th, 2016, 3:14 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
alexcsurko wrote:In magic, what is the point of publishing an effect if you don't want someone to use it as is?

There are not enough words on this earth to explain this to you. Either you get it, or you don't.


Just extrapolating from my personal feelings, but it would be profoundly creepy and disconcerting for most creators to see themselves imitated. Deploying the basic material (moves and effect) is one thing... mimicking is another. And it happens way too often.
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alexcsurko
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby alexcsurko » August 28th, 2016, 4:42 pm

I am accused of having Darwinisms, but no, i don't mimic his tone or voice patterns, but i do employ his theoretical techniques, such as increasing tempo as the climax is approaching, etc.

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lybrary
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby lybrary » August 28th, 2016, 4:48 pm

I think that imitation is perfectly fine as a stepping stone to finding your own way. You can look up the history of some of the greatest magicians and you will find periods where they have imitated others. I will mention here just one example to make my point - Juan Tamariz. He himself admitted that he went through a period imitating Slydini. So here you have a recognized powerhouse and master of magic and creativity, Juan Tamariz, and he had a period in is magic life where he imitated the routines and mannerism of one of the greatest.

Anybody who knows a bit about how humans learn will understand that imitation is an important and necessary part of learning. Anybody with kids will know this, too. They are like little monkeys learning by imitation. Eventually, when a certain mastery has been achieved further progress comes by adding your own novel thoughts and creativity to derive something that reflects your own personality and your own independent thoughts.

Having said that, it is true that some never leave the imitation phase.
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alexcsurko
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby alexcsurko » August 28th, 2016, 4:57 pm

I use to be a heavy imitator of darwin ortiz, but now I'm me - with a load of darwin techniques. But only i can see the similarity. Get a layman to compere a performance of me and darwin and they're are completely different.

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby Q. Kumber » August 28th, 2016, 5:43 pm

alexcsurko wrote:Get a layman to compere a performance of me and darwin and they're are completely different.


I can see why that might be.

Jackpot
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby Jackpot » August 28th, 2016, 7:13 pm

alexcsurko wrote:I am accused of having Darwinisms, but no, i don't mimic his tone or voice patterns, but i do employ his theoretical techniques, such as increasing tempo as the climax is approaching, etc.

If I am correctly understanding you, when singing "What a Wonderful Life" you would use solid performance techniques, but you would use your own voice and wouldn't be mimicking a gravely voice.

Sounds good to me.


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performer
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Re: Stealing other people's effects...

Postby performer » August 28th, 2016, 11:50 pm

I tend not to steal other people's material although not from an ethical standpoint since that is a subject which I am not particularly interested in. Besides I find ethics to be a most peculiar concept anyway. I am a svengali pitchman after all.

No. I find stealing other people's material tends not to work from a practical standpoint. It is rare that you can be as good as the original although not impossible. One thing is certain. It is a massive mistake to ape anyone's personality and patter. That is the road to failure.


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