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Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 24th, 2016, 6:02 pm
by erdnasephile
Dear Coin Masters:

I have been working on David Roth's "Out with 5" (Slot box version).

The move I'm having the most problems doing consistently is the "Stack Rim Steal".

1) When I go to palm the stack, I keep pushing the coins into the box. I'm using the Roth Boxes with the thicker walls, which helps, but when I contract my classic palm muscles, the coins tend to get pushed.
2) As I'm doing the move, I am mentally focusing up picking up that lid. As a result, the direction I hit that stack from is from above and moving to the left on my way to the lid. This also tends to make me push the coins. Is this the right direction my right hand should be moving during the move? Should I bringing the right hand down in more of a vertical motion to palm the stack against the edge of the box?
3) Everything I've read/seen suggests there should be no hesitation between the movement of dropping the stack, grabbing the lid and palming the stack. I am finding this hard to do, even when doing the actual motions for real. That is, when I do the movements the Stack Rim Steal is supposed to simulate, I find there is some natural pause between dropping the coins in the box and going for the lid. As with any sleight, I've been working to make the sleight look exactly what I look like when I do the real motions. However, I'm wondering if I'm just settling for something less and if should I continue to work towards the "no hesitation" ideal.
4) Any there any particular coins that make this easier? Would it be a good idea to only use coins with sharp milled edges? Or should I try to track down some soft halves that cling together a bit? I also read somewhere that attendees at the NY Coin Magic Seminars sometimes got rosin to help with classic palms. Does that stuff help with a move like this?

Sorry for such a long post. I suspect that perhaps the answers to all of those questions rests with just thoughtful practice and good mirror/video work. They also may be impossible to answer, given that my hands are going to be different than everyone else's. However, I was hoping those of you experienced folks might be able nudge me in the right direction to help shorten my learning curve a bit please.

Many thanks in advance for your time!

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 24th, 2016, 6:43 pm
by Richard Kaufman
Hasn't Roth put this on a video someplace? Maybe he'll give you a Skype lesson. Or you can go to the Conjuring Arts Research Center, where he works.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 24th, 2016, 6:58 pm
by Bill Mullins
Richard Kaufman wrote:Hasn't Roth put this on a video someplace?

Back in the VHS (A-1 Multimedia) days, it was David Roth's Expert Coin Magic Made Easy! Vol 11 Okito Coin Box Magic

The L&L DVD is David Roth Ultimate Coin Magic Collection Vol 2 Magic with the Okito Box.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 24th, 2016, 7:19 pm
by James
You can see Roth perform the move here:

Not sure if it will help you nail the move, but shows how smoothly it can be done.


Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 25th, 2016, 5:47 am
by Tom Gilbert
You might check the angle that you are approaching the coins. For me, I need to settle down on the coins, not so much across, if that makes any sense.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 25th, 2016, 8:33 pm
by Curtis Kam
I think a lot depends on placing the lid at exactly the right spot so that your palm is contacting the coins when your fingertip touch the lid. That'll depend on the relative sizes of your coins, box, lid and fingers.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 26th, 2016, 8:39 am
by Tortuga
Curtis nailed it, I think. Set your props on the pad and play around with angles and distances until it feels right and then burn that arrangement into your memory. I would also add that moves of this type call for boldness, fearlessness really. You can't double clutch or it becomes obvious. Develop a rhythm, box, lid, box and that helps too. There is a move where you actually dump the coins into the box and then in the process of retrieving the lid, get them back out. While different, it uses most all of the tips we've been discussing. When it works, it is truly magical. Good luck.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 27th, 2016, 3:10 pm
by erdnasephile
Thanks, guys--those tips are very helpful--once I started setting the led further away from the box at a precise angle, it started to come--just have to keep working for consistency and naturalness.

Interestingly (at least to me), the move is also easier to do when I practice it in the context of the moves surrounding it and at speed. I think it's the rhythm and fearlessness that Tortuga speaks of. (Just have to pounce and palm those sucka's!)

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: March 31st, 2016, 5:54 pm
by erdnasephile
The other thing I've noticed while practicing this is how much easier this move is to do sitting instead of standing. For me, it's becoming a matter of paying attention to geometry and force. Will keep working until it becomes second nature and then add the blocking and misdirection.

I'm a card guy, so practicing routines like this is a lot of fun. It takes such precision and it sometimes feels like I'm working without a net. That is, I can take almost any of my "go to" card routines and get out of the most common errors and satisfactorily conclude things without the audience being aware anything was amiss. This routine is another beast all together. (Must be why you coin guys like this stuff! :D )

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: April 1st, 2016, 7:48 am
by Tom Gilbert
You're definitely not tackling the easiest one there is.


Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: April 1st, 2016, 8:40 pm
by erdnasephile
No pain, no gain--right, Tom? ;)

I'm actually a little surprised on how it's coming along--even the "touch production" pop-out move doesn't seem quite as impossible anymore.

Of course, I've got miles and miles to go before it all appears natural and magical and has an equally good original presentation. However, I needed a change, which is why I decided to develop my cups and balls skills and to begin to conquer my irrational fear of coin routines. (CK's admonition via KH is my new mantra: "Just palm the @#$#! coins!")

Again--thanks to all of you--the tips are really helping!

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: April 1st, 2016, 8:53 pm
by Richard Kaufman
Roth always made this look very easy when he did it. And as I recall he did all of his Okito Box work while sitting.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: April 2nd, 2016, 5:16 pm
by Brad Jeffers
You can avoid the rim steal by utilizing the alternate ending, where the fourth coin is sent into the box, rather than having the three coins in the box going to join the fourth coin in the hand.

This is good, but I prefer the handling that you are working on.

Anyway, you will need to be able to do the rim steal, if you want to follow up Out with Five with The Okito Box Through Hand ; something that I would strongly suggest you do; as the combination of the two will give you the ultimate coin box routine.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: April 5th, 2016, 9:27 am
by erdnasephile
Thanks, Brad--I'll look up The Okito Box Through Hand. I think it's on the same DVD. (Boy, the menus on that DVD are not very helpful at all).

I also see that Mr. Roth teaches Out with Five on his Penguin Live lecture. Has anyone seen this? Is there anything new as far as this particular routine goes? (From the trailer, it looks like he teaches an alternative coin through the hand sequence instead of the "touch production"). I was just wondering if it were worth buying for any recent work on the routine.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: April 6th, 2016, 4:25 am
by Brad Jeffers

The coin through the hand sequence is what Roth used in the original Out With Five that was written up in his book. As I'm sure you know, that version uses a standard Okito box rather than a slot box. The slot box version is superior. For me, the slot box makes the regular Okito box obsolete.

I would use the coin through hand sequence in lieu of the touch production if I were to only be doing Out With Five without following up with The Okito Box Through Hand.
I actually think it plays better than the touch production and it certainly is a lot easier to do.

The Okito Box Through Hand is all about the coins passing through the hand, so I would just as soon not replace the touch production with the coin through hand sequence when combining the two routines.

As to whether it is worth buying the Penguin Live lecture to obtain updated info on Out With Five, the answer is no. For one thing, the only difference in the routine is the substitution of the coin through the hand sequence for the touch production. Everything else is exactly the same.

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: September 13th, 2017, 1:42 pm
by webbmaster
If you are going to palm with your right hand, you can seem to steady the box with your left fingers and your left 1st finger can back up the stack so it doesn't fall into the box. Regards, Gergg

Re: Roth's Stack Rim Steal Tips?

Posted: September 13th, 2017, 2:09 pm
by Richard Kaufman
Roth had a slot box when we did the book in 1985. If he didn't use it in the items in the book, it was by choice.