"This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Brad Henderson
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 3rd, 2016, 9:12 pm

again, I think people are missing the point.

The issue isn't if the box might come under suspicion - though if the routine is structured for maximum impact there is no reason the magician should handle it in anyway to suggest it might be more than it is - the issue is that being able to show the box empty before or after the appearance of the card does NOT eliminate any method a human being who is following the story would entertain.

The effect as RK pointed out is that the card was in the box prior to the card being selected. Showing the box empty at this point DESTROYS that effect. Now it becomes "how did he sneak the card into the box" which does invited thoughts of palming and possibly trap doors.

Showing the box empty after revealing the card is simply silly. The ONLY person for whom that might have logical relevance is someone who knows the Bruno Hennig method.

The beautiful thing about that method is that one can open the box with complete fairness eliminating the possibility of the trap door. the box is a tool of isolation. If you are fondling it throughout your routine, then yeah, they are going to think you slipped it in somehow.

But if they suspect trap door you have failed in your presentation/handling. The strength of the Bruno Hennig is that there is no opportunity for the audience to think you slipped in into the box, trapdoor or otherwise. It is this clear impossibility that leads the audience to experience the effect that the card MUST have been in the box prior to it being signed.

The genius of the Hennig principle is that the moment occurs when there is no heat on the card or the box. When they see the card inside, they conclude it must be their card. The dump is merely an intransit action (to perhaps inaccurately use an Ascanio term) in service of allowing them to have access to the card and unfold it.

And if your audience isn't feeling the magic until after they have examined the objects, you have mis-directed them to look at the wrong place. I saw a guy do a coin trick for laypeople at a magic venue. At the end of the routine he offered the coins to be examined.

That means that he expects the audience to retroactively go back and assign the condition of proven normalcy to the events which they have already experienced and processed. Their experience up until that point was weak because they assumed, perhaps, trick coins.

Sorry, that's bad structure.

If you want the audience to know your box is impregnable, then that must be made clear at the outset. Otherwise, you are just teasing them with the puzzle.

If they think you could have slipped the card in, via a trap door or other technique, then you have failed in constructing your effect to eliminate that method PRIOR to the climax of the magical happening.

JonKamm
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 3rd, 2016, 10:14 pm

Roger M. wrote:Looks the same as it did in 2006.

Lots of fiddly cupping of the hands, weird turnovers, etc.


Roger,

If you want to know what its all about instead of guessing why not download the video. If you are not pleased I will refund your money. Its being used by pros all over the world. 1000+ downloads no complaints just solid five star reviews.

JonKamm
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 3rd, 2016, 10:49 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:again, I think people are missing the point.

The issue isn't if the box might come under suspicion - though if the routine is structured for maximum impact there is no reason the magician should handle it in anyway to suggest it might be more than it is - the issue is that being able to show the box empty before or after the appearance of the card does NOT eliminate any method a human being who is following the story would entertain.

The effect as RK pointed out is that the card was in the box prior to the card being selected. Showing the box empty at this point DESTROYS that effect. Now it becomes "how did he sneak the card into the box" which does invited thoughts of palming and possibly trap doors.

Showing the box empty after revealing the card is simply silly. The ONLY person for whom that might have logical relevance is someone who knows the Bruno Hennig method.

The beautiful thing about that method is that one can open the box with complete fairness eliminating the possibility of the trap door. the box is a tool of isolation. If you are fondling it throughout your routine, then yeah, they are going to think you slipped it in somehow.

But if they suspect trap door you have failed in your presentation/handling. The strength of the Bruno Hennig is that there is no opportunity for the audience to think you slipped in into the box, trapdoor or otherwise. It is this clear impossibility that leads the audience to experience the effect that the card MUST have been in the box prior to it being signed.

The genius of the Hennig principle is that the moment occurs when there is no heat on the card or the box. When they see the card inside, they conclude it must be their card. The dump is merely an intransit action (to perhaps inaccurately use an Ascanio term) in service of allowing them to have access to the card and unfold it.

And if your audience isn't feeling the magic until after they have examined the objects, you have mis-directed them to look at the wrong place. I saw a guy do a coin trick for laypeople at a magic venue. At the end of the routine he offered the coins to be examined.

That means that he expects the audience to retroactively go back and assign the condition of proven normalcy to the events which they have already experienced and processed. Their experience up until that point was weak because they assumed, perhaps, trick coins.

Sorry, that's bad structure.

If you want the audience to know your box is impregnable, then that must be made clear at the outset. Otherwise, you are just teasing them with the puzzle.

If they think you could have slipped the card in, via a trap door or other technique, then you have failed in constructing your effect to eliminate that method PRIOR to the climax of the magical happening.


Brad,

Sounds like you are talking theoretically and not from experience. I have performed card to box more than 100,000 times over the past 20 years under real world conditions for every person imaginable under every condition imaginable. I've performed it in every way possible. It doesn't matter if you present it as the card being in the box the entire time or the card in the box becomes their card or their card switches places with the card in the box or their card simply appears in the empty box. To a lay audience the question they will have is "How did you get my card in the box?" There is no presentation created that will keep an audience from suspecting the box. If you can show the box empty and free of any gimmickry or tampering that is a huge plus. I leave the box on the table. If they want to check it out they can if not fine. But the fact is its there and they can examine it all they want. I have nothing to hide.

I would gladly perform Toibox head to head against any card to box on the market. They can even go first. I guarantee Toibox would be more well received. The openness, the cleanness, the fairness, the scope of the multiphase routine of Toibox is overwhemingly a better effect.

Brad Henderson
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 3rd, 2016, 11:12 pm

and what you still fail to see is that any improved reaponse has NOTHING to do with the audience seeing the box empty before or after.

And yes, they will ask how the card got into the box. But with a method like the Hennig (properly orchestrated), one eliminates the possibility of sneaking it in PRIOR to the revelation that the card is indeed inside of it.

I have no doubt the audience mignt suspect you slip the card into your box with your method - especially if your method is sneaking it into the box! Showing no trapdoor, if anything, only directs them to conclude you must have slipped it in. If that's your method, you arent doing magic, you are showing off that you can do what they know you are doing without them seeing you.

if the audience suspects the box at the end of the trick your handling is flawed for not having eliminated that as a method before the revelation. Otherwise you are asking them to experience their amazement not when the card is revealed, but after they learn the box has no traps.

Luigi Anzivino
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 3rd, 2016, 11:26 pm

observer wrote: :shock: why would you ... why on Earth would anybody .... what were you hoping to accomplish when you did this?


Sorry, maybe I didn't express myself clearly: I performed it once for each group, of course. So, twice total.

observer wrote:There's a massive difference between getting "honest reactions" and getting "Ha, you can't fool us!" reactions, though.


I think you thought I did it twice in a row for each group, which wasn't the case. Still, you are right, these are people that know me and so their reactions are not going to be the ones of a more typical performing situation. My point was not that they are common reactions, but that the thought of the box having something to do with the effect does occur to a spectator of average intelligence.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 3rd, 2016, 11:38 pm

erdnasephile wrote:First of all, I'm sorry to hear you got busted--that is never fun.

PS: I decided to put my money where my mouth is and bought the download. Once I have a chance to study it, I'll report back.


I'm not sure where you got the idea I got busted, but I am curious what you think once you study the material.

Again, I am not trying to convince anyone that this method is or isn't superior to any other method, but simply that it is a method. It would be like saying the KM move is clearly needless because if you've performed and set up your double lift correctly nobody should even suspect, let alone detect, that there are two cards there… It's a move, a method, it has applications, maybe not for you, but it might be worth studying and knowing about.

Reacting to a product sight unseen with hostility baffles me… I see this attitude widespread in online magic communities and I don't think it serves magic well.

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erdnasephile
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby erdnasephile » February 3rd, 2016, 11:53 pm

Luigi Anzivino wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:First of all, I'm sorry to hear you got busted--that is never fun.

PS: I decided to put my money where my mouth is and bought the download. Once I have a chance to study it, I'll report back.


I'm not sure where you got the idea I got busted, but I am curious what you think once you study the material.


I'm sorry--I misinterpreted your post--I thought that the spectator reactions as described meant that they did not perceive the effect as you had intended. (Perhaps "busted" was a poor choice of words)

In any event, no offense intended, sir.

(PS: I'm not meaning to come across as "hostile"--I actually bought the videos to study so I hope that indicates I'm not deliberately being ornery as it pertains to the product.)

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby observer » February 3rd, 2016, 11:56 pm

Luigi Anzivino wrote:
these are people that know me and so their reactions are not going to be the ones of a more typical performing situation. My point was not that they are common reactions, but that the thought of the box having something to do with the effect does occur to a spectator of average intelligence.



Ah. Yes, you're absolutely right. It really is just totally different doing stuff for people who know you. They'll glom on to a "solution" even if it makes no sense, as long as it gives them a reason to not be bewildered.

"It's up your sleeve!"
"Dude, I'm wearing a T shirt."
"It went though a trap door!!!"
Last edited by observer on February 4th, 2016, 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

JonKamm
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 4th, 2016, 12:18 am

Brad Henderson wrote:and what you still fail to see is that any improved reaponse has NOTHING to do with the audience seeing the box empty before or after.

And yes, they will ask how the card got into the box. But with a method like the Hennig (properly orchestrated), one eliminates the possibility of sneaking it in PRIOR to the revelation that the card is indeed inside of it.

I have no doubt the audience mignt suspect you slip the card into your box with your method - especially if your method is sneaking it into the box! Showing no trapdoor, if anything, only directs them to conclude you must have slipped it in. If that's your method, you arent doing magic, you are showing off that you can do what they know you are doing without them seeing you.

if the audience suspects the box at the end of the trick your handling is flawed for not having eliminated that as a method before the revelation. Otherwise you are asking them to experience their amazement not when the card is revealed, but after they learn the box has no traps.


Oh, I see whats going on. You haven't seen my methods. You're guessing and making assumptions. Actually my methods are exactly the same as the original Hennig method except I don't use a gimmick. In fact it visually looks exactly the same. Now I understand why you're confused. Go download the tutorial. Then you will know what you are talking about. Again if you are displeased in any way I will refund your money.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 4th, 2016, 12:58 am

erdnasephile wrote:I'm sorry--I misinterpreted your post--I thought that the spectator reactions as described meant that they did not perceive the effect as you had intended. (Perhaps "busted" was a poor choice of words)

In any event, no offense intended, sir.

(PS: I'm not meaning to come across as "hostile"--I actually bought the videos to study so I hope that indicates I'm not deliberately being ornery as it pertains to the product.)


Gotcha. No offense taken! And I wasn't thinking of you as hostile. All good!

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Roger M. » February 4th, 2016, 10:10 am

JonKamm wrote:
Roger M. wrote:Looks the same as it did in 2006.

Lots of fiddly cupping of the hands, weird turnovers, etc.


Roger,

If you want to know what its all about instead of guessing why not download the video. If you are not pleased I will refund your money. Its being used by pros all over the world. 1000+ downloads no complaints just solid five star reviews.


I've been around magic for a stretch, and I watched your marketing video.
I don't need to know, nor am I particularly compelled to know the specific details of the load to know I don't like aggressive touching of a spectators hands during a trick, odd looking turnovers, etc.
Unless your video is inaccurate, that's what I'm seeing.

I think we all understand what's going on here Jon, and most of us have no real need to know the specifics of the routine to make valid comments about loading a chosen or signed card to an ungaffed, surprise location.
It's pretty standard fare for an effects creator to imply that nobody can critique their effect unless they've purchased it ... but that old nugget only works on newbies and kids who don't understand the basics of manipulating playing cards.

No horse in this race Jon, I watched your marketing video and I just don't like how the handling looks ... the number of folks on the Penguin forum raving about it doesn't matter to me.

Brad Henderson
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 4th, 2016, 1:15 pm

let's get down to basics - in this 'version' - what is the effect?

Brad Henderson
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 4th, 2016, 1:21 pm

JonKamm wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:and what you still fail to see is that any improved reaponse has NOTHING to do with the audience seeing the box empty before or after.

And yes, they will ask how the card got into the box. But with a method like the Hennig (properly orchestrated), one eliminates the possibility of sneaking it in PRIOR to the revelation that the card is indeed inside of it.

I have no doubt the audience mignt suspect you slip the card into your box with your method - especially if your method is sneaking it into the box! Showing no trapdoor, if anything, only directs them to conclude you must have slipped it in. If that's your method, you arent doing magic, you are showing off that you can do what they know you are doing without them seeing you.

if the audience suspects the box at the end of the trick your handling is flawed for not having eliminated that as a method before the revelation. Otherwise you are asking them to experience their amazement not when the card is revealed, but after they learn the box has no traps.


Oh, I see whats going on. You haven't seen my methods. You're guessing and making assumptions. Actually my methods are exactly the same as the original Hennig method except I don't use a gimmick. In fact it visually looks exactly the same. Now I understand why you're confused. Go download the tutorial. Then you will know what you are talking about. Again if you are displeased in any way I will refund your money.


I see the problem. You think magic is about methods.

This has nothing to do with your methods per se. It has to do with performance choices that lead people to conclude possible methods.

from your video you touch the box - a lot.

no wonder people think you are slipping something inside of it.

with the hennig method - wisely used - the box is NEVER touched until AFTER the card has been shown to have arrived (or after it is revealed it has always been there).

If you never touch the box - and make sure the audience knows that - then the possibity that you slipped it in becomes nonexistent and the presence of a trapdoor would be irrelevant.

it seems to me that the 'effect' you are trying to present, based on the video, is that you can sneak the card into the box without them catching you.

but that is an assumption based on what your video seems to show.

is that the effect you intend to produce?

and if so, why are you surprised/disappointed that people in your audience think you slipped it in without them seeing you?

what, in your mind, is the effect?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 4th, 2016, 1:39 pm

The effect he's actually doing has nothing to do with the Bruno Hennig trick. What he's doing is a repeat card-to-cardcase, but contrived onto a metal "mints" box so he can produce the mints at the end.
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 4th, 2016, 1:55 pm

For reference, here is Fred Kaps performing the Bruno Hennig method for Brother John Hamman.



Brad Henderson
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 4th, 2016, 4:09 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The effect he's actually doing has nothing to do with the Bruno Hennig trick. What he's doing is a repeat card-to-cardcase, but contrived onto a metal "mints" box so he can produce the mints at the end.


ah - that explains a lot.

So many magicians have no idea what effect they are attempting to produce, and even fewer have ever considered to define (for themselves or their audiences) the DRAMATIC method being alleged.

If his 'effect' is I can sneak this card into the box witnout you catching me, then I'm not surprised people suspect he's sneaking the card in! or using trap doors.

I'm just not a fan of making the method (or A method) the effect, but I understand it can be a viable approach if managed thoughtfully and with intention. I also don't think the feelingful response one can hope to achieve would be very deep as one is essentially posing a 'catch me if you can' game - but that can be fun in small doses.

All the more reason to be clear that what he is offering is not an improvement on the Hennig or any other version of that effect. It's an entirely different beast all together.

there is value in being able to recognize that.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 4th, 2016, 4:38 pm

ToiBox is not a box. Toibox is not a routine. Toibox is a card to box system. Toibox is a series of sleights, moves, techniques that allow you the magician to perform card to box however you want. If you want to do the classic Bruno Hennig version you can absolutely do that. If you like Tommy Wonders routine you can do that. With Toibox you'll have the advantage of doing it with a normal mint tin. No gimmicks.

If you choose to show the tin empty in the beginning or at the end the Toibox techniques give you that ability. Toibox allows you to create card to box routines that were never possible before. If you are in love with the classic method you are more then welcome to do that. I'll often do the classic method. I'll isolate the tin off to the side and cover it with an overturned glass. I'll do my favorite signed card effect ending by showing the card is in the tin. I teach more than half a dozen different ways to make their card appear inside the tin. I teach multiple switches, transfers, loading techniques all that have been honed over a 20+ year career. Even teach a way to do card to box with no Mercury fold!

“I loved the reverse routine, doing a card fold without doing the fold – that is going in my repertoire.”
-Allan Ackerman

I'm not a fan of clear boxes but the Toibox techniques can be used with a clear box. A clear box with no gimmicks.

Eliminating the gimmicked box opens up a world of possibilities. This is what everyone is finding out. They love the creative possibilities that Toibox offers.

The main routine I teach and the one I use most often is a 3 phase routine. The first phase is very close to the Bruno hennig version except I place the tin on the table and I let the spectator use the tin to choose packets. Its a process of elimination that allows the spectator to handle the tin. They narrow the cards down to one. The card is not their selection! You explain thats because its actually in the tin they have been holding the whole time. Now I choose to repeat the effect so using the Toibox techniques I can place the tin on the table completely empty. If they choose to examine it I let them, if not we continue to phase two. In phase two I pick up the empty tine and place it in the spectators hands. Someone else selects a card, that card vanishes and ends up in the tin the spectator is holding. The spectator opens the tin and removes the card. It is their card. As an ending you show that none of this really happened because the tin is full of mints! The End.

This is the routine Doc Eason fell in love with and is using every night.

This is how I choose to perform it. Its a modular routine so I can stop at any point and end the effect if there are distractions in the restaurant. Ive performed this version for years. I performed the hennig version for years. I prefer my version. Its stronger, cleaner and more grand of a routine then the usual card to box routines. But Toibox is open to however you like to perform. If you like short and sweet. Toibox will do that better than any version out there.

Hope that clears things up. Offer still stands if you want to get the 80 min tutorial from Penguin and learn all that Toibox has to offer feel free. Full refund for you if you are displeased in any way.

Have a great day gentleman.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Tom Stone » February 4th, 2016, 4:59 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:The effect he's actually doing has nothing to do with the Bruno Hennig trick. What he's doing is a repeat card-to-cardcase, but contrived onto a metal "mints" box so he can produce the mints at the end.


ah - that explains a lot.

So many magicians have no idea what effect they are attempting to produce, and even fewer have ever considered to define (for themselves or their audiences) the DRAMATIC method being alleged.

If his 'effect' is I can sneak this card into the box witnout you catching me, then I'm not surprised people suspect he's sneaking the card in! or using trap doors.

I'm just not a fan of making the method (or A method) the effect, but I understand it can be a viable approach if managed thoughtfully and with intention. I also don't think the feelingful response one can hope to achieve would be very deep as one is essentially posing a 'catch me if you can' game - but that can be fun in small doses.

All the more reason to be clear that what he is offering is not an improvement on the Hennig or any other version of that effect. It's an entirely different beast all together.

there is value in being able to recognize that.

It's a different beast all together. I think the marketing copy is misjudged.
There is good thinking in this. The cancelling from phase to phase is well crafted. Some bits are open-ended and allows for jazzing. A few bits are a tad 'cozy' in handling, but not overly so. The Bruno Hennig piece is a part of it, but I wouldn't consider this a replacement for the Bruno Hennig routine, especially not in a formal close-up show. But I think this is really useful in a bar or restaurant where some see it for the first time and other's see it for the third time that evening. Even more useful in tough or rough venues. I like what I've seen. But I think Jonathan Kamm need to rewrite the marketing copy.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Andrew Pinard » February 4th, 2016, 5:40 pm

JonKamm wrote:I have performed card to box more than 100,000 times over the past 20 years under real world conditions for every person imaginable under every condition imaginable.


That means over fourteen times a day, seven days a week, for twenty years.

Kudos! Not easy to get to those numbers...

I have spent plenty of time using "card to impossible location" in restaurant work over the years and can testify to its strengths. Even published my "Poor Man's Nest of Boxes" using Altoids tins back in The Magic Menu back in 2002. I've used many different containers (including miniature "Barrel of Monkeys" barrels in my bar act). While I've only performed my version a couple thousand times over the last twenty years, I've never had audience members ask for the box.

Still and all, best wishes with the product! Always good to have people thinking, developing, and sharing their pet handlings with others.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 4th, 2016, 6:05 pm

FINALLY! Someone who can do math.
Thank you, Andrew.
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 4th, 2016, 6:26 pm

So, OK, a playing card is in the box. That's clever. But in the final analysis, so what? I am not posting to judge the merits of Toibox, the people who are marketing it, the various methods and handling that can be employed, or to compare it to other methods or routines. I honestly don't care about any of that. For me, the greater issue is what meaning , if any, a signed card ending up in a box has for the laymen spectators (as opposed to magicians)? I mean besides the amazement that the magician was able to "pull it off" (whether it's a card in a box or at any number, or four aces assembling together), what is there for a spectator to care about or to take away from it emotionally, such as in a great book, film or play that is truly moving?

After so many years in magic I have finally gotten around (belatedly) to reading Henning Nelms' "Magic and Showmanship, a Handbook for Conjurors." This has literally transformed the way I look at and evaluate everything I do in magic - cups and balls, card and coin routines - everything. I think it is must reading! If magic is to be more than a puzzle (albeit an amazing one at times), the net result of the performance needs to be more than the creation of amazement, i.e., "How in the world did he do that?" Or, "Wow, he's really quick with his hands." A lot of people hate magic because they hate being fooled, so the goal should be to present magic in a way that the "fooling," while obviously necessary, is a distant second to the theme, or the powerful message, or the engaging, fascinating, or uplifting story, or yes, even the comedy and hilarity which makes people laugh their a ---s off and forget their problems. And when it is presented within such frameworks, with that in mind, spectators will most often not even try to figure out "how he did it." Rather, their focus will be on loving the performer, rather than hating magic and magicians. There is so much I feel I could write about what I have learned from Nelms. But instead, I will just highly recommend that anyone interested in taking magic to its highest plateau, and in understanding the psychology behind great showmanship and what really matters to people (laymen not magicians), read his book. Just in the short time since I have started trying to implement his principles, the reactions have been significantly better than they were before, and I am totally psyched to know it will just keep getting better.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 4th, 2016, 8:18 pm

Andrew Pinard wrote:
JonKamm wrote:I have performed card to box more than 100,000 times over the past 20 years under real world conditions for every person imaginable under every condition imaginable.


That means over fourteen times a day, seven days a week, for twenty years.

Kudos! Not easy to get to those numbers...

I have spent plenty of time using "card to impossible location" in restaurant work over the years and can testify to its strengths. Even published my "Poor Man's Nest of Boxes" using Altoids tins back in The Magic Menu back in 2002. I've used many different containers (including miniature "Barrel of Monkeys" barrels in my bar act). While I've only performed my version a couple thousand times over the last twenty years, I've never had audience members ask for the box.

Still and all, best wishes with the product! Always good to have people thinking, developing, and sharing their pet handlings with others.


Much more than that Andrew. I worked Walter Payton's Roundhouse for 14 years 3 nights a week 7 hours a night. At the same time I worked TGIFridays and Champps Americanna. Ive had as many as 6 restaurants a week going. I work a lot Andrew. I have not been without a weekly restaurant gig for 22 years now. I'm working 3 currently.

You guys trashing something you know nothing about doesn't bother me. Every working pro I have shown this to loves it and uses it. They have stopped using the boxes and techniques they were using and switched to Toibox.
I know Toibox is good. I know its better than anything out there. I don't know how often you guys work but Toibox may not be for you. That's fine.
Last edited by JonKamm on February 4th, 2016, 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 4th, 2016, 8:34 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:The effect he's actually doing has nothing to do with the Bruno Hennig trick. What he's doing is a repeat card-to-cardcase, but contrived onto a metal "mints" box so he can produce the mints at the end.


ah - that explains a lot.

So many magicians have no idea what effect they are attempting to produce, and even fewer have ever considered to define (for themselves or their audiences) the DRAMATIC method being alleged.

If his 'effect' is I can sneak this card into the box witnout you catching me, then I'm not surprised people suspect he's sneaking the card in! or using trap doors.

I'm just not a fan of making the method (or A method) the effect, but I understand it can be a viable approach if managed thoughtfully and with intention. I also don't think the feelingful response one can hope to achieve would be very deep as one is essentially posing a 'catch me if you can' game - but that can be fun in small doses.

All the more reason to be clear that what he is offering is not an improvement on the Hennig or any other version of that effect. It's an entirely different beast all together.

there is value in being able to recognize that.

It's a different beast all together. I think the marketing copy is misjudged.
There is good thinking in this. The cancelling from phase to phase is well crafted. Some bits are open-ended and allows for jazzing. A few bits are a tad 'cozy' in handling, but not overly so. The Bruno Hennig piece is a part of it, but I wouldn't consider this a replacement for the Bruno Hennig routine, especially not in a formal close-up show. But I think this is really useful in a bar or restaurant where some see it for the first time and other's see it for the third time that evening. Even more useful in tough or rough venues. I like what I've seen. But I think Jonathan Kamm need to rewrite the marketing copy.


Thanks Tom,

You understand what Toibox has to offer. As far as the copy goes. I sent out free copies of Toibox for review months before the release. Got back plenty of input. The ad copy was written and rewritten and ok'd by professionals I trust. Even when presented to Penguin they were impressed with it and thought it hit all the marks. I'm quite happy with how that all turned out. But of course I don't expect to please everyone.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 4th, 2016, 10:50 pm

you made a post in a discussion forum and people are discussing it. You surely didn't expect everyone to fawn over it just because you posted it, did you?

Your ad copy is poorly conceived. It suggests you do not understand what it is you are actually offering.

That's not trashing something - that's the product of thoughtful consideration and discussion.

That IS what you hoped for by posting this in a discussion forum, right?

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 1:34 am

Brad Henderson wrote:you made a post in a discussion forum and people are discussing it. You surely didn't expect everyone to fawn over it just because you posted it, did you?

Your ad copy is poorly conceived. It suggests you do not understand what it is you are actually offering.

That's not trashing something - that's the product of thoughtful consideration and discussion.

That IS what you hoped for by posting this in a discussion forum, right?


You're funny Brad. The guy who hasn't watched any of the tutorial is telling the man who created it and has been using it for 20 years that he doesn't understand what it is. You are interesting I'll give you that. I also admire your passion for sticking to your guns even when you don't know what you are talking about.

The ad copy is quite good actually. Its been checked by professionals who I trust and admire. Most importantly they have actually watched the tutorial and used the system.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 5th, 2016, 2:06 am

I have no doubt that plenty of magicians you respect glanced at the ad and didn't see the flaws. i will defer to Tom Stone's opinion. The marketing was misjudged.

it's ok.

magicians think like magicians.

as I said, I have no doubt this is exactly the kind of thing people who buy magic tricks will like.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 2:59 am

Brad Henderson wrote:I have doubt plenty of magicians you respect looked at it and didn't see the flaws. i will defer to Tom Stone's opinion. The marketing was misjudged.

it's ok.

magicians think like magicians.

as I said, I have no doubt this is exactly the kind of thing people who buy magic tricks will like.


Brad,
Having an opinion doesn't mean you are correct. You don't seem to me to be a fan of commercially produced magic. So I don't see you as any type of authority on the subject. I respect Tom's opinion but it is in the minority.

I created the Toibox system. I scripted, staged, filmed and edited the tutorial and trailer. I shot and designed the ad image. I wrote the ad copy. I gathered Testimonials and released it at the opportune time. Its was an immediate best seller. Its been on the bestsellers list for 3 weeks. It's been holding the #1 spot for a week. Solid 5 star reviews!

But wait you think I don't understand what it is I am selling? You're funny Brad.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 5th, 2016, 3:14 am

yeah, I don't know anything about commercial magic products. Never written a word about them before this.

your ad copy is flawed. If it were well conceived none of this discussion would have occured.

I don't think you understand what you are doing. You said something in one of the previous posts which gives the game away. That doesn't mean you haven't created a product that doesn't work or doesn't have merit, only that you are mistaken in what is actually at play structurally and psychologically.

but that's not uncommon. Lot's of magicians can perform magic without having an accurate understanding of such things. Heck, I even had a great chat with one of your endorsers over a trixk he considered his feature. he had performed it for years, successfully, but based on a small misunderstanding which, when revealed, led to instant improvement.

It's ok. We don't expect you to improve. I have no doubt you believe you have the end all and be all work on this.

Again, I only have your ad and your subsequent comments to judge. They indicate to me that you may be approaching this in a flawed manner. Not that what you have doesn't work for what it is.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 4:27 am

Brad Henderson wrote:yeah, I don't know anything about commercial magic products. Never written a word about them before this.

your ad copy is flawed. If it were well conceived none of this discussion would have occured.

I don't think you understand what you are doing. You said something in one of the previous posts which gives the game away. That doesn't mean you haven't created a product that doesn't work or doesn't have merit, only that you are mistaken in what is actually at play structurally and psychologically.

but that's not uncommon. Lot's of magicians can perform magic without having an accurate understanding of such things. Heck, I even had a great chat with one of your endorsers over a trixk he considered his feature. he had performed it for years, successfully, but based on a small misunderstanding which, when revealed, led to instant improvement.

It's ok. We don't expect you to improve. I have no doubt you believe you have the end all and be all work on this.

Again, I only have your ad and your subsequent comments to judge. They indicate to me that you may be approaching this in a flawed manner. Not that what you have doesn't work for what it is.



The only flaw Brad was you trying to comment on a tutorial you never watched. Then acting like you knew what it was all about. Common mistake of those who think they know it all. I won't hold it against you. I'm sure you're a nice guy.
I love the "We don't expect you to improve" line. Classy.

Guess I'll limp off to my flawed career.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Tom Stone » February 5th, 2016, 5:15 am

JonKamm wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:you made a post in a discussion forum and people are discussing it. You surely didn't expect everyone to fawn over it just because you posted it, did you?

Your ad copy is poorly conceived. It suggests you do not understand what it is you are actually offering.

That's not trashing something - that's the product of thoughtful consideration and discussion.

That IS what you hoped for by posting this in a discussion forum, right?


You're funny Brad. The guy who hasn't watched any of the tutorial is telling the man who created it and has been using it for 20 years that he doesn't understand what it is. You are interesting I'll give you that. I also admire your passion for sticking to your guns even when you don't know what you are talking about.

The ad copy is quite good actually. Its been checked by professionals who I trust and admire. Most importantly they have actually watched the tutorial and used the system.

The ad copy is good. (The only flaw is that it starts with a negative, describing what it isn't). What I meant wasn't about the quality of writing, but that it reads a bit like something put out by the single-trick companies. Those who rush to market, with poor material and good ad copy. I myself have some dvds out that are produced by Penguin, and they are marketed with words like (copypaste):
"A rare opportunity to learn breathtaking miracles from one of magic's top thinkers. On this DVD Tom Stone explores some of the most innovative ideas ever shared on DVD. Prepare to be blown away by amazing methods and effects that are devastating, impossible and most of all entertaining."
Reading that, I wouldn't touch my own work with a ten foot pole, since it sounds like all other crap they produce. How rare can this "rare opportunity" actually be, when it is released as both download and massproduced dvd? Not very. It is actually not too bad, but you wouldn't know that from the ad copy.
It's all subjective, of course.

I think Brad is too negative and hard on you. I understand the initial suspicion, because I felt the same at first. My opinion didn't turn positive until I had visited your youtube channel. But Brad is taking it too far. I believe that if he had found the piece elsewhere, he would probably appreciate the work put into it. That's just a belief though.

As good as the original Bruno Hennig routine is, one is screwed if some drunk guy snatches the box up and dont give it back. That you have a solution for that situation is, to me, one of the biggest selling points.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 6:14 am

Tom Stone wrote:
JonKamm wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:you made a post in a discussion forum and people are discussing it. You surely didn't expect everyone to fawn over it just because you posted it, did you?

Your ad copy is poorly conceived. It suggests you do not understand what it is you are actually offering.

That's not trashing something - that's the product of thoughtful consideration and discussion.

That IS what you hoped for by posting this in a discussion forum, right?


You're funny Brad. The guy who hasn't watched any of the tutorial is telling the man who created it and has been using it for 20 years that he doesn't understand what it is. You are interesting I'll give you that. I also admire your passion for sticking to your guns even when you don't know what you are talking about.

The ad copy is quite good actually. Its been checked by professionals who I trust and admire. Most importantly they have actually watched the tutorial and used the system.

The ad copy is good. (The only flaw is that it starts with a negative, describing what it isn't). What I meant wasn't about the quality of writing, but that it reads a bit like something put out by the single-trick companies. Those who rush to market, with poor material and good ad copy. I myself have some dvds out that are produced by Penguin, and they are marketed with words like (copypaste):
"A rare opportunity to learn breathtaking miracles from one of magic's top thinkers. On this DVD Tom Stone explores some of the most innovative ideas ever shared on DVD. Prepare to be blown away by amazing methods and effects that are devastating, impossible and most of all entertaining."
Reading that, I wouldn't touch my own work with a ten foot pole, since it sounds like all other crap they produce. How rare can this "rare opportunity" actually be, when it is released as both download and massproduced dvd? Not very. It is actually not too bad, but you wouldn't know that from the ad copy.
It's all subjective, of course.

I think Brad is too negative and hard on you. I understand the initial suspicion, because I felt the same at first. My opinion didn't turn positive until I had visited your youtube channel. But Brad is taking it too far. I believe that if he had found the piece elsewhere, he would probably appreciate the work put into it. That's just a belief though.

As good as the original Bruno Hennig routine is, one is screwed if some drunk guy snatches the box up and dont give it back. That you have a solution for that situation is, to me, one of the biggest selling points.


Thanks Tom I appreciate the comments and the support. As far as the ad copy goes you are correct. Its subjective. :)

As far as Brad goes this saying comes to mind...

"A man wise enough to give advice is wise enough not to."

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Andrew Pinard » February 5th, 2016, 6:53 am

JonKamm wrote:You guys trashing something you know nothing about doesn't bother me.


Please don't lump me in with "guys trashing", I merely pointed out the numbers. As I inferred in my post, I am always thankful when a working performer shares anything out of their repertoire.

You work a lot. With the exception of my years doing beverage promotions (twenty bar shows in twenty different bars in ten hours), I can't even imagine working seven hours in a restaurant. Too much like factory work for me.

The discussion (as I see it) has mostly been an academic discussion behind the merits of your approach. It is understandable to take that personally, but you shouldn't. You have released what works for you and your audiences. Others will decide what works best for them. There is no responsibility on your part to question their motives. As they say, there is no such thing as bad press. The discussions are encouraging others to check out (and buy) your product. Step back and enjoy it...

Again, best wishes on your sales!

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 5th, 2016, 11:51 am

here we have a grown man who posts his ad in a discussion forum and is now butt hurt that people are actually discussing that ad he posted in the discussion forum! In that ad I was commanded to:

•Imagine Tommy Wonders ring box routine except you show the box empty before and after! It doesn't just appear empty it is empty and can be examined!



So I did. And, like RK, mentioned that tne ability to show the box empty before and after adds nothing to this effect, and it serves to eliminate no method a real human would come up with. This 'feature' is relevant only to people who already know how the Wonder/Kaps/Hennig method works.

You then told me I should:

•Imagine performing the strongest possible card to impossible location with an ungimmicked mint tin you buy for under $2


Well, getting a card into a box ISN'T a card to impossible location, especially if you are opening and closing it to show it is empty. A small quibble but it demonstrates sloppy thinking. More importantly, the standard card to box handlings can be done with any box, and have been done with any box for ages. this 'feature' appeals
only to people ignorant of the history of work behind this effect.

Now, I realize that some people might care that :

Through word-of-mouth alone, this trick has
1. climbed Penguins top 10 list2. gotten raving five-star reviews from paying customers
3. and has top pros singing its praises
4. Most importantly, they're ACTUALLY PERFORMING


But some of us HAVE been around the magic for magicians industry a while. We know some of the people who provided endorsements. We know how endorsements work and we know that a popular selling trick is proof that the trick appeals to magicians who buy tricks, and those values are often very different from those who are interested more in the audience's response than the magician's own self pleasure.

I mention this only to point out that giving is quotes by people who have interest in selling product as well, is not going to stop experienced magic buyers from being suspect of a tricks claims. Seeing these names does not numb our brains to a thoughtful consideration of the claims made.

You have also made statements that suggest you have not clearly defined either the effect OR the alleged dramatic method employed either for yourself or your audience. But I don't think that matters to you.

If you didn't want to subject your attempt at free advertising to scrutiny, you shouldn't have posted it in a discussion forum.

don't blame people for thinking carefully about what you have told them to think about. If they draw what you feel are incorrect conckusions from your ad, then your ad is poorly considered - in spite of what the company that sells as many products to as many magicians (most of whom who will never perform them) has told you.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 5th, 2016, 1:23 pm

Jon, don't post advertisements for tricks here if you don't want them to be examined closely, and the trick discussed in detail, by us. That's what we do.

Tom, Brad, Andrew, and myself are all long-experienced in our field and even if we don't agree with one another, we don't make negative remarks about each other. Tom sees some merit in your product, Brad and I see a product that misses the mark and makes little sense. Brad likes to write (or dictate, I assume) at length about these things. My remarks are more terse.

If you can't accept criticism, then it's a bad idea to put things on the market.
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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 5th, 2016, 2:26 pm

all typed by thumb!!!

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Tom Stone » February 5th, 2016, 2:33 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:all typed by thumb!!!

I'm a bit curious about what you would think about the actual work, rather than the promo. I'll fund the purchase for you, Brad. What's your paypal?

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 3:24 pm

Andrew Pinard wrote:
JonKamm wrote:You guys trashing something you know nothing about doesn't bother me.


Please don't lump me in with "guys trashing", I merely pointed out the numbers. As I inferred in my post, I am always thankful when a working performer shares anything out of their repertoire.

You work a lot. With the exception of my years doing beverage promotions (twenty bar shows in twenty different bars in ten hours), I can't even imagine working seven hours in a restaurant. Too much like factory work for me.

The discussion (as I see it) has mostly been an academic discussion behind the merits of your approach. It is understandable to take that personally, but you shouldn't. You have released what works for you and your audiences. Others will decide what works best for them. There is no responsibility on your part to question their motives. As they say, there is no such thing as bad press. The discussions are encouraging others to check out (and buy) your product. Step back and enjoy it...

Again, best wishes on your sales!


Thanks Andrew, I wasn't including you in the group of thrashers. Thanks for your comments and support. :)

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 4:07 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Jon, don't post advertisements for tricks here if you don't want them to be examined closely, and the trick discussed in detail, by us. That's what we do.

Tom, Brad, Andrew, and myself are all long-experienced in our field and even if we don't agree with one another, we don't make negative remarks about each other. Tom sees some merit in your product, Brad and I see a product that misses the mark and makes little sense. Brad likes to write (or dictate, I assume) at length about these things. My remarks are more terse.

If you can't accept criticism, then it's a bad idea to put things on the market.


Hi Richard,
You are a legend in magic. I respect your opinion. I don't agree, but I understand your viewpoint.

I accept criticism. But keep in mind I get to criticize it in return. I get to dissagree. I get to tell you you are wrong. Its a two way street.

I'm no newbie here. I've been posting my work, Ideas, viewpoints on YouTube for a decade. Hundreds of videos are available to peruse and criticize. I have over 5000 subscribers. I'm not afraid of criticism. But if you "give it" you have to "take it" as well. Its only fair. Ive been banned from the Cafe twice. I have an entire forum in the Netherlands devoted to hating me.

"If you don't have haters, you are not doing anything worthwhile."

I work for my layman audiences. I don't work for magicians. I work in the bar and restaurant market. I only do close up. Ive focused on that my entire career. I'm good at it. Better than most.

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Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 4:09 pm

JonKamm wrote:
Andrew Pinard wrote:
JonKamm wrote:You guys trashing something you know nothing about doesn't bother me.


Please don't lump me in with "guys trashing", I merely pointed out the numbers. As I inferred in my post, I am always thankful when a working performer shares anything out of their repertoire.

You work a lot. With the exception of my years doing beverage promotions (twenty bar shows in twenty different bars in ten hours), I can't even imagine working seven hours in a restaurant. Too much like factory work for me.

The discussion (as I see it) has mostly been an academic discussion behind the merits of your approach. It is understandable to take that personally, but you shouldn't. You have released what works for you and your audiences. Others will decide what works best for them. There is no responsibility on your part to question their motives. As they say, there is no such thing as bad press. The discussions are encouraging others to check out (and buy) your product. Step back and enjoy it...

Again, best wishes on your sales!


Thanks Andrew, I wasn't including you in the group of trashers. Thanks for your comments and support. :)

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 5th, 2016, 4:23 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:here we have a grown man who posts his ad in a discussion forum and is now butt hurt that people are actually discussing that ad he posted in the discussion forum! In that ad I was commanded to:

•Imagine Tommy Wonders ring box routine except you show the box empty before and after! It doesn't just appear empty it is empty and can be examined!



So I did. And, like RK, mentioned that tne ability to show the box empty before and after adds nothing to this effect, and it serves to eliminate no method a real human would come up with. This 'feature' is relevant only to people who already know how the Wonder/Kaps/Hennig method works.

You then told me I should:

•Imagine performing the strongest possible card to impossible location with an ungimmicked mint tin you buy for under $2


Well, getting a card into a box ISN'T a card to impossible location, especially if you are opening and closing it to show it is empty. A small quibble but it demonstrates sloppy thinking. More importantly, the standard card to box handlings can be done with any box, and have been done with any box for ages. this 'feature' appeals
only to people ignorant of the history of work behind this effect.

Now, I realize that some people might care that :

Through word-of-mouth alone, this trick has
1. climbed Penguins top 10 list2. gotten raving five-star reviews from paying customers
3. and has top pros singing its praises
4. Most importantly, they're ACTUALLY PERFORMING


But some of us HAVE been around the magic for magicians industry a while. We know some of the people who provided endorsements. We know how endorsements work and we know that a popular selling trick is proof that the trick appeals to magicians who buy tricks, and those values are often very different from those who are interested more in the audience's response than the magician's own self pleasure.

I mention this only to point out that giving is quotes by people who have interest in selling product as well, is not going to stop experienced magic buyers from being suspect of a tricks claims. Seeing these names does not numb our brains to a thoughtful consideration of the claims made.

You have also made statements that suggest you have not clearly defined either the effect OR the alleged dramatic method employed either for yourself or your audience. But I don't think that matters to you.

If you didn't want to subject your attempt at free advertising to scrutiny, you shouldn't have posted it in a discussion forum.

don't blame people for thinking carefully about what you have told them to think about. If they draw what you feel are incorrect conckusions from your ad, then your ad is poorly considered - in spite of what the company that sells as many products to as many magicians (most of whom who will never perform them) has told you.


Brad,

Richard was correct. You sure like to dictate. I don't buy what you're selling Brad. Get over it. Thankfully I was warned about you before coming here. Now that was some good advise.


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