"This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

"This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » January 18th, 2016, 4:38 am

TOIBOX Card To Box System by Jonathan Kamm

First of all what is Toibox? Well it's not a box. There are plenty of those on the market. What it is is a series of utility sleights and routines designed to work with a specific style of mint tin. Mainly the mini size Altoids tins or any similar size tin will work. The moves consist of switches, transfers, loading techniques, displays, reveals and basic handling of the tin. The system is based on the Fred Kaps style of card to box with one big difference. There are no gimmicks! Now there are a lot of boxes out there you can purchase that do the trick for you. Toibox does everything those boxes do but it's cleaner and more versatile. Plus it does things that were never possible in a card to box routine. (See list below) I’ve come up with tons of routines in the past years but I'm sure once this hits the magic community there will be hundreds more and even new moves created to add to the system. Don't think that you have to learn the whole system. Just adding a couple Toibox moves can improve routines you already have. Since card to box was created it's always been a one trick pony. You bring out the box. You find their card in the box. You put the box away.
With Toibox you can do full routines with the tin. With multiple revelations and multiple phases using multiple selections and even multiple tins. The tins are available everywhere. Go buy yourself a couple today then download Toibox. You will be glad you did!

Why Toibox?
• Box can be shown empty before and after routines. It doesn’t just appear empty it is empty.
• You can place the empty box in the spectators hand and make their signed selected card appear inside.
• The spectator can open and remove their signed selection
• Multiple cards can be found multiple times in one routine.
• Final loads are now possible. End a routine with the box full of mints, salt, paper clips, crickets, anything.
• Multiple ways to make their card appear inside.
• Can be routined without needing to secretly fold the card.
• Hundreds of routine possibilities.
• Works with cards, billets, bills. You can even switch mid routine.
• Toibox is super small. Takes little pocket space.
• Resets instantly.
• If you forget the tin just pick one up on the way to your gig.

REVIEWS:

"Jon's work with the little mint tin is unsurpassed. I'm not aware of any work as comprehensive as this. Highly recommended!"
—Jack Carpenter

“Toibox is a workers dream!”
—John Carey

“This isn't a card trick using a mint box, it's a full course in the card to impossible location.”
—Chris Kavanagh

“WOW it's like the sophistication of Okito coin box moves done with the classic folded card in the box.”
—Steve Draun

“I loved the reverse routine, doing a card fold without doing the fold – that is going in my repertoire.”
—Allan Ackerman

“Everyone out there is searching for the perfect folded card to box where you can show it empty...
perform the effect...then again show it empty…you have done it my friend!”
—Cody Fisher

“That fooled the F@#& out of me!”
—Bill Cook

“Toibox by Jonathan Kamm is fantastic! No need for gimmicked boxes.”
—Todd Lamanske

“I am over the top with this! This beats them all! Forget what you already know about Card To Box”
—Doc Eason

“Jonathan has taken an old standard and given the old girl a new dress. It’s a worker. Go get Toibox!”
—Paul Gordon

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/6613

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » January 30th, 2016, 1:28 am

Through word-of-mouth alone, this trick has

1. climbed Penguins top 10 list
2. gotten raving five-star reviews from paying customers
3. and has top pros singing its praises
4. Most importantly, they're ACTUALLY PERFORMING IT

Toibox isn't a bare-bones "quick trick." It's a polished multi-phase routine that's been perfected over a decade of ENTERTAINING. It's a refined masterpiece you will confidently put right into your act. Nothing is cleaner, Nothing is more versatile, nothing is stronger then Toibox.

•Imagine Tommy Wonders ring box routine except you show the box empty before and after! It doesn't just appear empty it is empty and can be examined!

•Imagine finding their card in the mint tin then repeating the effect by placing the empty tin in the spectators hand then having a card selected, yet you still make that card appear in the tin they are holding. They open the tin. They remove the card. No gimmicks. Nothing to find.

•Imagine performing the strongest possible card to impossible location with an ungimmicked mint tin you buy for under $2

Toibox is the real deal. Beats any gimmicked box version on the market.

This is how Card To Box should have always been done!

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4099
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 1st, 2016, 4:08 pm

how many times has a lay person wanted to see inside the box after the card was seemingly removed? Seems like you are playing to people who already know how the trick is supposed to work, with that feature

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4099
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 1st, 2016, 4:09 pm

also, Bruno Hennig created this approach to card to box. Not Fred Kaps.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 1:17 am

Brad Henderson wrote:how many times has a lay person wanted to see inside the box after the card was seemingly removed? Seems like you are playing to people who already know how the trick is supposed to work, with that feature


Hi Brad,
I've been using this in bars and restaurants for the last 2 decades. People often want to see the box. With toibox you have that option. Historically card to box is a one trick pony. You bring out the box, a card is selected and it ends up in the box, you put the box away. With Toibox you can do that and leave the box on the table to be examined. People inevitably want to see it again. With Toibox you can! You can place that empty tin in the spectators hand. Have a card selected and the card appears in the tin the spectator is holding. You don't touch the tin. The spectator opens and removes the card. If that wasn't enough you can end with a final load. The tin can be full of anything you wish.

This is just one routine option. Toibox is a system. A system of switches, transfers, loading techniques, reveals, displays. There are more than half a dozen ways to make their card appear in the tin. The reverse routine is highly praised because of the fact there is no mercury fold or any secret fold needed. The Toibox techniques even work with a clear box.

Imagine doing Tommy Wonders routine but you start by showing the tin empty and placing it under an over turned glass. You do the Ambitious Card and finish by revealing the card is inside the tin. Everything can be examined. The tin is empty.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 1:31 am

Brad Henderson wrote:also, Bruno Hennig created this approach to card to box. Not Fred Kaps.

Hi Brad,

Yes I mention that in the tutorial. But it is commonly known as the "Kaps" style of card to box. I went with that in the description because I thought more people would be familiar with that. But yes you are correct. I also credit Scotty York and Jamie Ian Swiss, Bruno Canaldi and Tommy Wonder.

If you have any other questions please feel free to ask me here. I try to keep an eye on all the forums.

Toibox is doing great. Its been on the bestsellers list on Penguin for three weeks straight and currently holds the number 1 position. Solid 5 Star reviews! Pros are not only praising it. They are using it.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4099
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 2nd, 2016, 8:04 am

I have no doubt that this is the kind of product magicians will love.

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 974
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 2nd, 2016, 8:17 am

Image
"It takes the rag off the bush!"

Luigi Anzivino
Posts: 45
Joined: June 29th, 2008, 12:44 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 2nd, 2016, 1:34 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:I have no doubt that this is the kind of product magicians will love.


Brad, I am curious as to why you seem to be so reflexively hostile to a trick you seem to have not seen performed or studied? Would a discussion of the actual method and/or effect be more productive?

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25112
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 2nd, 2016, 1:49 pm

He's hostile to crap, generally.

There is absolutely no need to ever show the box empty after you dump the card out. None. It's not an improvement, merely something to sell to magicians.

This is also not a free advertising service for your products. You might consider actually taking out a paid advertisement in Genii.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2328
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Pete McCabe » February 2nd, 2016, 2:30 pm

I've always thought examinability is a professional/amateur divide.

Professionals do a trick and put the props away. People aren't asking "can I see that box" as you put it away, and if they do, you can easily decline because you are moving on to the next trick. If the spectator handles the box during the trick, that usually makes things seem innocent enough.

But if an amateur does a trick in someone's living room, afterwards someone might very well ask "can I see that box?" And if the answer is no, that's at least an awkward moment, and not very magical.

So it seems like Toibox might be more suitable for informal performance settings than other versions of this trick that I've seen.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4174
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby erdnasephile » February 2nd, 2016, 2:40 pm

I think unwanted efforts to examine props (by sober spectators) can sometimes spring from a mismatch between the claims of an effect and the level of conviction of its construction.
Last edited by erdnasephile on February 2nd, 2016, 6:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Roger M.
Posts: 1424
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Roger M. » February 2nd, 2016, 3:23 pm

Wasn't this released in something like 2006?

Why post about it in 2016?

User avatar
Tom Stone
Posts: 1278
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Tom Stone » February 2nd, 2016, 3:32 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:He's hostile to crap, generally.

There is absolutely no need to ever show the box empty after you dump the card out. None. It's not an improvement, merely something to sell to magicians.

Seems to have been in his working repertiore for at least 5 years, according to his youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/kammagic/videos
It looks like this is more open to 'jazzing' than the usual method, and there seem to be some vague shades of Paul Gertner's "Headache Trick". Whatever this is, it doesn't smell like crap.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4099
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 2nd, 2016, 3:44 pm

here is my issue:

a signed card magically disappears from the deck and appears inside the box. you remove it from the box.

why should any human want to look at the box at that point - simply from a narrative perspective. The effect is that you made something travel or appear inside the box. Obviously the cars is NOT in the box at the time it was signed, so there is no reason to show the box empty. There may be many things in the box, but if the audience thinks their signed card is in there before they pick it sign it then you clearly are putting their focus in the wrong places, or your aidiences are devoid of logical thinking.

it's interesting to us as magicians because we know how the trick is supposed to work. Showing it empty is relevant to other magicians. A normal human shouldnt care if anything is in the box. They have their card in their hand. they know it's NOT in there.

(unless you want to actually make that the effect, in which case one should let them see the card in the box or not at all.)

Now, once the card has been removed from the box, the spectator should be thinking along the lines of 'how did he get it in there' and not 'is there anything still in the box'? And if there is something still In the box, what does it matter because they just saw their signed card come from inside and it certainly isn't there anymore.

What else could possible be in the box that is relevant to a real person?

nothing.

the only reason we want to show the box empty is to impress people who know how the trick should be done already.

the problem is seems is that magicians, instead of putting their attention on the effect, put their attention on the method and props.

A signed card that vanishes from the pack and appears in a box is not improved by showing the box empty before or after. That information is superfluous to the information required for the effect to make sense. by adding it, one only puts a spotlight on the methid or needlessly foreshadows the effect.

Luigi Anzivino
Posts: 45
Joined: June 29th, 2008, 12:44 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 2nd, 2016, 3:48 pm

Tom Stone wrote:Whatever this is, it doesn't smell like crap.


Yeah, it isn't crap. I have no stakes in this other than I've actually purchased and tried the methods taught, and I found the principles very interesting. It is a series of utility moves, as the description says, that allow you to load and unload a regular ungimmicked box under your spectators' noses without detection. In combination with standard moves this opens up possibilities that are not afforded by more traditional methods. I've shown this to lay audiences and it generates very strong reactions, but lots of things do of course. I've shown it to receptive magicians and they were immediately intrigued by the possibilities and started brainstorming ways of creating something even stronger and tight than the routine offered with the tutorial.

So, why the knee-jerk reaction to something you have no actual knowledge of?

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 4:14 pm

Roger M. wrote:Wasn't this released in something like 2006?

Why post about it in 2016?


Hi Roger,
Yes I did release a manuscript in 2006. It contained some of the basic moves and some routines. But it has progressed a lot since then. I use this regularly and have been for almost 20 years. The new release contains new moves new ideas and this is the first time the entire system has been shot on video. The tutorial is 80 minutes.

Thanks, That was a great question.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 4:19 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:He's hostile to crap, generally.

There is absolutely no need to ever show the box empty after you dump the card out. None. It's not an improvement, merely something to sell to magicians.

Seems to have been in his working repertiore for at least 5 years, according to his youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/kammagic/videos
It looks like this is more open to 'jazzing' than the usual method, and there seem to be some vague shades of Paul Gertner's "Headache Trick". Whatever this is, it doesn't smell like crap.


Thanks Tom,

Yes I've been doing this for almost 20 years. You're right about the jazzing part. The routine possibilities are endless.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 4:55 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:I've always thought examinability is a professional/amateur divide.

Professionals do a trick and put the props away. People aren't asking "can I see that box" as you put it away, and if they do, you can easily decline because you are moving on to the next trick. If the spectator handles the box during the trick, that usually makes things seem innocent enough.

But if an amateur does a trick in someone's living room, afterwards someone might very well ask "can I see that box?" And if the answer is no, that's at least an awkward moment, and not very magical.

So it seems like Toibox might be more suitable for informal performance settings than other versions of this trick that I've seen.


Hi Pete,
I'm a professional. Have been for 2 decades. I work bars and restaurants for a living. I make my living only doing close up. I'm out in the people. Often totally surrounded. If you're doing card tricks and you bring out another prop. In this case a box. It raises suspicion. People are intrigued. They want to know what the box is for. This is just human nature. even more so if the box is unusual (Clear, Mystery, Lightning). Toibox is organic. Its a mint tin, it is completely examinable, there is nothing for them to find. If the box is unusual the audience suspects it being a trick box immediately. Even if it is put away they still think "I bet it had something to do with that box". The complete openness of Toibox dispells any notion of the box being part of the solution. As the performer this freedom allows you to relax and concentrate on presentation.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 5:11 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:here is my issue:

a signed card magically disappears from the deck and appears inside the box. you remove it from the box.

why should any human want to look at the box at that point - simply from a narrative perspective. The effect is that you made something travel or appear inside the box. Obviously the cars is NOT in the box at the time it was signed, so there is no reason to show the box empty. There may be many things in the box, but if the audience thinks their signed card is in there before they pick it sign it then you clearly are putting their focus in the wrong places, or your aidiences are devoid of logical thinking.

it's interesting to us as magicians because we know how the trick is supposed to work. Showing it empty is relevant to other magicians. A normal human shouldnt care if anything is in the box. They have their card in their hand. they know it's NOT in there.

(unless you want to actually make that the effect, in which case one should let them see the card in the box or not at all.)



Now, once the card has been removed from the box, the spectator should be thinking along the lines of 'how did he get it in there' and not 'is there anything still in the box'? And if there is something still In the box, what does it matter because they just saw their signed card come from inside and it certainly isn't there anymore.

What else could possible be in the box that is relevant to a real person?

nothing.

the only reason we want to show the box empty is to impress people who know how the trick should be done already.

the problem is seems is that magicians, instead of putting their attention on the effect, put their attention on the method and props.

A signed card that vanishes from the pack and appears in a box is not improved by showing the box empty before or after. That information is superfluous to the information required for the effect to make sense. by adding it, one only puts a spotlight on the methid or needlessly foreshadows the effect.



Hello again Brad,

I'm copying and pasting this because I think it relates to your thoughts as well.

I'm a professional. Have been for 2 decades. I work bars and restaurants for a living. I make my living only doing close up. I'm out in the people. Often totally surrounded. If you're doing card tricks and you bring out another prop. In this case a box. It raises suspicion. People are intrigued. They want to know what the box is for. This is just human nature. even more so if the box is unusual (Clear, Mystery, Lightning). Toibox is organic. Its a mint tin, it is completely examinable, there is nothing for them to find. If the box is unusual the audience suspects it being a trick box immediately. Even if it is put away they still think "I bet it had something to do with that box". The complete openness of Toibox dispells any notion of the box being part of the solution. As the performer this freedom allows you to relax and concentrate on presentation. Anytime you can eliminate a possible solution it adds to the strength of the effect.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 5:24 pm

Hi,

If any of you in the above thread would like to download Toibox to see what its all about please feel free. If any of you are displeased with it contact me below and I will happily paypal you a refund.

jonathankamm@me.com

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4099
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Henderson » February 2nd, 2016, 5:42 pm

my question has nothing to do with the answer you provided. My question address something other than where you have your focus.

being able to show the box empty before or after the card appears does not eliminate any method a person would come up with unless they already knew the Bruno Hennig method.

I agree that using a normal box is less likely to arouse suspicion. That's not what my comments addressed.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2328
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Pete McCabe » February 2nd, 2016, 6:03 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:What else could possible be in the box that is relevant to a real person?


A trapdoor.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4174
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby erdnasephile » February 2nd, 2016, 6:06 pm

JonKamm wrote:Hi,

If any of you in the above thread would like to download Toibox to see what its all about please feel free. If any of you are displeased with it contact me below and I will happily paypal you a refund.

jonathankamm@me.com


Doesn't get much better than that--an exceedingly generous offer. I'm impressed.

Thanks!

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 6:27 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:my question has nothing to do with the answer you provided. My question address something other than where you have your focus.

being able to show the box empty before or after the card appears does not eliminate any method a person would come up with unless they already knew the Bruno Hennig method.

I agree that using a normal box is less likely to arouse suspicion. That's not what my comments addressed.


Brad,
The average person is going to suspect that the box is tricked, or gimmicked, or rigged somehow to accomplish the effect. They don't have to know how it is tricked or gimmicked or rigged. They just suspect that it is. The fact that the mint tin in Toibox can be shown comepletely empty and free of any tampering or gimmicks or trickery is a huge improvement over past techniques. When they see that the tin is exactly what it appears to be, a harmless ordinary tin the effect really becomes impossible.

observer
Posts: 342
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 5:32 am
Favorite Magician: Harry Kellar - Charlie Miller - Paul Rosini - Jay Marshall
Location: Chicago

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby observer » February 2nd, 2016, 6:31 pm

Pete McCabe wrote:I've always thought examinability is a professional/amateur divide.

Professionals do a trick and put the props away. People aren't asking "can I see that box" as you put it away, and if they do, you can easily decline
because you are moving on to the next trick. If the spectator handles the box during the trick, that usually makes things seem innocent enough.

But if an amateur does a trick in someone's living room, afterwards someone might very well ask "can I see that box?" And if the answer is no, that's at least an awkward moment, and not very magical.

So it seems like Toibox might be more suitable for informal performance settings than other versions of this trick that I've seen.


(bolded to emphasize responding to that part in particular) That's true for stage, platform, maybe more formal types of close-up. But Mr Kamm is a restaurant worker, and there the performer/spectator dynamic is different. When working from table to table you're making (temporary) friends with the specs. It's a professional performance, but it's more like doing a "trick" for friends/family than presenting effects for people who have paid to watch a magician perform.

(Based on my expertise as someone who has watched restaurant magic.)

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25112
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 2nd, 2016, 6:59 pm

If they think it has something to do with the box then your presentation is off.

They see an item in the box, and see you clearly dump out that item. As far as they're concerned, the box is empty.

If they don't think the box is empty, then they think you switched the card and you might as well not even bother doing the trick.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 7:36 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:If they think it has something to do with the box then you're presentation is off.

They see an item in the box, and see you clearly dump out that item. As far as they're concerned, the box is empty.

If they don't think the box is empty, then they think you switched the card and you might as well not even bother doing the trick.


Hi Richard,
The question is "How did you get the card in the box?" The prime suspect is the box. No presentation will hide the fact that there is this odd little box sitting there. They will suspect that there is a slit or a flap or a panel or some type of gimmickry that allowed you to get the card into that box. This is human nature. The gimmicked boxes on the market are odd, unusual, they peak curiosity. They don't appear in our everyday life. People are going to be suspicious. If this unusual box takes part in something that is unbelievable I have no doubt that the audience is going to suspect the box.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 25112
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 2nd, 2016, 7:56 pm

Maybe you don't understand the effect, since the box is on the table from the start.

The effect is not, "How did you get the card in the box?"

The effect is, "How could my card have been inside that box on the table before I even selected it?"
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1111
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 2nd, 2016, 8:43 pm

RICHARD wrote: "The effect is not, 'How did you get the card in the box?' The effect is, 'How could my card have been inside that box on the table before I even selected it?'"

That is a powerful distinction, and I concur. That difference in the spectator's paradigm illustrates the dichotomy between them perceiving the effect as puzzling, or as really magical. IMHO, it is up to us, as "magicians," to manage the presentation in a manner that will ensure it's the latter.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 9:01 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Maybe you don't understand the effect, since the box is on the table from the start.

The effect is not, "How did you get the card in the box?"

The effect is, "How could my card have been inside that box on the table before I even selected it?"


Yes that is the "effect." But any intelligent persons reasoning on how that was accomplished would lead them to the question. "How did he get my card inside the box?"

Mark Collier
Posts: 420
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca
Contact:

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Mark Collier » February 2nd, 2016, 9:01 pm

I have been performing “Mystery Solved” by David Penn in paid shows. He has two versions, one with the box being examinable but not your hands and first version with the box not being examinable but your hands are clean. The effect is the same if performed well. I really don’t think one is stronger than the other.

I bought ‘Toibox” and I am quite happy with it but not for the reasons the author touts. I don’t agree with his selling points. I don’t agree with the heat being on the box and other versions being inferior.

I like this because it is impromptu. These are utility sleights and got me thinking about using it in ways not mentioned in the video. I like that the effect can be repeated with them opening the box themselves. Of course, I wouldn’t say. “and this time, YOU opened it”.

In a similar way, I would flash the empty box during a gesture w/o calling explicit attention to it. At this point, they don’t know and shouldn’t suspect that you are going to repeat the effect.

I can imagine using this after an effect like Brother John Hammon’s ‘Devlish Miracle’ where you have two cards selected (and signed). You could do the pocket load and use it to reveal the first signed selection and now the box (after ‘inadvertently’ being shown empty) is already loaded with the second signed signed selection for the repeat.

I think most of the criticisms (which I tend to agree with) are directed at the authors’ arguments rather than the work itself.

On another note, buy an ad. I hear the rates are quite reasonable.

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 9:37 pm

Mark Collier wrote:I have been performing “Mystery Solved” by David Penn in paid shows. He has two versions, one with the box being examinable but not your hands and first version with the box not being examinable but your hands are clean. The effect is the same if performed well. I really don’t think one is stronger than the other.

I bought ‘Toibox” and I am quite happy with it but not for the reasons the author touts. I don’t agree with his selling points. I don’t agree with the heat being on the box and other versions being inferior.

I like this because it is impromptu. These are utility sleights and got me thinking about using it in ways not mentioned in the video. I like that the effect can be repeated with them opening the box themselves. Of course, I wouldn’t say. “and this time, YOU opened it”.

In a similar way, I would flash the empty box during a gesture w/o calling explicit attention to it. At this point, they don’t know and shouldn’t suspect that you are going to repeat the effect.

I can imagine using this after an effect like Brother John Hammon’s ‘Devlish Miracle’ where you have two cards selected (and signed). You could do the pocket load and use it to reveal the first signed selection and now the box (after ‘inadvertently’ being shown empty) is already loaded with the second signed signed selection for the repeat.

I think most of the criticisms (which I tend to agree with) are directed at the authors’ arguments rather than the work itself.

On another note, buy an ad. I hear the rates are quite reasonable.




Hi Mark,

Glad you like it. You are right. There are lots of reasons to like Toibox. My arguments are sound though. Its ok if you disagree. I've worked with every box imaginable. Nothing compares to all the advantages Toibox offers.

Mark Collier
Posts: 420
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Santa Barbara, Ca
Contact:

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Mark Collier » February 2nd, 2016, 9:57 pm

Hi Jon,
Are you familiar with 'Mystery Solved'?
Do you think the version with clean box but but dirty hands is inherently better than clean hands but dirty box?
Why7?

JonKamm
Posts: 30
Joined: March 8th, 2010, 7:51 am

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby JonKamm » February 2nd, 2016, 11:06 pm

Mark Collier wrote:Hi Jon,
Are you familiar with 'Mystery Solved'?
Do you think the version with clean box but but dirty hands is inherently better than clean hands but dirty box?
Why7?



Clean Box Dirty hands gets my vote. I want to be in control when I perform. You could clean your hands up pretty quickly then you would be clean box clean hands.

I do believe that doing the Clear box with the ToiBox techniques is better than Mystery Solved.

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 974
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 3rd, 2016, 4:50 am

Roger M. wrote:Wasn't this released in something like 2006?


In 2006 it was released in THIS FORM.

In 2016 it is updated and released as an instant download.

I have, as of yet, never purchased an instant download.

It has 43 five star reviews at Penguin Magic, so it must be meritorious.

I would however prefer it in it's original book form.

Luigi Anzivino
Posts: 45
Joined: June 29th, 2008, 12:44 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Luigi Anzivino » February 3rd, 2016, 6:41 pm

For what it's worth I performed this twice today for two groups of kids where I work; these are smart, college-educated twenty-somethings who know me well enough to not be afraid of reacting honestly and also know each other very well so they had some good off-the-cuff vocal reactions after the effect.

In the first group the guy whose signed card I found in the tin literally said out loud: "Wait, is there a trap door in the can?" and reached for it. In the second group the girl who signed the card, upon being invited to open it up and check that it had her signature on it, said: "Wait, before I even look at that, I want to check all that!" pointing to the deck and box sitting on the table.

Now, of course both those scenario could be managed if one was using a method that didn't allow for the props to be examined, but to suggest that the question of whether the box has something to do with the effect doesn't enter spectators' minds is wishful thinking, I feel. It's not so much about showing the box empty (although there are certainly plenty of gimmicked boxes on the market whose main selling point is that they appear empty right after the dump, so perhaps that's not such a silly concern after all…) but being able to let the spectators convince themselves that the box is free of guile.

But as Mark points out there are a series of moves that allow you to start thinking of possibilities when it comes to this plot that go beyond the included routine (which I feel is quite strong in its own right, by the way).

observer
Posts: 342
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 5:32 am
Favorite Magician: Harry Kellar - Charlie Miller - Paul Rosini - Jay Marshall
Location: Chicago

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby observer » February 3rd, 2016, 7:14 pm

Luigi Anzivino wrote:For what it's worth I performed this twice today for two groups of kids where I work; these are smart, college-educated twenty-somethings who know me


:shock: why would you ... why on Earth would anybody .... what were you hoping to accomplish when you did this?

.............

Still, that's sort of close, in a worst-possible-case-scenario sort of way, to what I wrote above. Under informal circumstances, good presentation requires some level of interaction with the audience - more interaction than would be appropriate under other conditions. That's when examinability is a valid consideration.

.............

There's a massive difference between getting "honest reactions" and getting "Ha, you can't fool us!" reactions, though.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4174
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby erdnasephile » February 3rd, 2016, 8:56 pm

Luigi Anzivino wrote:In the first group the guy whose signed card I found in the tin literally said out loud: "Wait, is there a trap door in the can?" and reached for it. In the second group the girl who signed the card, upon being invited to open it up and check that it had her signature on it, said: "Wait, before I even look at that, I want to check all that!" pointing to the deck and box sitting on the table.


First of all, I'm sorry to hear you got busted--that is never fun.

But secondly, something seems a bit off in these reactions. It seems that either these folks have seen you (or others) do a lot of magic or perhaps the construction of the routine/presentation led them to not perceive the intended effect, but go right to things that should have not been important.

For example, what normal spectator would pass up the chance to look at their mysteriously folded, signed card that appeared in an impossible place and instead turn aside to look at the deck and box? It really seems like something is unusual about her mental state (as Darwin Ortiz has pointed out, sometimes females in a male dominant office can be difficult spectators). Could it be that the presentation was of a challenging nature, or maybe the mercury fold aroused suspicion, or perhaps the climax of the routine was sensed too far in advance?

PS: I decided to put my money where my mouth is and bought the download. Once I have a chance to study it, I'll report back.
Last edited by erdnasephile on February 3rd, 2016, 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Roger M.
Posts: 1424
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: "This beats them all!"— Doc Eason

Postby Roger M. » February 3rd, 2016, 9:04 pm

Looks the same as it did in 2006.

Lots of fiddly cupping of the hands, weird turnovers, etc.


Return to “Close-Up Magic”