Raise Rise. A question

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Mr Hurley
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Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 10th, 2015, 7:50 am

I've only been in magic for a little over a year, I've been fascinated by Ray Kosby's work, and I want to make several of his works a permanent part of my repertoire (namely Silver and Bone, Rubber Nightmare, and Twixt The Threads), especially 'Raise Rise'.

I know it's a hard move and the Ambitious Riser is a tough cookie; does anyone have any pointers on the Ambitious Riser that aren't covered in the DVD?
Or is it just finding ones own personal touch and a 'good luck'?
Last edited by Mr Hurley on September 10th, 2015, 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raise Rise. Oh yes!

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 10th, 2015, 10:28 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7lB_d6v_eA

Might want to talk to the guy directly if you like his work.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby erdnasephile » September 11th, 2015, 5:54 pm

Mr. Hurley (a Lost fan, I presume?):

The original was first published in The Magical Arts Journal (June 1987) based on work by Ken Krenzel/Richard Kaufman (On the Up and Up) & Ernest Earick on an application of a Fred Robinson move : https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic ... s-journal/

However, it's pretty knacky to do well (at least for me), and I think the DVD may be the best place to learn it. (Chad Long even uses a silk passing over the deck when the move is done to hide the work).

There are other alternatives that address the effect of a card moving up in the deck. Aaron Fisher has a handling in his issue of Genii (in 2002, I think). In the non-sleight category, it's hard to beat Gaeton Bloom's Escalator.

I think before I would spend a lot of time on this effect, I would consider how I was going to sell it to the audience--is it going to be more impactful to the audiences I care to entertain more than standard AC moves that are less fiddly? To me, if the audience sees (or senses) movement of the fingers, framing, or weird grips it just kills the illusion.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 11th, 2015, 7:54 pm

If you are not an expert at difficult sleight of hand with cards, don't bother trying to learn "Raise Rise." It's is extremely difficult.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 11th, 2015, 10:14 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Mr. Hurley (a Lost fan, I presume?):


Hurley is my actual last name. Ironically, I have not seen Lost. I think it's funny there is a character that is named Hurley

erdnasephile wrote:The original was first published in The Magical Arts Journal (June 1987) based on work by Ken Krenzel/Richard Kaufaman & Ernest Earick on an application of a Fred Robinson move : https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic ... s-journal/

However, it's pretty knacky to do well (at least for me), and I think the DVD may be the best place to learn it. (Chad Long even uses a silk passing over the deck when the move is done to hide the work).

There are other alternatives that address the effect of a card moving up in the deck. Aaron Fisher has a handling in his issue of Genii (in 2002, I think). In the non-sleight category, it's hard to beat Gaeton Bloom's Escalator.


Thank you very much! I have those all written down and a researchin'-I-will-go!

erdnasephile wrote:I think before I would spend a lot of time on this effect, I would consider how I was going to sell it to the audience--is it going to be more impactful to the audiences I care to entertain more than standard AC moves that are less fiddly? To me, if the audience sees (or senses) movement of the fingers, framing, or weird grips it just kills the illusion.


I have a rough idea; use the gaff blank decks and have a rabbit drawn on one of the cards. Perform 'anti-gravity pass' and have the rabbit go right to the top. Exclaim that rabbits are pretty fast and that pull show them how the rabbit gets to the top so fast, then do 'Raise Rise' to demonstrate the rabbit pulling off the feat slower to the human eye. Finish it off with the rabbit speeding to the bottom of the deck. I'm researching more one-handed passes, but the idea would be to show how fast 'rabbits' can jump to the top of a deck

It's an idea, I have time to learn it. And it's really more a personal challenge than anything else. With some of the things I have been through, I am not deterred by the difficulty.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 11th, 2015, 10:57 pm

I like the rabbit image.

One handed passes like the Clip Shift? Hey if you can get that working in your hands - impressive.

Best of luck with your routine.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 11th, 2015, 11:43 pm

Just looked up Clipshift. Oh my goodness! PERFECT!

This routine is getting knackier by the minute. And it looks perfect for those double blank gaff decks. Go from 'rabbit' to GONE!

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 12th, 2015, 1:51 am

I cannot do "Raise Rise," so if you're on your way to learning it, my hat's off to you.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby erdnasephile » September 12th, 2015, 11:43 am

For those (like me) who were unfamiliar with the Clip Shift:

http://shop.dananddave.com/surfaced.html

Remember, back in the day how sleights like "The Ultra Move" were considered to be "impossible"? The newer tech makes that stuff feel easy in comparison. (Of course, doing almost any sleight poorly is pretty easy).

As much as I admire those who can do such things, I have to admit, I'm not much of a move monkey. These days, everything I spend time on has got to be practical, reliable and learned within a context of a routine. For me, that usually means more woodshedding on sleights I already know (or thought I knew).

The other stuff sure is fun to watch though, and I'm glad folks are pushing the boundaries.

I wish Mr. Hurley good hunting in his quest!

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Brad Henderson » September 12th, 2015, 11:50 am

I taught a nearly self working color change, inspired by the clip shift, on the Jeff McBride Mystery School TV episode on real world card magic (or something like that).

I believe you can access that video through the mystery school site.

Also, the best Visible Rising Card Illusion (other than Raise Rise) is in the Trap Door. also nearly self working!!!! Don't ignore his advice on the use of your words to enhance the illusion. have been doing this for years and it amazes people. (have worked on raise rise off and on for years and, like many, have not achieved technical competancy let alone anything nearing an effective illusion.)

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 12th, 2015, 11:57 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I cannot do "Raise Rise," so if you're on your way to learning it, my hat's off to you.


Well I appreciate it! I think there is a cost for learning Raise Rise: I'm not learning a whole lot of other moves in the process. I'm not early going to be the most 'well rounded' amateur.
That and the whole 'threat to patience' that I need to watch while working on it.

So far, I'm a week into it and I watch the Impossible Card Magic DVD portion of Raise Rise at least twice a day; this is how I feel about 'Raise Rise' so far:

https://instagram.com/p/7hUiR1QOPv/

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby erdnasephile » September 12th, 2015, 5:20 pm

Mr. Hurley:

To help you with your research: http://www.theory11.com/forums/threads/ ... ion.14086/

Ray Kosby himself weighed in on this thread with some references.

Have fun!

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby JHostler » September 12th, 2015, 5:36 pm

Mr Hurley wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:I cannot do "Raise Rise," so if you're on your way to learning it, my hat's off to you.


Well I appreciate it! I think there is a cost for learning Raise Rise: I'm not learning a whole lot of other moves in the process.


That's exactly right. There are much better investments of practice time... unless one of your top priorities is to impress magicians with a Ray Kosby move.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Leonard Hevia » September 12th, 2015, 5:52 pm

Years ago I worked on Kosby's rise for about a whole day and decided that no amount of work was going to perfect it. I've comfortably settled into the Robinson pinky rise I learned from the Chief Genii's books. It's perhaps the finest no gaff impromptu card rise that I have ever encountered. I was never a fan of the plunger methods. The only plunger I like is the one sitting in my bathroom.

I never liked the suggested counterclockwise circular motion in order to hide the pinky movement. I pretend to wrap a piece of thread around the deck and gently tug the imaginary string from above with my other hand. This pantomime makes the deck wiggle a bit from left to right, enough to cover the pinky motion.

Anyone who hasn't learned this wonderful pinky rise can do so from this great instructional DVD by Richard Sanders:

http://www.rnt2.com/uprising-by-richard-sanders.html

Jon Racherbaumer once wrote here on the Forum that he used this pinky rise as an alternative to the Devano Deck in a strolling gig. He enjoyed how it threw off those spectators who thought he was using a DD.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 12th, 2015, 6:01 pm

JHostler wrote:That's exactly right. There are much better investments of practice time... unless one of your top priorities is to impress magicians with a Ray Kosby move.


Not trying to impress magicians. Would be great, but I just want to utilize it. It looks really fun to do.

As far as better investments of time, what do you suggest?

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Leonard Hevia » September 12th, 2015, 6:23 pm

Mr Hurley wrote: As far as better investments of time, what do you suggest?


Card magic? The basics:

1. False Cuts and Shuffles
2. Top Palm-Vernon's Topping the Deck.
3. Top Change
4. The Pass--favorites: the Dingle/Swain Riffle, Dribble and Spread, and the Elias Jiggle. Hoffman's description of the Classic Pass in Modern Magic holds up well.
5. Elmsley, Hamman and Jordan Counts--to start.
7. Double Turnover
8. Basic Culling--I like Simon Lovell's Bucket Cull.
9. Side Steal/Color Change
10. Basic fanning techniques.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Brad Henderson » September 12th, 2015, 6:30 pm

hours and hours spent on one move that allows you to perform a single effect versus hours and hours spent on a move that allows you to perform hundreds of effects.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby erdnasephile » September 12th, 2015, 7:44 pm

Mr Hurley wrote:
JHostler wrote:That's exactly right. There are much better investments of practice time... unless one of your top priorities is to impress magicians with a Ray Kosby move.


Not trying to impress magicians. Would be great, but I just want to utilize it. It looks really fun to do.

As far as better investments of time, what do you suggest?


Working through the Card College series of books will repay your investment in time a thousand-fold.

However, it's your hobby--you should feel free to learn what excites you. My one bit of advice would be to learn your sleights in the context of routines you wish to perform. Learning disembodied sleights can lead to bad habits and tells. How you get in and out of a sleight is as important as the sleight itself.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby JHostler » September 12th, 2015, 9:05 pm

Mr Hurley wrote:
JHostler wrote:That's exactly right. There are much better investments of practice time... unless one of your top priorities is to impress magicians with a Ray Kosby move.


Not trying to impress magicians. Would be great, but I just want to utilize it. It looks really fun to do.

As far as better investments of time, what do you suggest?


I'd spend my time learning (amongst many other things) half of Derek Dingle's Complete Works before even thinking of tackling RR. (I'm assuming you're not a beginner here...) Dingle's "Bounce Change," for example, is a bit like RR... knacky, ultra-visual, and not many folks do it. But you can master the thing in a day.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Larry Horowitz » September 12th, 2015, 9:29 pm

I have been doing Magic for 49 years. There is much I know and much I do not.

There is no question that certain areas of study will provide more practical benefit then Raise Rise.

That said I have been working on a Fred Kaps coin routine for 7 years. To date I have only performed it twice. ( It's still not ready).

This is the direct quote from the manuscript;

" It might almost be easier to do it by real magic."

I have persevered, because the work brings me pleasure. If your attitude is the same, continue. But one difficult sleight does not make you a magician. Seek that which will serve to advance your skills today.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 13th, 2015, 12:15 am

As we all know too well, we are obsessed.
At the moment Mr. Hurley's obsession is "Raise Rise." He is entitled to spend his time and energy in the way which interests him the most!
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Chris Aguilar » September 13th, 2015, 12:18 am

Mr Hurley wrote: Would be great, but I just want to utilize it. It looks really fun to do.

As far as better investments of time, what do you suggest?

Chris Kenner's "Shifty" looks very nice (same plot) and (while I still wouldn't call it "easy"), it's not half the knuckle-buster of "Raise Rise". This is a completely different, simplified method than the very difficult version taught in his book "Totally Out of Control".

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 13th, 2015, 12:47 am

"Shifty" is great, and MUCH easier than "Raise Rise."
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 13th, 2015, 2:14 am

erdnasephile wrote:
Working through the Card College series of books will repay your investment in time a thousand-fold.

However, it's your hobby--you should feel free to learn what excites you. My one bit of advice would be to learn your sleights in the context of routines you wish to perform. Learning disembodied sleights can lead to bad habits and tells. How you get in and out of a sleight is as important as the sleight itself.


Amazon has a pretty good deal for all 5 books. I'll start with the first one and go from there.

As far as the 'disembodied sleights', do you mean to learn the ins and outs of a particular move that you can transition into just in case you get into a jam?
And couldn't patter join together a group of disembodied sleights?
Or am I missing the point?

JHostler wrote:
I'd spend my time learning (amongst many other things) half of Derek Dingle's Complete Works before even thinking of tackling RR. (I'm assuming you're not a beginner here...) Dingle's "Bounce Change," for example, is a bit like RR... knacky, ultra-visual, and not many folks do it. But you can master the thing in a day.


Im a beginner. My kids got me into magic last year and I have had my head mostly wrapped in Tenyo and reading about performing, presentation, and scripting. Starting to branch out into card magic and anything that can be played from the pockets.

I will look up Derek Dingles Complete Works and see what I can find! Thank you

Chris Aguilar wrote:Chris Kenner's "Shifty" looks very nice (same plot) and (while I still wouldn't call it "easy"), it's not half the knuckle-buster of "Raise Rise". This is a completely different, simplified method than the very difficult version taught in his book "Totally Out of Control".


That's excellent! I feel a bit like a goober because I'm on Theory11 all the time, I have never seen that before!

Looks like I'm going to get 'Shifty'.

Larry Horowitz wrote:I have been doing Magic for 49 years. There is much I know and much I do not.

There is no question that certain areas of study will provide more practical benefit then Raise Rise.

That said I have been working on a Fred Kaps coin routine for 7 years. To date I have only performed it twice. ( It's still not ready).

This is the direct quote from the manuscript;

" It might almost be easier to do it by real magic."

I have persevered, because the work brings me pleasure. If your attitude is the same, continue. But one difficult sleight does not make you a magician. Seek that which will serve to advance your skills today.


I completely agree that one hard sleight won't grant me magician status. Character, scripting, patter, mannerisms; the whole gambit (and probably several other things I have left out), make up a larger percentage of the whole picture.
I do intend to learn other easier things as this goes along, with many thanks of the voices of experience here.

But yes, the drive is there. 'Raise Rise' is too neat for me to pass up, both on how it looks and its difficulty. I'm drawn to the difficult stuff.

But the Fred Kaps routine you've been working on; hats off to you for sticking with it for 7 years. That's great!
I'd love to see it!

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Royce Kirbow » September 13th, 2015, 2:57 am

Brad,

Do you have a reference for the Visible Rising Card in Trapdoor please?

Thanks.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Brad Henderson » September 13th, 2015, 11:02 am

I have a file of loose issues so could not find it easily but I BELIEVE the title was Upwardly Mobile.

Literally that name popped into my head just now. Could be completely wrong, but I do think that was it.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby performer » September 13th, 2015, 12:04 pm

I can do difficult stuff but I am drawn to the easier stuff if it achieves the same objective just as effectively. It is called common sense.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 13th, 2015, 1:24 pm

performer wrote:I can do difficult stuff but I am drawn to the easier stuff if it achieves the same objective just as effectively. It is called common sense.


If the easier stuff works better for you, then go for it.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby performer » September 13th, 2015, 1:30 pm

Indeed. I have always said that it is foolish to be skillful beyond the bounds of necessity.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 13th, 2015, 1:52 pm

performer wrote:Indeed. I have always said that it is foolish to be skillful beyond the bounds of necessity.


Thats fine, stick along with your 'path of least resistance'. I'm going to go about magic differently.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 13th, 2015, 2:03 pm

Mark's point of view is that of a professional who knows exactly what he needs to do to meet his goal. The repertoires of some very famous professional close-up magicians consisted of about half a dozen tricks. When you are performing for constantly changing lay audiences, you can have a small repertoire.

Amateur magicians, on the other hand, tend to have larger repertoires because their goals are entirely different.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby performer » September 13th, 2015, 2:29 pm

I have a very large repertoire in actual fact. And I am also very technically skilled. However I have always known since I was a non professional of 16 years old that it was a bloody stupid policy to be skillful just for the sake of it. Doing so is the route to being a terrible performer.

I learned this very early on and I thank God every day I did otherwise I would have been as crap as everyone else.

Where did I learn it ? I must have mentioned the source about a million times or so. The presentation section of Expert Card Technique.

It is here that I learned that it is FAR more important to manipulate the PEOPLE than to manipulate the cards.

I would recommended Mr Hurley study this source if he wishes to become a great amateur instead of an incompetent one. The choice is his. No skin off my nose either way.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby JHostler » September 13th, 2015, 2:40 pm

Mr Hurley wrote:
performer wrote:Indeed. I have always said that it is foolish to be skillful beyond the bounds of necessity.


Thats fine, stick along with your 'path of least resistance'. I'm going to go about magic differently.


Let's say you've reached the point in a routine where it is necessary to deal ten random cards from the top of a shuffled deck. Why deal seconds? That's the point of what you disparagingly refer to as the "path of least resistance." It's a goal that no less than Vernon himself obsessed over: simplify, cut, and simplify more until an effect is achieved by the most direct means practical. This doesn't always mean easier... but it often does.

It's important to remember that the Kosby thing was developed by Ray in part because his hands and their tendencies were suited to it. This is the case with many esoteric sleights. It's often wiser to invest time in one's own "knacks" than to conform to someone else's less adaptable material.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 13th, 2015, 2:55 pm

JHostler wrote:
Mr Hurley wrote:
performer wrote:Indeed. I have always said that it is foolish to be skillful beyond the bounds of necessity.


Thats fine, stick along with your 'path of least resistance'. I'm going to go about magic differently.


Let's say you've reached the point in a routine where it is necessary to deal ten random cards from the top of a shuffled deck. Why deal seconds? That's the point of what you disparagingly refer to as the "path of least resistance." It's a goal that no less than Vernon himself obsessed over: simplify, cut, and simplify more until an effect is achieved by the most direct means practical. This doesn't always mean easier... but it often does.

It's important to remember that the Kosby thing was developed by Ray in part because his hands and their tendencies were suited to it. This is the case with many esoteric sleights. It's often wiser to invest time in one's own "knacks" than to conform to someone else's less adaptable material.


Well crap. I was thinking of 'path of least resistance in electrical terms. At least that's how I interpreted easier sleights. I didn't mean it disparagingly; just how I interpreted 'easier'. By no means to I rank the performance of 'Raise Rise' above the card work of others.

Truth is, I don't see why I should be afraid of a hard sleight. I should have been dead in Iraq; I don't see why I should be afraid of 'Raise Rise'.

You bring up a good point about knackier sleights. In the case of Ray Kosbys material. If the difficult material was meant more for Ray. What is the point of both DVD tutorials?

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby performer » September 13th, 2015, 3:08 pm

I don't know anything about Mr Kosby's trick and it may well be that his method is the only effective way of doing it. If so fair enough.

However I fear this would be a very bad policy for Mr Hurley to pursue as he will be learning to run before he can walk. And he is not alone in this. I swear it is something to do with the bloody internet and the too easy access to information. He shouldn't even know about this thing let alone be trying it.

You don't play a concerto before learning the scales. You should not be learning second deals when you hardly know what a key card is.

You need to build the foundations first before the whole bloody building collapses.

I know wherof I speak. I have been doing magic nearly sixty years. Our earnest student has been doing it just over a year. I suggest he listens to me. It may well do him some good.

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby JHostler » September 13th, 2015, 3:15 pm

Mr Hurley wrote: In the case of Ray Kosbys material. If the difficult material was meant more for Ray. What is the point of both DVD tutorials?


This is an industry where sales hinge largely in how something looks when demonstrated - often by the originator, and [today] almost always in perfectly situated, angle-free video settings. It's nearly impossible to dismiss the subconscious nudge that a cash outlay improves our odds of pulling off the miracle.
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 13th, 2015, 3:22 pm

performer wrote:I don't know anything about Mr Kosby's trick and it may well be that his method is the only effective way of doing it. If so fair enough.

However I fear this would be a very bad policy for Mr Hurley to pursue as he will be learning to run before he can walk. And he is not alone in this. I swear it is something to do with the bloody internet and the too easy access to information. He shouldn't even know about this thing let alone be trying it.

You don't play a concerto before learning the scales. You should not be learning second deals when you hardly know what a key card is.

You need to build the foundations first before the whole bloody building collapses.

I know wherof I speak. I have been doing magic nearly sixty years. Our earnest student has been doing it just over a year. I suggest he listens to me. It may well do him some good.


I know you mentioned Expert Card Technique.

Are there any other books that you would recommend?

Also, I just found out that there is a SAM and IBM ring about 25 minutes away. I know that something like that would be beneficial, but as a beginner with no books? (I had PDFs; laptop crashed. Getting nothing but books now).

You guys have been doling out some great recommendations. Should I acquire books first and practice a while before I consider this as an option?

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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby performer » September 13th, 2015, 3:51 pm

Get books first but they should be BEGINNER'S books. I STILL read beginner's books avidly. It is there that the best material often lies.

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Mr Hurley
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Mr Hurley » September 13th, 2015, 4:12 pm

performer wrote:Get books first but they should be BEGINNER'S books. I STILL read beginner's books avidly. It is there that the best material often lies.


All right, from what it looks like: Card College 1-5, Expert Card Technique, and Royal Road to Card Magic. Am I missing anything?

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Raise Rise. A question

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 13th, 2015, 4:47 pm

Mr Hurley wrote:... Am I missing anything?


...lots of time with audiences, performing

IMHO you'd be well served to explore some of the basics of magic in general before diving into a specialty. Otherwise you wind up being fooled by a dove steal and and reinventing lots of wheels. :)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time


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