The Genii Forum

Has anyone been using this? I'm thinking about buying one, but without seeing it in action, I'm a bit hesitant, given the $1800 price tag.

Aside from what Bob has put on his website, can anyone give me any more advantages that it has over other holdouts? Would the effects be significantly better / cleaner?

For those of you who have seen Bob use it, what do you think?

thanks,

-- Frank

Frank, you may to read the following thread in the Magic Cafe:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... orum=29&43

:D

It depends if you want to buy a product that is associated with Thomas Wayne. I think the device is overpriced for what it is. You can get a decent device for much less cost.

I have seen two people use it and what they did was nothing short of MAGIC.

It just depends on whether or not you want to put in the time and effort to learn to use it properly. There is probably no better made device, but again, it is like a difficult sleight that you must study, learn and practice AL LOT.

You can disagree with Thomas Wayne's opinions, but you cannot disagree with his workmanship, skill and knowledge... that he is involved should have nothing to do with your decision.

Do you want to do the magic it will provide you with?

Click HERE for the latest updates and arguments (it's mind-numbing.)

Not sure what more there is to know about this holdout. Geesh!

There have been no bad comments from anyone who bought it that I know of. Kohler himself says they've only had one person transfer the agreement and that was for a reason other than dissatisfaction with the product.

He also explained why they don't want to put up demos (what would a demo show anyway? The whole point is that you don't see the holdout or The Work!)

What more is there to know?? Buy one or don't! Get on with your life!

[By the way, there are a couple of excellent posts about people who don't post via their real name.]

And if you're a masochist, go read this thread HERE

or this one HERE

or this one HERE

or this one HERE

There are hundreds of posts basically saying the same thing over and over. Should keep you busy reading for hours.

Conclusion:

1) No, there is no demo and there won't BE a demo.

2) If you think it is too expensive, nobody cares. Don't buy it!

3) If you don't understand why it's more useful than a classic palm or a topit, nobody cares. Don't buy it.

4) If you have a coat hangar / rubber band gizmo that completely vanishes a canteloupe, great! Use that instead!

5) If you think the lease system is ridiculous, nobody cares. And for God's sake don't post any whining about it and don't lease it!

If you want to get one, great! Click HERE! The latest batch should be ready for shipment in December '05.

Thanks and have a nice day! :)

Originally posted by Steve Hook:

Conclusion:

1) No, there is no demo and there won't BE a demo.

2) If you think it is too expensive, nobody cares. Don't buy it!

3) If you don't understand why it's more useful than a classic palm or a topit, nobody cares. Don't buy it.

4) If you have a coat hangar / rubber band gizmo that completely vanishes a canteloupe, great! Use that instead!

5) If you think the lease system is ridiculous, nobody cares. And for God's sake don't post any whining about it and don't lease it!

If you want to get one, great! Click HERE! The latest batch should be ready for shipment in December '05.

From my perspective, nothing wrong with any of that. But I'll bet some people get their noses tweaked by one or all of those points.

John
And speaking of tweaking: http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/

Sounds like a bit of an over-reaction.

Originally posted by Lawrence Sullivan:
It depends if you want to buy a product that is associated with Thomas Wayne.

I think the device is overpriced for what it is.

You can get a decent device for much less cost.

Those are three separate issues.

Thomas is a craftsman whose works are sought after.

One person's opinion of price may not be the same as another's.

What is "decent" for one person and application may not be so useful for another person or application.

The real secret to HO work is to get one. Learn to use it well. Use it sparingly. Fool the qrap out of people and NEVER TELL ANYONE you have one.

About twenty years ago, maybe more, Bob Fitch was appearing in a show here in Philadelphia (I believe it was ANNIE) and he was performing miracles at the Philadelphia Magic Shop. No one had a clue as to how he could be doing what he was doing. Real sleight of hand magic. Flawless
and beautiful to watch. He was using his holdout and unique topit.As Mr.Biro advised,DON'T tell anyone you are using a holdout! People thought Mr. Fitch could walk on water if he chose to until they learned he was using a holdout. And even then he was so good they still thought he could walk on water.

The attachment for walking on water is pretty pricey, but well worth it.

Pete Biro - The attachment for walking on water is pretty pricey, but well worth it

Pete - Oh no! Now all the hoi polloi of magicdom will think that Cris Angel used a Kohler/Fitch holdout attachment to walk on water in the last "Vegas" show and we will have endless threads on when he will be selling it (shades of "the coin in can")!! :p

Willyum

ps - I thought Lance did a super job in his cameo on the same show. In fact, that Vegas show was a more entertaining magic show than the P&T effort.
waw

I hear... but I forgot the time and missed it. When we were at the Castle doing the Halloween special a Hummber Limo showed up to collect Criss to take him to the Vegas "set" (which was in Santa Monica, CA). I should have jumpted in and went with him.

True, Thomas Wayne does have some nice work. But it was not his work I was referring to in my initial post, as mentioned, but instead his business practice and general demeanor - which I thought I made quite clear when I used the words "associated with Thomas Wayne", rather than “produced by Thomas Wayne”, for example. I apologize if I was unclear.

The FK holdout is currently the best holdout on the market, bar none. But I stand by my opinion that it is overpriced for what it is. This doesn't mean it isn't the best. It just means you can buy other very good holdouts for a minute fraction of the price of the F/K system. I do understand the reasons for the high price (to keep it out of idly curious hands, etc...).

As far as the lease goes, if you are worried about it… it essentially boils down to a moral obligation on the part of the lease holder. The legal grounds are very shaky, despite what the Bob's would like you to think. It is unfortunate, but currently there is very little magicians can do to protect their inventions. Traditional means used by corporations worldwide will not work. However, the lease system is a step in the right direction, and I feel the moral obligation, coupled with a high price point, is a very strong force that will prevent people from exposing the device.

At the Collector's weekend Bob Kohler came up to me and showed me the set. I don't mean the way he had it set up -- he showed me the stuff you get in the box, and explained how all of it worked, because he wanted a neutral party to be able to explain what you get.

If someone is going to copy this system, he or she will have to lease it first, unless they have a photographic memory and a skill at estimating sizes of various and sundry things that few actually possess.

There is stuff going on in the Fitch-Kohler holdout system that only holdout workers will appreciate.

I've done a little work with a Miller holdout. I never got very good with it and was never comfortable with it. If I decided to work with a holdout, I'd get the one from the two Bobs.

But if you aren't a pro (either full or part time), and you don't have the money for it, don't get it. It's not for you.

It's a tool. Those of us who are cups and balls nuts would love to have a nice machine lathe and a spinning machine in our garage so when we needed a special cup, we could go out into the garage and make one. This would presuppose the machining and metalworking skills that are necessary to do this. We would have to invest around $20,000 in tooling to do this. That's about 10 times the price of a Fitch-Kohler holdout.

The people who have it won't say much. Thats great!! I hope to be fooled by it someday and not even know it.

You probably have...

Note: I have seen both Wayne and Fitch work with it... it is mind boggling what Fitch, in particular, does with it.

Originally posted by Sean Macfarlane:
The people who have it won't say much. Thats great!! I hope to be fooled by it someday and not even know it.

I've been using my FKHO for a bit over a year. There's a lot of cool stuff in the magic world, but I'd say that this "stealth machine" is one of the coolest things ever invented. 'nuff said. ;)

While I am here venting, did I mention that I had a hand in prototyping the Kohler/Fitch holdout? A little known fact. That's right, Bob stayed with me for 4 or 5 days while I designed prototypes that are, according to Bob, still used in the final product. In return for my countless hours of manufacturing and design ideas, it was agreed that I would receive a holdout, coin attachment, and DVDs that go with them. That was years ago, and so far I have received nothing. My credits have long since been removed from Bob's website, and I doubt I receive credits in the DVDs as promised. That's about $2200 worth of stuff that I got stiffed on, let alone the credits. Thanks for that, I am sure you justify it one way or another.
Todd Lassen

Jeeze,

Enough Todd.

You are really skilled, very clever, you have a beautiful wife and two amazing Daughters.

Enjoy your life.

Everyone has had relationships (business and personal) that went in another direction than that wished for.

Years ago I saw Kohler's orginal holdout made from a fishing weight, leather strap and bent wire with magnets. If you cleaned-up the details and refined the engineering you did a good thing, but all the great parts of "Bob & Bob's" design were there before anyone started helping them.

How about taking a deep breath and looking at all the great stuff that all of us have going for us: this Country (folks outside the USA are welcome to insert their own National Pride here...) this amazing Art we all love, our friends and families inside and outside the world of magic, the community here on the Forum, a Treasury Dept that allows talented artists like you, Johnson Products and Jamie Schoolcraft to make such beautiful tools from our Currency. The list is endless.

I know it is part of your nature to enjoy stirring it up, keeping on the other guy's case and creating the sense of folks who being either for you or against you. There are a lot of folks who like living their life the same way as you, and all of us have acted this way at one time or another. You are not alone, you are not targeted, you are not in danger, you are a part of it all.

So, thanks for all the great prototyping you did that went unthanked, unrecognized and unrewarded whether it was coins, holdouts or whatever. You made our magic better for it.

Now go work on those outstanding orders, you have customers waiting!

Happy Holidays

How do I know you Lucca? You sound like you were here for dinner last night, and my alzheimers is getting worse and worse. Are you my neighbor? And yes, I have plenty to be thankful for. And I am thankful for. My life is great.

You may read me a bit wrong, especially since you can't see me or hear my tone of voice when I am writing. I have a rather sarcastic tone when it comes to these issues, but it is usually with a smirk on my face. I'm not some abrasive ass that gets all consumed by this crap, and I'm not living with any huge chips on my shoulder. But since I was already here, ha, and I happened to read another sore spot....listen, my life didn't just take another direction that I didn't like, 2200 bucks did. That's a little more than most would just forget about because their life was so blissed out. But I get your point, I'll go meditate for a bit. Hopefully I won't run into Bob during one of his out of body experiences, or meet up with any of his swamis floating around the room. Hehe.
Todd Lassen

Todd,

I must confess that I did not have dinner at your house last night, but I did sneak into your kitchen at 3 am and drink milk (2%) right out of the container.

I am glad that you shared about your smirk and agreed about the stirring it up bit.

Yes, 2200 clams is a lot, but you are one of the few gifted ones that can make his own shells and sell them for more clams.

It ain't the money, it's the feeling of being betrayed. We get it, even in Vegas.

Finally 3 postings in a row showing human beings behind and a sense of humour..
Keep it up..loved the last 3 post...

Ups...I have to edit this... post=posts (typo)

I had a nice face to face with Todd a few years ago...I neglected to tell him who I was. I figured if he made coins he may make those Chinese Fighting Stars and I'd catch a quad tipped in in the back of the head if my identity was known.
Steve V

Originally posted by Steve V':
..... I figured if he made coins he may make those Chinese Fighting Stars and I'd catch a quad tipped in in the back ....

Don't worry, I'm in line before you :D

I know those *Fighting Stars*, anybody knowing what they are called in 'english/american' translation -not in chinese please. ;)

Originally posted by Werner G. Seitz:

I know those *Fighting Stars*, anybody knowing what they are called in 'english/american' translation -not in chinese please.

Shuriken

Originally posted by Lucca Pacholi:
Years ago I saw Kohler's orginal holdout made from a fishing weight, leather strap and bent wire with magnets. If you cleaned-up the details and refined the engineering you did a good thing, but all the great parts of "Bob & Bob's" design were there before anyone started helping them.

I think it would be more accurate to say that SOME of the "great parts" were there. The basic idea of a holdout is good. The improvements (which I haven't seen, but I've seen Fitch's work while using it) are also great.

Bill,

When I wrote "the great parts" it was, and is only my opinion.

And may I respectfully submit it remains my opinion, even now.

I bought the Miller Holdout from Tannens years ago. Took lessons from H.S (not writing his whole name, 'cause most folks don't know he uses one, and he uses it well!)

Saw Fitch fool everyone (myself included) at the NY Symposium sometime in the Paleolithic Peroid. He showed me his additions but did not show me the goodie to vanish the stack of coins.

Met Kohler when he moved out West, saw his work early on, and watched many of the developments of his holdout design grow and mature.

I was a full-retail buyer of one of the first batch of F-K holdouts (nice if you pronounce that out loud) and I was shown what T. Wayne, T. Lassen and others had added.

The F-K is great, but I still stand by my original opinion- everything you needed to kick-a*s was there with the flat weights and bent wire long before the non disclosure agreements and black leather zip cases.

Now quit staring at my right sleeve!

All well and good, but tell me o chef of the future, can it core a apple?

Shuriken is Japanese.

I fooled Vernon with the old Jack Miller holdout made from fishing line, weight and a clothes pin.

However, Fitch fooled me badly with his coin work using his H.O.

Jonathan,

Yes

You can core an apple, make the core reappear back in the apple, make the core vanish, change, or do any and all with the apple itself.

How do you like them apples?

(Forgot to mention I have gathered Keplinger "thieves", Michel's Invisible Hand, A James Riser set up, and many others - I love playing with this stuff.)

Originally posted by Bill Mullins:
Shuriken

THANKS ! :)

Can it make a string of poloponies Disappear?

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
Shuriken is Japanese.

So were the Ninjas who taught the Manhunter how to throw them, in Detective Comics in the 1970's (which is where I learned all the Ninja stuff anyone would ever need to know . . .)

Lucca, you still never told me how you know me (or about me). And I don't really think I agree with you on the stirring stuff up part. I don't really like stirring stuff up, standing up for oneself is not like stirring the pot just for grins. In this case, I feel an injustice has been done and maybe it shouldn't just fall in the cracks quite yet. (There is even a small chance that the other half of the american people will find out what this current administration has done to our country. Ha.) Like some have pointed out here, all the little pieces from here and there help them put together a larger picture. Judging by the response I have gotten to my recent postings, I think I have done the right thing. No regrets in the karma dept.
Todd Lassen

A little perspective on the price:in 1902, S. W. Erdnase wrote that a Kepplinger-style hold-out could cost "from seventy-five dollars to several hundred dollars." [Page 2 of The Book]

1800 of today's dollars is close to the low end of that figure; a dollar in 1902 was an ounce of silver, and twenty dollars was an ounce of gold.

According to the Inflation Calculator:
(http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi)
What cost $100 in 1902 would" cost $2215.56 in 2005"

Originally posted by Todd Lassen:
(There is even a small chance that the other half of the american people will find out what this current administration has done to our country. Ha.)

Okay, that's two political remarks in two days. I'd like to appeal to the generosity of everyone here to please leave that sort of thing elsewhere. I'm sure we all have strong opinions one way or the other, and no one's preferred "side" has clean hands anyway. Can we leave it at that?

And while I'm at it, I enjoyed our telephone chat the other day, Todd. One order coming your way!

John
http://www.escamoteurettes.com/blog/