What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

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What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 1st, 2014, 9:34 pm

Jean Pierre Vallarino's "Ultimate Wild Card"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnf5uF3q ... e=youtu.be

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 1st, 2014, 9:36 pm

So here are my thoughts: There are some really amazing transformations indeed. And I've always enjoyed his magic ... but:
How many times do the cards need to change before a layman gets the point? I believe four changes is sufficient. Sometimes more isn't better; it's just more.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 1st, 2014, 10:44 pm

I disagree with you, and so would the creator of the original routine, Johann Hofzinser, who was doing essentially this as one of the phases of "Everywhere and Nowhere" (I believe it might have been the third method as listed by Sharpe). He used double-ended cards rather than double-faced cards, and changed a whole row of cards one at a time.

But, in other tricks using double-faced cards, he invented what is known as "The Wild Card Switch" which is now often used in this "Wild Card" routines.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 1st, 2014, 10:51 pm

But in Hofzinser's time, attention spans were just a tad different.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 1st, 2014, 10:54 pm

I don't believe attention spans are a problem with a magical change happening every few seconds. If anything, Vallerino (whom I greatly enjoy watching) does it too quickly.

The real problem with a trick like this is one of real estate: how often do you have all that space on a table when working for laymen?
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby MManchester » November 1st, 2014, 11:28 pm

I could do without the sound of explosions at the reveal. I don't like the way some magic videos manipulate our reaction to an effect. It's subtle, but influences our perception in a way that spectators don't experience.

I enjoyed the routine but it's obviously repetitive. It would have been stronger if he could have changed the 9s into different cards which would give the impression that he has control over the outcome. Being limited to one type of transformation draws attention to the method. Spectators may question why he can only change the cards into Queens.

If I'm not mistaken, custom cards are expensive to produce because you have to order large quantities. Otherwise I would create more variety. It makes me think of the forthcoming poker book. Change the 9s into a perfect poker hand or something like that.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 1st, 2014, 11:50 pm

The definition of a "Wild Card" routine is that you have a single card that is more powerful, hence "wild," than the others and can convert them to duplicates of itself!

If you change the Nines into different cards, that's a different trick, and unless the "different" cards are selections, it's not a trick at all.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Smurf » November 2nd, 2014, 12:02 am

I really enjoyed this routine the first time I saw it - and on subsequent viewings. It isn't groundbreaking, but I was still interested in it enough to purchase it. I thought the music enhanced the performance, and you can use it if you want to (or not) so that is a plus. I think the use of mixing gimmicked and ungimmicked "new" cards helps clean it up a little.

I haven't performed it yet so I have no real world impressions yet.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby JHostler » November 2nd, 2014, 7:41 am

After the first few changes, all I could think was "OK - I get it. I get it."

Pretty, but too darned repetitive.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby PapaG » November 2nd, 2014, 9:11 am

Do you think that is a magician or layman's point of view?

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby JHostler » November 2nd, 2014, 9:20 am

PapaG wrote:Do you think that is a magician or layman's point of view?


Why would I bother making that statement from a magician's point of view?

Magicians tend to be more enamored with repetitive sequences than the folks they perform for. Why do the same trick eight times in rapid succession? That's a flaw inherent in these types of routines - one that can only be overcome with an extraordinary presentation.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby PapaG » November 2nd, 2014, 9:31 am

I never tire of hearing laymen say 'do that again!'.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby MManchester » November 2nd, 2014, 9:38 am

Magicians tend to be more enamored with repetitive sequences than the folks they perform for.


Exactly. In the situation as it's presented in the video, most laymen would nod politely but they're keeping their eye on that last card waiting for the routine to end.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Waterman » November 2nd, 2014, 3:23 pm

It's probably safe to say that very few laypeople ever see any variation of Wild Card...or any of the thousands of card effects we share with each other as magicians. It's pointless to assume the position of a non-magician's perception of a card trick...especially given the fact that many laypeople still get a charge out of performing the 21 card trick when sharing their skills with a magician.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 2nd, 2014, 3:48 pm

Waterman wrote:It's pointless to assume the position of a non-magician's perception of a card trick...

I strongly disagree. It should be among the top considerations if one performs magic, especially for money, for the laity.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Brad Jeffers » November 2nd, 2014, 4:50 pm

JHostler wrote: Why do the same trick eight times in rapid succession?

If you think eight is to many, then you might prefer Eric Decamps' Jokers are Wild, which has only six transformations.

Richard Kaufman wrote:The definition of a "Wild Card" routine is that you have a single card that is more powerful, hence "wild," than the others and can convert them to duplicates of itself!

Exactly!

It makes you wonder why so many magicians use the title "Impromptu Wild Card" for routines that are not really "Wild Card" effects at all ...

Larry Jennings "Impromtu Wild Card" from his issue of Epilouge.

Derek Dingle "Impromptu Wild Card" from The Complete Works of Derek Dingle.

Eric Decamps "Impromtu Wild Card" as seen HERE.

Although all are excellent effects, a true "Wild Card" routine cannot be done impromptu.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 2nd, 2014, 5:34 pm

It's difficult to keep ones actions directed at the magic and avoid "dance" or doing moves attempting to prove things that the audience has not considered. They know playing cards have two sides - a face and a back.

I took the other approach and had a card change the face and back of another card for four changes - next to no apparent extra action - as an exercise and to pick up on something Frank Garcia mentioned long ago about doing the changes twice using cards that stick together.

The "contagion/clone" notion defining wildcard is limiting. Let's say you have a ten of diamonds and four other cards - then use the ten to change the other four into the rest of a royal flush in diamonds.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby JHostler » November 2nd, 2014, 6:14 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:
JHostler wrote: Why do the same trick eight times in rapid succession?


If you think eight is to many, then you might prefer Eric Decamps' Jokers are Wild, which has only six transformations.


Lacking the proper motivation, six is still too many. Why? What's the point? To prove that it can be done more than once? Yes, yes.. Peter Samelson... a shining exception that proves the rule.

As I admitted, Vallarino's variation on the theme looks nice. But the routine is clearly designed for magicians. All that flipping and turning would do nothing but raise suspicions among layfolk. I wonder what Dai would think...
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 2nd, 2014, 7:13 pm

I don't recall ever hearing that Dai Vernon ever performed "Wild Card."
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby MManchester » November 2nd, 2014, 7:53 pm

I think JHostler was referring to the lack of naturalness in the presentation, not that the specific routine was performed by Vernon.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby erdnasephile » November 2nd, 2014, 8:04 pm

I think for a repetitive routine (Wild Card/Oil and Water/ACR) to be most effective, the various changes/separations/rises should build in apparent difficulty or visual nature.

I also agree that all too frequently, these types of routines are often way too long for my taste.

In addition, the thing I've struggled with Wild Card is that in it's traditional form, the routine really doesn't have much of a climax. Eric DeCamps' version is a prominent exception, as is Peter Samuelson's version (because it has a presentational climax that makes sense).

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Brad Henderson » November 2nd, 2014, 8:18 pm

PapaG wrote:I never tire of hearing laymen say 'do that again!'.


Then you might want to avoid tricks where you force them to watch something until they tire of it.

based on responses in this thread, that's seems - for many - to be the case here.

personally I'd rather leave them wanting more, wanting to come back and share the experience with others they bring with them, instead of numbing them to the magic through repetition.

To each their own.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Brad Henderson » November 2nd, 2014, 8:33 pm

in watching this I can't help but feel that beginning with one wild card and 9 duplicate cards diminishes the impact of the effect. We have tipped the ending and have adiminished the surprise of seeing so many of the same cards (an unusual site to most people) from the outset.

mAgic is performing extraordinary things in ordinary contexts. Starting with 8 or 9 duplicate cards is not ordinary.

Why not remove 9 black spot cards from the pack (or have them out already). Changing them to all to a single red card would be far more visually stunning.

Also, I don't like that I lose track of the actual wild card in his handling. All of those cards take on the ability to change cards. ok I guess. But to me I think I like the idea of having that original different card handled more carefully so all the changes are "seeded" from that one.

This leads me to ponder that card having a different colored back. This serves to isolate it from the beginning. Your kicker is that at the end you turn over all of the newly changed cards to reveal thir backs have changed. Would not do/reveal this as part of the individual changes. Keep focus on the faces. Hit them at the end with that logical punch/kicker.

methodologically, probably some great possibilities with odd backed colored cards in the alleged normal packet.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby JHostler » November 2nd, 2014, 8:47 pm

MManchester wrote:I think JHostler was referring to the lack of naturalness in the presentation, not that the specific routine was performed by Vernon.


Bingo.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 2nd, 2014, 10:48 pm

@Brad, my handling gets both to change. Saving the display of the backs as changed for an encore is intreaging.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Brad Jeffers » November 3rd, 2014, 1:21 am

Compare and contrast this offering from Drummond Money-Coutts,
"Magician Unto the World's Elite" ...




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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 3rd, 2014, 1:58 am

Still a couple too many cards for my taste, but I really like the blow-off at the end (though I'd prefer it if he passed the packet through his hands once instead of twice), so that makes it better.

(But what I really want to know is why I cannot get the Youtube URL of the one I posted to embed the video! When I try, it doesn't work even though I'm pretty sure it is done properly--just like everyone else's. Is there some secret being withheld from me?)

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Brad Jeffers » November 3rd, 2014, 2:19 am

Here you go Dustin ...



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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Q. Kumber » November 3rd, 2014, 6:25 am

Surprisingly no one has mentioned Tommy Wonder's 'Tamed Card'. For my money the best and most commercial Wild Card routine out there. Strong presentation, great plot, theatrically sound, audience involvement, emotionally intriguing, needs no table and a compelling reason to get through the changes without farting about.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 3rd, 2014, 9:38 am

Q. Kumber wrote:Surprisingly ...


Or the original, or Gypsy Curse, or Tom Dobrowski's "In the Hands" or Darwin Ortiz's version ... or anyone playing with the Protean Pack for a full deck no table wildcard with repeats...

or is it not surprising anymore?

If I can dig up a video of my four card changes version or perhaps Matt has a video of his "eraser" routine... ??
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Tom Dobrowolski » November 3rd, 2014, 10:23 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Q. Kumber wrote:Surprisingly ...


Or the original, or Gypsy Curse, or Tom Dobrowski's "In the Hands" or Darwin Ortiz's version ... or anyone playing with the Protean Pack for a full deck no table wildcard with repeats...

or is it not surprising anymore?

If I can dig up a video of my four card changes version or perhaps Matt has a video of his "eraser" routine... ??



Here's a clip from a few years ago. Changed a bit since then but still about the same as here.



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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 3rd, 2014, 12:50 pm

Hofzinser's original routine used a row of different cards removed from the deck and changed all of them to the same card (the climax for "Everywhere and Nowwhere" by literally making the card everywhere).
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Chris Aguilar » November 3rd, 2014, 1:14 pm

All that fussy flipping/reflipping the cards seems detrimental to the clarity of the final effect. Can't say I enjoyed Vallarino's take on this very much.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 3rd, 2014, 1:19 pm

Chris Aguilar wrote:All that fussy flipping/reflipping the cards seems detrimental to the clarity of the final effect. Can't say I enjoyed Vallarino's take on this very much.


I can see that stuff done in character. Perhaps portraying compulsive neatness with an obsessive process. The silent script being that two turns, once through the hand then flip over each card before setting on the table - then spread to display - first the one on the left then the right hand card. This as if believed necessary to make the magic work and avoid some unspoken bad consequences.

Not sure folks are trying to portray such a character but if you're doing it you may as well be consistent and play off the pattern.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Chas Nigh » November 3rd, 2014, 1:42 pm

After reading these posts, I would say that maybe Bruce Cervon had the right idea. Take a look at his version.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 3rd, 2014, 2:09 pm

What magician can we say with little doubt knew a great routine for laymen? Mike Skinner. A working pro for many decades. You'll find his handling of Peter Samelson's "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" on the second DVD in The Skinner Tapes. His comment: the best way to use a double-faced card in Wild Card is simply to do a Double Turnover.
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Chas Nigh » November 3rd, 2014, 2:26 pm

The Cervon routine also uses a basic double turnover. and moves along rather quickly. Takes out the boring aspect.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 3rd, 2014, 2:36 pm

Chas Nigh wrote:The Cervon routine also uses a basic double turnover. and moves along rather quickly. Takes out the boring aspect.


Any thoughts on Darwin Ortiz's version? Tom's as posted?
How about basic construction - say doing a few single changes then two at a time and finishing off with three or four at a go? How about leaving one on the table as if forgotten and doing that as an encore?

Magic tricks are not supposed to suffer from ad nauseum "because you can".
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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Tom Dobrowolski » November 3rd, 2014, 3:10 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Chas Nigh wrote:The Cervon routine also uses a basic double turnover. and moves along rather quickly. Takes out the boring aspect.


Any thoughts on Darwin Ortiz's version? Tom's as posted?
How about basic construction - say doing a few single changes then two at a time and finishing off with three or four at a go? How about leaving one on the table as if forgotten and doing that as an encore?

Magic tricks are not supposed to suffer from ad nauseum "because you can".


Be kind please... :D

A few comments, years ago when I first came up with my handling I used 8 cards because that's what was in the wild card set. Early on I performed it for a group that consisted of Paul Harris, Earl Nelson, Dave Solomon and Paul Wilson and the comment from Paul Harris was o.k. I get it you change the cards. It's too long. I cut it down to six cards redid a few of the changes and did the last 2 as one change. It frankly played much better. The last part using the Olram is so I can instantly reset. Made it more practical for me when I was regularly doing walk around. I finish the routine just put the cards in my pocket and they're ready to go.

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Re: What Say You? JP Vallarino's Wild Card

Postby Bob Farmer » November 3rd, 2014, 3:29 pm

This is a great routine. I tried to track it down for purchase without success. If you like this routine, you might like Hans Trixer's version that was marketed by Ken Brooke.


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