CUPS EXPERTS

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Pete Biro
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pete Biro » September 18th, 2004, 12:38 pm

Chrome is hard looking, to me... nickle plate is a lot classier.

I have seen antique apparatus that was nickle plated, that needed re-plating, sent out to a CHROME PLATE shop (like a place that does bumpers and car stuff) and it came back looking CHEAP and flashy.

Just from my observations.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 18th, 2004, 1:35 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Chrome is hard looking, to me... nickle plate is a lot classier.
That's a great observation. Thanks Pete.

What are your feelings about silver?
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Pete Biro
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pete Biro » September 18th, 2004, 3:19 pm

I love silver, but you need to keep using Wright's Silver Creme.

The set of Silver Connie Haden cups I SOLD are a set I would give plenty to get back.

But Busby is impossible to deal with.
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » October 27th, 2004, 9:01 am

OK. I know I'm venturing onto well-explored territory (over-explored?) but I'd appreciate opinions on this. I'm going to get a new set of cups. What are the relative merits of silver, brass, and copper in terms of durability, care required, and lasting appearance. I'm willing to invest in silver if it's warranted. If I'm just as well off with copper or brass, I'd go that less expensive route instead. I've had a set of copper cups for years, and unfortunately, they look it!

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pepka » October 27th, 2004, 1:53 pm

Hey Andy, welcome to the forum. What kind of cups do you have now? And are they banged up or just tarnished? (patina) Some people, myself includedlove the antique copper look. I use Riser cups which are spun from copper and are beautiful. The Johnson cups are also very nice but they must constantly be polished. I don't care for tarnished brass, not very pretty. Brass also sounds incredible. I wish my Risers sounded that good. For a true expert opinion on selecting cups, look at Jim Riser's website under selecting a set of cups. www.jamesriser.com
Pepka

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » October 29th, 2004, 10:50 am

I'm not sure about the maker. I've had the cups for about 30-35 years, so they've had more than their share of wear. I decided to have the "reconditioned". A local metal craftsman is buffing off the old lacquer and cleaning the copper cups inside and out. The trial we did buffing a small section looked just terrific! It'll be like having a brand new set of cups!
I've got a set of brass El Duco cups that look pretty, but I've been disappointed with their design. The bottoms (tops?) are flat rather than concave so ball roll off too easily. What make this worse is the soft shoulder on the cups prevent them from stacking securely. The top cup is often slanted.
I'd thought about investing in the Sherwood cups, but it's tough to justify the expense when I'm mostly practicing for my own enjoyment and perform so rarely for others.

Frank Starsinic
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Frank Starsinic » October 29th, 2004, 11:06 am

How do the Sherwood coppers compare to Paul Fox coppers?

I know the load is slightly larger. What else?
Waht about Weight? Attic Space? Tip back move?

Thanks

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 1st, 2004, 6:00 am

I haven't had a chance to work with the Sherwoods. Based on the ads, I'd assume they are heavier than most cups (6+ oz. vs. ~4).

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 1st, 2004, 6:01 am

Does anyone know whether Slydini did a cups and balls routine? I haven't run across any references to one. If he did, is it published anywhere?

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 1st, 2004, 11:41 am

Slydini tended not to use things which looked like magic props when he worked. Some of the exceptions that I can think of were sponge balls and linking rings.
Though there is an Okito box idea of his in print, he never used anything like that when performing for laymen.
I have neither heard nor seen of him doing a cup and ball routine of any kind.
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 1st, 2004, 5:24 pm

Hey Richard...where did Slydini have something published with the Okito Box?

Mike

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 1st, 2004, 6:27 pm

Tony used to come into The House of Magic when he was in San Francisco. He spent a lot of time in SF, what with his association with Palmer Tilden, of Sterling Creations, and his friendships with Bill Whittington and Gene Matsuura, who was really about as close to Tony as anyone in the magic world. (In fact, Gene was writing a book with Tony in the last years of Tony's life. The "Annotated Slydini" with Gene's notes, recently published by L&L is a TINY bit of the voluminous notes that Gene accumulated over many years with Tony.) He even stayed with me once or twice! That was great, because Tony loved magic, and he would give me lessons whether I wanted them or not!

At any rate, I never saw him do a "Cups and Balls Routine", per se. But, I DO remember him doing the cups and balls for some kids in the shop. He used the Adams plastic set, and did a SWEET sequence, production, multiplication of the balls, (reminded me of the Scarne three-ball trick in "Stars of Magic"), penetrations, vanishes, he even did the cup-thru-cup penetration at the start! Think about that - the cups are all different colors... Typical of Tony, he finished by vanishing the stack of cups and the balls! I guess it helped that we had servantes on the back of every showcase, but still...

I can't imagine that Slydini didn't work on the Cups and Balls at some point in his life, but I never saw him perform it, or even allude to it. Perhaps Gene knows more. It would be interesting to know what Slydini thought of the trick, and why he never included it - certainly not for a lack of know-how. It doesn't seem to fit him in some ways, but then, he did the Linking Rings, a Silk Fountain, etc., so he certainly wasn't averse to the "standards"...

Best, PSC

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 1st, 2004, 7:56 pm

Slydini's Okito Box thing was published by Karl Fulves in Chronicles (I think).
Karl wrote that he would give Slydini certain props just to see what he would do with them--what the Slydini "Touch" would be.
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Dustin Stinett
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 1st, 2004, 8:52 pm

The Chronicles #31.

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 2nd, 2004, 7:47 am

Thanks so much for the memories of Slydini and the cups! I was able to meet him only once when I saw him perform in NY at a mini-convention on the same bill as David Roth. Both were memorable, and I was struck by their unfailing courtesy and generosity with those of us attending.

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Pete Biro
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pete Biro » November 2nd, 2004, 9:56 am

Nickle plate is just classier looking. Less like a chromed bumper on a low rider.

I was a consultant on the design of the Johnson Cups, but after using them I found them a little "hard" in the look/handling compared to the real Paul Fox cups.

Auke is a friend of mine but I don't like his cups either. I think it is the CNC type work that gives his and the JP cups that "hard" look/feel vs. spun cups.

I think copper with an "aged" patina is better than brass. But that is my opinion.

Sherwoods are wonderful but I don't want to damage mine... the Gazzo/Animals and the Risers are about at the top of the heap.

Porper's are wonderful, I work with him on various projects, but I don't like the feel of his cups, again it must be the fact that they are CNC cut.

It is just a personal thing.

Keep cuppin'
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Tabman
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Tabman » November 2nd, 2004, 12:38 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
...cups either. I think it is the CNC type work that gives his and the JP cups that "hard" look/feel vs. spun cups.
Interesting observation Pete!! Is it that magic is more an art than a science??? The computer controlled milling takes the hands out of it. What you need to do is to program some "hand" into the program sort of like the slight detuning of some "strings" on a digital piano to make it sound a little more like it was tuned by "ear!"

I guess until robots start performing then the need for hand made magic will be there.

Great observation and a subject worthy of more discussion.

-=tabman

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Pete Biro
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pete Biro » November 2nd, 2004, 1:34 pm

Taboo... may man... how's all goin' - I see your great chips on www.hocus-pocus.com
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Rob Signs
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Rob Signs » November 2nd, 2004, 4:44 pm

I see what you mean about the CNC vs. Hand Spun. I've got a set of VanDokkum standards and a set of Jumbo Risers. I love both of them. They definitely have a different feel to them (other than the size difference of course).

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend either cup. They both look and handle very well.

Earlier in this thread someone asked about Johnson cups in copper. I don't know about Johnson, but VanDokkum made a set of his cups in copper and said that once that set was sold, the next one would be very expensive because copper is alot harder to CNC than steel or brass. So that might be why you don't see the Johnson in copper.

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Bill Wells
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Bill Wells » November 3rd, 2004, 8:07 am

I mostly agree with Pete's observations regarding cups.

My cup closet runneth over but I always go back to my old favorite Paul Fox copper cups that I got from Danny Dew. I love the beautiful silver cups, the brass cups, etc., etc. but don't want to "bang" them up! I also feel the cups should not be the overwhelming thing in the routine. They are merely "carriers" for the mysterious things that happen to the balls. I don't want the audience distracted by beautiful silver cups or beautifully polished copper, brass, or nickel plated cups.

Having said all that, I still seem to want to get every new cups that comes on the market!!!
Bill Wells

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 3rd, 2004, 9:50 am

Thanks Richard and Dustin...damn, don't know how I missed that!

Mike

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 3rd, 2004, 10:36 am

Thanks again for the replies on my Slydini question. One follow up... what's behind the Connie Haden cups being referred to as "Slydini Cups?"

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Pete Biro
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pete Biro » November 3rd, 2004, 4:39 pm

Wish you hadn't reminded me of the Connie Haden cups... I swapped my set to... argh... Jeff Busby... double argh... :whack:
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 3rd, 2004, 6:36 pm

And Johnnie Ramsay used cardboard ice cream cups he painted.
:)
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby David Alexander » November 3rd, 2004, 6:47 pm

I agree completely with Bill Wells. The cups are not furniture, but simply staging for the mysterious things that happen to the little balls.

Like Bill, I have a set of Fox Cups made by Danny Dew, back at a time when they were $15. Two sets of Ross Bertram cups and I think I'm well-supplied.

Jim Riser took my old Dew cups and re-rounded them, too many drops on restauarant tile had knocked them out of round. He did a magnificient job rehabilitating them and was charitable in what he charged me.

I take what Pete says to heart because cups that aren't made with a human hand feel differently. He's right.

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » November 4th, 2004, 11:57 am

Pete, why were the Haden cups also called Slydini cups?

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Bill Wells
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Bill Wells » November 5th, 2004, 6:52 am

...and as I am sure David would probably agree, knowing Danny Dew made those cups gives them some really special Mojo!!!
Bill Wells

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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Dale Shrimpton » November 5th, 2004, 8:02 am

I have a set of Burtini cups.How do you guy's rate them against others?

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Pete Biro
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Pete Biro » November 5th, 2004, 9:54 am

Junk. Send to me and I'll trash them for you. ;)
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Re: CUPS EXPERTS

Postby Guest » March 4th, 2005, 11:10 am

Hi, my name is Jim, and I have an addiction. I am a cups and balls collector too.

I'm a bar magician who also does the cocktails style bar flair, so back in the mid 90's I started playing around with these vinyl coated short shakers or half mixing tins. They are perfect for what I do as they are balanced for spinning, rolling across the body, flipping of the bar and catching behind the head, bouncing off the floor, etc.

I started using one for the Fruit Cup routine out of Carneycopia, borrowed bill to lemon, made more sense than a coffee mug as I used it all the time to make drinks. Williamson's Wonders came out, two of these short tins stack perfect, I use rubber olives, a long handled bar spoon can be "trained" to do the Vernon or Williamson thumb spins, and the beer coolers that usually extend under the bar top make great places to simply set final loads, no going to pockets, it 's almost as good as lapping. And you produce that 3rd lemon and set it rolling toward the customers, you have all the time in the world to dip below the bar and switch for a second tin similar to the thing Mullica does in his egg bag routine and with one that holds a full drink under it on the bar.

If you can use them Barproducts.com has chrome tins with black vinyl covering a little of half the tin, which looks really good with the Ammar wands, the piece of aluminum rod covered with electrical shrink tubing, our little secret.

I know that was a long explanation of why I use them 5 nights a week instead of having to put down a protective close up mat, pulling nice shiny chrome or brass cups out of well it looks like a tube sock with a drawstring and have to explain my girlfriend knitted little sweaters for my balls......


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