Sachs and Sack's

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Bill Mullins
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Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill Mullins » August 12th, 2013, 8:56 pm

Elsewhere I got into a discussion of the Sachs/Sack's dice routine and why it exists with two similar names, and came up with the following. Thought it might be worth posting here.

Edwin Sachs wrote up his routine "Changing Dice" in Sleight of Hand (1877, p. 81). (This book was a compilation of material that Sachs had serially published in Exchange & Mart magazine in England, so the routine likely appeared there first). This is the first place I know that the paddle move was applied to dice for a magic trick.

Seventy-one years later, Bruce Elliot published (the much-improved) "Sack's Spotted Sorcery" in Phoenix #152, p. 615 and then later again in his book Classic Secrets of Magic p. 36 as "Dr. Sack's Dice". This is a much better routine that expands on the Sachs original, and most modern magicians who do a version of the dice routine incorporate the later improvements.

Since Elliot's write-up in Phoenix isn't credited to anyone, I've always assumed that he (Elliot) took the Sachs routine and reworked it, and renamed it "Sack's" in homage to the 19th century magician. But the index in the bound volume of Phoenix gives credit to "Dr. Theodore Sack", and in Phoenix #188, Elliot describes a visit from "Dr. Sack" and his wife, but with no further identifying details.

In Hugard's Magic Monthly, Martin Gardner did the first version of his "Encyclopedia of Impromptu Magic" as a series of topical articles. The July 1952 installment covers dice, and Gardner refers to the routine as being that of "Dr. Theodore Sack, of Boston".

Sack gets a few mentions in other magic magazines of the era. He was a member of the Boston SAM assembly, and had a copper/silver routine in Bruce Elliot's book The Best in Magic. His trick "Dr. Sack's Cent" is in Phoenix #229. A review of Sol Stone's video Radical Dice mentions that Stone discussed meeting Dr. Sack in the 1940s. A little genealogical research shows that Theodore Sack was a real doctor who went to Brown, and then Harvard Med School. He was involved in cancer research in the late 1940s, and later was in the Army and served in the Korean War. He died Feb 4, 1967.

So Sachs and Sack are both real people who did dice routines based on the paddle move, and it is only a coincidence that their names are so similar.

The Win 1975 issue of Pallbearer's Review has Stewart Judah's take on the routine, with contributions from Paul Swinford, in "Sack/Judah Dice". Jack Young has a version in the Dec 1982 Magic Circular. David Regal has a one-die version ("Spot Remover") in Genii, Jul 1997. See also work and contributions in videos from Steve Draun (Draun on Dice), Bob Sheets (It's the Rules), James Lewis (Dr. Sack's Amazing Dice), Steve Dobson & Reed McClintock (Ivory Connection), and Daryl (Fooler Doolers #3). Tim Trono discussed the identity issue in the Dec 2002 Genii, and recognized that there were two different guys.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 12th, 2013, 9:05 pm

A great post Bill. There is another great dice routine in Lewis Ganson's Routined Manipulation Part One. It's called Harold Beaumont's Dice Routine.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bob Farmer » August 13th, 2013, 7:50 am

Thank you Bill, that's a lot of spade work.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill McFadden » August 13th, 2013, 3:53 pm

Now that's a keeper! Thanks, Bill, for your diligent research. Like I keep sayin' - you're the greatest!

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby mrgoat » August 13th, 2013, 5:01 pm

I've seen Jim Lewis and Larry Horowitz both do this trick. I thought it sounded awful when I read it, seeing them both do it made me realise how good it is.

Still not learnt it because I can't be arsed to carry round two dice with me, meh.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill Mullins » August 13th, 2013, 5:25 pm

You should see Bob Sheets do it. While his video is good, there's nothing like seeing him in person.

If Capt Queeg could carry around a couple of ball bearings, you can do two dice.

I'm glad some of you find the post useful. Stuff like this shows how valuable the AskAlexander database is, for anyone who is interested in the history of an effect. What Bill Kalush and his crew have done is nothing short of amazing.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Joe Pecore » August 13th, 2013, 5:26 pm

There is a picture of a Theodore Sack (with about 100 other members SAM #9 Boston) in the Vol. 10 No. 7 (Mar 1946) Genii (pg 19)
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill Mullins » August 13th, 2013, 5:32 pm

I found a short newspaper article about him, that described how people were always confusing him with Thomas Dewey. It included a picture of him, and he was about halfway between Dewey and Ernie Kovacs, to my eye.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Daniel Z » August 13th, 2013, 7:19 pm

I can't resist seconding (the always astute) Mr. Mullin's comment about Bob Sheets. I learned the routine as a kid but never new what a wonderful piece of magic it could be until I saw Bob do it (as we walked down the street). Amazing and very, very funny.
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Jim Maloney » August 13th, 2013, 7:58 pm

This, by the way, goes back further than Sachs. The concept can be found in The Secret Out, from 1859, as 'A way to end a game of Backgammon' (or some similar title, I'm going from memory here).
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill Mullins » August 13th, 2013, 11:21 pm

Jim Maloney wrote:This, by the way, goes back further than Sachs. The concept can be found in The Secret Out, from 1859, as 'A way to end a game of Backgammon' (or some similar title, I'm going from memory here).


Well, I learn something every day. Link (see pp. 119 - 121)

For a 150 year old book, The Secret Out was danged hard to find online.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 14th, 2013, 12:42 am

I've been doing Sack's dice routine since the age of 10. It's a magnificent trick. Mike Skinner used to do it with jumbo dice!
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Edwin Corrie » August 14th, 2013, 4:04 am

Another early reference is "Half Hours of Scientific Amusement" (1890), which was a translation/compilation of material by Gaston Tissandier:

http://archive.org/details/halfhoursscient00fritgoog
See page 104 ff.

I haven't been able to find the exact reference in Tissandier, but it must have been in the 1880s. There's a nice overview of books by Tissandier and others at http://micromagie.com/biblio/bibliographie.html (a great site, though I'd love to know who's behind it).

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Jim Maloney » August 14th, 2013, 1:41 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Jim Maloney wrote:This, by the way, goes back further than Sachs. The concept can be found in The Secret Out, from 1859, as 'A way to end a game of Backgammon' (or some similar title, I'm going from memory here).


Well, I learn something every day. Link (see pp. 119 - 121)

For a 150 year old book, The Secret Out was danged hard to find online.


Thanks for finding that PDF!

Also note that the American and British versions of the book have some significant differences, though I think this item is in both of them. I have both at home -- I'll double check later tonight, if I remember.

And finally, I believe that much of the material in The Secret Out was taken from a French book. I have not confirmed this though as 1. I don't have the book it is supposedly based on and 2. I don't speak French.
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Curtis Kam » August 14th, 2013, 3:45 pm

Thanks to everyone for the research, this has been, well, diverting. From work, as usual. But I found the inclusion of the full performance script in The Secret Out to be fascinating.

Equally interesting was the fact that the "top and bottom numbers add up to 14" factoid was the basis for the presentation as early as "A Half Hour's...." I have heard it said that Dr. Sack was the one that added this presentational angle to the trick, and that this was what made his routine so seminal. I think that statement needs to be refined--was Dr. Sack the first to have the spots change while staying true to the "Rule"?

Oh, BTW, Richard, I contributed an updated version of this routine to Genii back when David Acer was running Magicana. He emailed (Stephen Minch) that he had planned to run it. If he did, I didn't see it, and if he didn't, and Genii won't, I'd like to publish it myself. What's the plan, boss?

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill Mullins » June 19th, 2015, 9:15 pm

Curtis -- is this your updated routine?

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 19th, 2015, 9:45 pm

Sorry, Curtis, I didn't see your earlier note. I don't believe it ever ran in Genii, and David Acer never forwarded any of the stuff that was given to him for use in Genii when he bailed.
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Curtis Kam » June 20th, 2015, 1:44 am

Yup, Bill, that's the routine. Is it available from Vanishing Inc yet?


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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » August 15th, 2015, 7:24 pm

I have been doing this magnificent trick for 55 years. You can search out my version on you tube. I am out of town and unable to post a link.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 15th, 2015, 9:50 pm

There are new versions by Hiroshi Kondo in the Tenyo book.
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby erdnasephile » August 15th, 2015, 10:28 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:I've been doing Sack's dice routine since the age of 10. It's a magnificent trick. Mike Skinner used to do it with jumbo dice!


I think the Bob Sheet's handling allows you to use jumbo dice as well.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » August 16th, 2015, 4:41 am

The move with the big dice is unnatural. Only the wrist should move not the whole arm.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 16th, 2015, 7:46 am

The size of the dice (and therefore the movement of the wrist, or the wrist and arm) requires a trade-off if you want more than two people to be able to see the spots. Doing the turn with very large dice as Skinner used to is extremely difficult, but Michael used the trick extensively for many years to great success.
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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » August 16th, 2015, 8:43 am

It is not a trade off I am overly keen on as it looks so bloody suspicious and unnatural. I do recognise the advantages of large dice but only in a professional situation. I only perform it impromptu and up to 5 people can see the dice quite easily. I did perform it once on television (BBC's "Crackerjack) though in front of millions and it went over splendidly.
Last edited by performer on August 17th, 2015, 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Matthew Field » August 16th, 2015, 9:45 am

I saw the late Melvin Burkhardt (the renowned blockhead act performer) do the Sack dice effect with HUGE dice at the wedding of Todd Robbins and Krista Brown quite a few years ago. He also hammered what looked like a railroad spike up his nose and did one of the best color changing knife routines I've ever seen. He was in his 80s at the time.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » August 16th, 2015, 10:18 am

I have one major criticism with the way various noted magicians do this trick. They all do something which dilutes the impact badly.

I will explain later.
Last edited by performer on August 17th, 2015, 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Philippe Billot » August 16th, 2015, 1:56 pm

Jim Maloney wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
Jim Maloney wrote:This, by the way, goes back further than Sachs. The concept can be found in The Secret Out, from 1859, as 'A way to end a game of Backgammon' (or some similar title, I'm going from memory here).


Well, I learn something every day. Link (see pp. 119 - 121)

For a 150 year old book, The Secret Out was danged hard to find online.


Thanks for finding that PDF!

Also note that the American and British versions of the book have some significant differences, though I think this item is in both of them. I have both at home -- I'll double check later tonight, if I remember.

And finally, I believe that much of the material in The Secret Out was taken from a French book. I have not confirmed this though as 1. I don't have the book it is supposedly based on and 2. I don't speak French.


In fact, the book The Secret Out, EDITED by CREMER, was published in 1871 (don't confuse with The Secret Out, EDITED by Dick and Fitzgerald in 1859) but, you are right, it's the translation of a french book, to wit (as said Sir Racherbaumer) Le Magicien des salons, written by Delion and published in 1856. See page 262, Manière polie et agréable de faire cesser une partie de tric-trac for the paddle move with a dice.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » August 16th, 2015, 6:10 pm

Ok. My main problem with the way this fine trick is usually done is that the magician talks too much. This is a common fault particularly with American magicians who mistakenly equate excessive blabbing with showmanship when it is anything but.

In the dice trick this is fatal. Chattering should only be going on if something is happening otherwise the bang, bang, bang timing goes to pot and the effect is diluted by the unnecessary chatter.
This is a trick that should not have too many long pauses after each magic moment. It should be one gasp after another
within seconds of each other. The excessive talk ruins this.

Think of a window. A good window does not draw attention to itself. It merely lets the light in.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » October 19th, 2016, 9:48 am

I have been looking all over you tube for the Bob Sheets version of this trick but alas I can't find it. I did find many other versions though all of which were quite horrendous. As I said previously on this thread there is far too much unnecessary yapping.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Bill Mullins » October 19th, 2016, 1:07 pm

performer wrote:I have been looking all over you tube for the Bob Sheets version of this trick but alas I can't find it.


Buy it.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » October 19th, 2016, 2:45 pm

Don't be silly Mullins, old chap! I have been doing the trick for 55 years. I hardly need to purchase it again. Besides some of the reviews underneath are rather discouraging.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » October 19th, 2016, 4:46 pm

Alas this is the nearest thing I could find. It must be the same routine I imagine. Not quite the sort of thing that I would do backward somersaults over I am afraid. I expect Sheets does it better, hopefully without the long winded patter. The move is interesting although one or two occasions it did look a bit iffy. The trade off I suppose. Still, the move is the only thing that seems to be a bit different and I do like the idea of bigger dice but not at the cost of iffiness. I have never seen a single soul do this trick correctly to my satisfaction.

This is not Bob Sheets but I suspect it is the next best thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUzube6bOUI

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Brad Jeffers » October 19th, 2016, 5:55 pm

performer wrote:Think of a window. A good window does not draw attention to itself. It merely lets the light in.

Image

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby Leonard Hevia » October 19th, 2016, 6:59 pm

performer wrote: I have never seen a single soul do this trick correctly to my satisfaction.


James Lewis does it to perfection on his video. Alas, it is not available on DVD.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby NicholasD » October 19th, 2016, 9:29 pm

performer wrote:Ok. My main problem with the way this fine trick is usually done is that the magician talks too much. This is a common fault particularly with American magicians who mistakenly equate excessive blabbing with showmanship when it is anything but.

In the dice trick this is fatal. Chattering should only be going on if something is happening otherwise the bang, bang, bang timing goes to pot and the effect is diluted by the unnecessary chatter.
This is a trick that should not have too many long pauses after each magic moment. It should be one gasp after another
within seconds of each other. The excessive talk ruins this.

Think of a window. A good window does not draw attention to itself. It merely lets the light in.


Respectfully, I absolutely disagree. For quite a while I performed the James Lewis version ( only on VHS and no longer available, as previously mentioned ) as he taught it. The patter was perfect, so I used it word for word. The routine consists of three phases. In recent years ( thanks to a suggestion from Ray Kosby ), I eliminated the middle phase. It is now one of my "go to" effects and I'm constantly amazed at the reactions I get with just two dice. But, getting back to talking, IMO, the routine would be just a bunch of meaningless changes without patter related to each change. Having said that, you might think that the patter would slow the trick down, but after many performances, I've learned that doing the routine at a fast pace with the patter and the moves matching up is the way to go.

On a final note, for me, 3/4" dice are best for visibility close up.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby performer » October 19th, 2016, 10:57 pm

NicholasD wrote:
performer wrote:Ok. My main problem with the way this fine trick is usually done is that the magician talks too much. This is a common fault particularly with American magicians who mistakenly equate excessive blabbing with showmanship when it is anything but.

In the dice trick this is fatal. Chattering should only be going on if something is happening otherwise the bang, bang, bang timing goes to pot and the effect is diluted by the unnecessary chatter.
This is a trick that should not have too many long pauses after each magic moment. It should be one gasp after another
within seconds of each other. The excessive talk ruins this.

Think of a window. A good window does not draw attention to itself. It merely lets the light in.


Respectfully, I absolutely disagree. For quite a while I performed the James Lewis version ( only on VHS and no longer available, as previously mentioned ) as he taught it. The patter was perfect, so I used it word for word. The routine consists of three phases. In recent years ( thanks to a suggestion from Ray Kosby ), I eliminated the middle phase. It is now one of my "go to" effects and I'm constantly amazed at the reactions I get with just two dice. But, getting back to talking, IMO, the routine would be just a bunch of meaningless changes without patter related to each change. Having said that, you might think that the patter would slow the trick down, but after many performances, I've learned that doing the routine at a fast pace with the patter and the moves matching up is the way to go.

On a final note, for me, 3/4" dice are best for visibility close up.


Equally respectfullly I don't give a stuff whether you disagree or not. I can assure you that I am the expert in these matters. I haven't seen the James Lewis version but I suspect the only good part of it is the gentleman's surname. Still, I will reserve judgement on the matter until I see it with my own eyes. So far I haven't seen a single good version yet. I am somewhat horrified that you used the patter word for word. That never works and is an extremely daft thing to do. You should NEVER use someone else's patter! NEVER! It may be wonderful if he does it but bloody awful if YOU do it. He ain't you and you ain't him. I learned that when I was in my baby carriage.

However in my infinite mercy I will concede that you may have shown some wisdom in cutting out the middle part. Not everyone has my superb showmanship and the routine is probably long enough as it is. Three phases could be quite interminable in the wrong hands. I use all three phases since I am a genius of the first magnitude and of course some of us are born to lead and some of us are born to follow.

I do use patter but ONLY WHEN SOMETHING IS HAPPENING. And I do work at a fast pace. All three phases are over in two minutes. Everyone else seems to take twice or even three times as long. I talk all through the trick in fact but I never do one phase then chatter for ages between each phase. That dilutes the effect of the trick and puts people to sleep.

I have garnered incredible reactions from LAYMEN over the decades I have been doing this trick. The only reason I wanted to view the Sheets version is to see how he used the big dice and what move he used. Since my original post someone sent me a clip of him doing it and my curiosity is now satisfied. Not quite the sort of thing that I am looking for I am afraid although I do like the concept of using big dice. I do see the advantages to using them.

However, I will not be taking advantage of the advantages. I see no advantage in doing so. I already have the advantage after all.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby David Moore » October 19th, 2016, 11:29 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
James Lewis does it to perfection on his video. Alas, it is not available on DVD.


What video?

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby NicholasD » October 19th, 2016, 11:38 pm

David Moore wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:
James Lewis does it to perfection on his video. Alas, it is not available on DVD.


What video?


His VHS video that was available around twenty years ago.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby David Moore » October 20th, 2016, 12:01 am

NicholasD wrote:
David Moore wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:
James Lewis does it to perfection on his video. Alas, it is not available on DVD.


What video?


His VHS video that was available around twenty years ago.


It's not on "Million Dollar Mysteries", the only video I'm aware of.

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Re: Sachs and Sack's

Postby NicholasD » October 20th, 2016, 12:05 am

David Moore wrote:
NicholasD wrote:
David Moore wrote:
What video?


His VHS video that was available around twenty years ago.


It's not on "Million Dollar Mysteries", the only video I'm aware of.


He produced a separate VHS tape on just the Sack dice routine.


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