The Black Envelope

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The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » November 23rd, 2002, 6:46 pm

One of my star routines is John Bannon's "Heart of the city". Over the months I have made some major changes to fit my style, and I often have requests for it, and just a few days ago our local Magic group was discussing some of the points that weaken the effect, such as the awkward handling just before the reveal of the card, IE why reveal it upside down? Most, if not all of the weaknesses are covered by the propper patter. So I was naturally interested in Mr. Kohler's "The black envelope", which has a similar effect using an entirely different method, plus (like Heart of the city), you can start with a borrowed deck and begin and end totally clean.

Just yesterday I got Bob Kohler's "Black Envelope" and was up until past 3am working on three of four of his included routines, (one routine just doesn't fit my style) and I have to say, it is absolute, utter genius.

As long as you can do a bottom palm and control a card and act a little bit, you can learn any one of the routines in a very short time. One of the routines doesn't even require palming Even as I practice it in the mirror, I fool myself. Congratulations to Bob Kohler for an effect worth far more than the price. I'm keeping this one for lay audiences only, It's too good to 'waste' at a magic meeting.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 23rd, 2002, 6:50 pm

Originally posted by Mark Johnson:
...an effect worth far more than the price. I'm keeping this one for lay audiences only, It's too good to 'waste' at a magic meeting.
Congrats on the wise investment. Can the trick be done with a non black envelope? ie like a greeting card comes in?

asking becuase some folks get freaked out by black envelopes.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Guest

Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » November 23rd, 2002, 7:12 pm

I'd rather have Bob answer this question. (Bob spends some time on this subject on the DVD.)

He has some really good reasons for the type of envelope, and I won't discuss them as it may be infringe on his invention. All I can say is try it and see for yourself.

The envelopes have an elegent look, and are totally examinable and normal in every way with no hidden gaff to worry about. I can't see why it would present a problem as it stands. I have received wedding invitations in envelopes that would work perfectly. and I'd guess you could find some other style that fits the method at your local specialty greeting card store.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Kendrix » November 24th, 2002, 12:28 pm

Jonathon: The "Black " envelope is what worries about this, too. But maybe, I run when no one is chasing me.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Shawn Preston » November 26th, 2002, 5:11 pm

I would have to agree with Mark. the black envelope is killer. While watching the performances on the video I kept picking up the envelope and looking for the gimmick. It completely fooled me. The only thing I would like to mention is the fact that michael kaminskas developed a routine utilizing the same method and is published in his first book. Not to discredit Bob by any means but I think mr kaminskas deserves some recognition for having developed his version several years ago. The envelope Bob uses are specifically made for the routine. They are made without the adhesive strip on the flap. While Bob does not recommend using an envelope with a gummy strip (and I agree) you certainly could use another envelope of a different color. The envelope is called a "baronial 4" size and most good paper stores can get you one or several in a multitude of colors. Again I highly recommend Bob's envelopes as they do not have the gummy strip on the flap which could cause potential problems. Buy the trick. Its worth it just to be fooled while watching it!

Regards
Shawn
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. - Einstein

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 26th, 2002, 5:54 pm

Originally posted by Kendrix:
... run when no one is chasing me.
... or maybe we tend to be around people of culture who know the term 'household gods', and may have received an official 'black' envelope?

Their children taught me about what bowls are used a funerals and why cups are not left mouth down on tables. The look a bemusement that accompanies such faux pas is hardly worth the cost.

Then again our community still tries to do 'ring flite' for the wife instead of the girlfriend.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Ryan Matney
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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Ryan Matney » November 26th, 2002, 6:47 pm

The only thing I would like to mention is the fact that michael kaminskas developed a routine utilizing the same method and is published in his first book. Not to discredit Bob by any means but I think mr kaminskas deserves some recognition for having developed his version several years ago.
The original concept was published by Peter Duffie in "Inspirations" in 1987 (I Think). Was the Kaminskas trick published before that?

Reading the original routine, I don't see any reason why you can't use any envelope. It's a great trick by the way and Bob Kohler has added some cool ideas.
Get the Dirty Work - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Jeff Haas » November 26th, 2002, 6:55 pm

Actually, isn't it just a clever (and flat) variation of the Fred Kaps card-in-box?

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby NCMarsh » November 26th, 2002, 6:59 pm

anybody have the story on the proper card-to-box credit? I've heard Bruno Henig's name given as an originator but don't know the accuracy/source...is it Kaps'?

as for the Black Envelope: while the method doesn't "depend" on the color of the envelope, the color does help conceal a possible flash if you make a minor error...a very professional touch on Bob's part...

Regards,
nate.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » November 26th, 2002, 7:42 pm

Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:
anybody have the story on the proper card-to-box credit? I've heard Bruno Henig's name given as an originator but don't know the accuracy/source...is it Kaps'?
Every source I've seen had credited Fred Kaps with the effect. I don't know when/where it originally appeared, though. Perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge of the history and credits could enlighten us. Is Max Maven or Jamy Ian Swiss around?

-Jim

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » November 26th, 2002, 8:46 pm

Originally posted by Ryan Matney:
The only thing I would like to mention is the fact that michael kaminskas developed a routine utilizing the same method and is published in his first book. Not to discredit Bob by any means but I think mr kaminskas deserves some recognition for having developed his version several years ago.
The original concept was published by Peter Duffie in "Inspirations" in 1987 (I Think). Was the Kaminskas trick published before that?

Reading the original routine, I don't see any reason why you can't use any envelope. It's a great trick by the way and Bob Kohler has added some cool ideas.
There is a very lengthy thread at the Magic Cafe regarding the Black Envelope including detailed discussions of prior card to envelope effects including discussions from creators of other card to envelope effects. I found it very informative for those interested in some the history of the effect. Its at http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... 1&forum=29

The meat of it starts at page 5 if you want to jump ahead in the thread.

Guest

Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » December 1st, 2002, 8:37 am

Here's the proper credits for the beginnings of the Black Envelope. Frank Garcia showed the basic idea to a small group at FFFF one night at 4 am. He didn't credit the idea, he also did not take credit for the idea. What he showed me was not practical. I now believe Martini showed his routine to Frank. Martini's routine was close to ten years old when Frank showed me the concept. I came up the majority of my ideas in the next two years. Then I found Peter Duffie's routine. I'm sure that Peter independantly came up with his routine. I have spoken with both gentleman involved and they both were very happy with my additions. On the DVD, I give credit to Peter. I wasn't aware that Martini was the first to come up with the idea until the DVD was on the market. I hope this clears up the proper credit.

As far as Michael Kaminskas is concerned, he gets absolutely no credit. He saw my routine at a dinner at Barry Taylor's house and decided to publish the routine in "his" book. Witnesses at the dinner were several of the Brooke Farm Inn of Magic magicians Barry Wood, Larry Davidson, Nick DiiCuitus. Of Course Barry Taylor and Jack Birnman were also there. Here's a fun holiday puzzle. Take the Kaminskis book and attempt to credit each routine in the book. Here's a clue, most are not listed.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby pduffie » December 1st, 2002, 9:20 am

Hi Bob

Actually I would dispute that Martini was the first to come up with the idea. I came up with it in the mid-seventies. I performed it as part of my formal (booked) close-up act at the Blackpool Convention in 1978 for an audience of over 1000. It was also in a set of lecture notes at this time. It remained in my lectures until I published it in Inspirations.

As Martini cites a similar time-frame for himself, I would accept that we both came up with the idea simultaneously.

Best Wishes

Peter

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » December 1st, 2002, 9:26 am

Bob,

My two favorite routines are "Thought of card" and "No Palm card to envelope"

The first routine is great for all those hacked up decks I've had sitting in a box. people who bought the effect know what I'm talking about.

I just grab a bunch of low-spots from my reject pile, prepare them and keep them in a separate pocket, ready to go. The other minor detail that I changed was that I use colored paper clips as a private clue to prevent any possibility of using the wrong envelope, especially when borrowing a deck.

"Thought of card" has such a great 'out' that it appeals to my sense of how a well designed effect should be.

The other effects are all great, I just haven't practiced them.

Guest

Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » December 1st, 2002, 11:16 am

My favorite routine is "Thought of card"! Where can I find more about the "mental force"? I know the vatiations by D.Dingle, M.Rogers, D.Garrett, B.Malone and Bob Kohlers. I like to studie everything about the think of a card effects and I'm searching for variations.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Max Maven » December 1st, 2002, 1:17 pm

Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:
anybody have the story on the proper card-to-box credit? I've heard Bruno Henig's name given as an originator but don't know the accuracy/source...is it Kaps'?
Bearing in mind that we're discussing a specific card-to-box method, not the generic effect itself,
Fred did not claim its invention. Although I never heard him cite Bruno Hennig as the inventor, others recall that he did. To my understanding, however, several years ago someone finally had the bright idea to call Hennig and ask directly -- and, apparently, he disavows the invention. So, although there are precedents, the specific card-to-box that is associated with Fred Kaps must reside in the "inventor unknown" category unless/until further information is uncovered.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Brian Marks » December 1st, 2002, 4:16 pm

I really loved the ploy used for making a duplicate in the card to envelope routine. I am using the concept for a ambitious card routine. I am actually using some of the envelopes for a completely different routine, Derick Dingels cards across. They are the perfect size. Everything on the DVD is killer, I will be doing the thought of card and card to envelope.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Shawn Preston » December 2nd, 2002, 9:33 am

I stand corrected. In my previous post I noted that Michael Kaminskas had published a similar routine several years ago. At the time I did not know that full history and I apologize if my comment was offensive or misleading. As Bob has pointed out this was a blatant rip off on Mr. Kaminskas part. Its a shame that this sort of thing happens. How hard is it really to ask the creator permission to use an effect. Bob did his homework and has the utmost respect for his predecessors, which is something that I applaud. Even if it means keeping an effect under wraps for many years, until permission is granted. The Black envelope is an absolute killer piece of magic. I've been doing the sraight card to envelope for 2 months and it rocks! I thank Bob for making such a great routine available, working out the bugs, and making me look good. And to the originators for creating such a marvelous effect.

In the faith
Shawn
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. - Einstein

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Curtis Kam » December 2nd, 2002, 9:36 pm

Regardng the Card in the Box, didn't Scotty York set out the history of the basic effect (and the addition of the moving card) in his lecture notes "For Your Eyes Only"?

Or is there another side to this story?

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 3rd, 2002, 10:08 am

Originally posted by Curtis Kam:
Or is there another side to this story?
So long as they all know about the card to wallet from 82 using the sliding thingie, then things are good. If that is news, well some folks have some things to answer for. :D

Likewise it is not too much of a stretch to expect you experimented with a retractable thingie for your 'Jack in the box' handling as well.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » December 15th, 2002, 9:15 am

Originally posted by Max Maven:
Originally posted by Nathan Coe Marsh:
[b]anybody have the story on the proper card-to-box credit? I've heard Bruno Henig's name given as an originator but don't know the accuracy/source...is it Kaps'?
Bearing in mind that we're discussing a specific card-to-box method, not the generic effect itself,
Fred did not claim its invention. Although I never heard him cite Bruno Hennig as the inventor, others recall that he did. To my understanding, however, several years ago someone finally had the bright idea to call Hennig and ask directly -- and, apparently, he disavows the invention. So, although there are precedents, the specific card-to-box that is associated with Fred Kaps must reside in the "inventor unknown" category unless/until further information is uncovered.[/b]
Hi,

my name is Martin J. C. Klein-Hennig and I am a conjuror from Oldenburg, Germany. As Bruno Hennig's grandson I'm also responsible for the adminstration of his internet site ( http://www.weser-ems-markt.de/joro/english.html ) and his mail account.

On december 2nd, we received a mail from Craig Matsouka, who told us about a discussion about the origin of the "Card in Box" method. I translated this mail for Bruno and here is his "authorized" answer:

"1958 Kalanag performed his show in the "Kaiserhof" in Cologne. We conjurors from the local circle in Cologne invited him to have a breakfast. Mr. Ackermann, who acted as a Chinese in his show and Fred Kaps were with us, along with Henk Vermeyden and Jean Marc, who worked in the "Apollo" in Duesseldorf that time. It was rumored that Fred Kaps and Henk Vermeyden planned to take over Kalanag's show, since Kalanag was going to perform for TV shows.

During this breakfast I showed Fred Kaps the "Faltkarte in der Schachtel" or "Card to Box". He liked it and asked me for my permission to perform this trick. At that time I was called "Bruno Hennig" and did not have my stage name "Joro".

During a later meeting Fred Kaps told me, that Scotty York gave him the tip to attach the card to a thread, so that it can be moved."

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Pete Biro » December 15th, 2002, 9:49 am

This is why, Richard, Genii Forum MUST KEEP GOING, where else do you get this kind of information.

Why not devote a page to the printed version to some of the REALLY IMPORTANT messages that come in here?
Stay tooned.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Dave Shepherd » December 16th, 2002, 2:46 am

I just bought this trick (Black Envelope, not Faltkarte in der Schachtel) from Bob Kohler, based largely on the enthusiastic discussion in this thread.

I am eagerly awaiting its arrival.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Bill Mullins » March 9th, 2003, 11:37 pm

Just picked up "Semi-Automatic Card Tricks" (vol 1) from Steve Beam at Gatlinburg this weekend. The Martini trick is in there, and originally appeared in Beam lost lamented magazine, The Trapdoor.

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Re: The Black Envelope

Postby Guest » August 3rd, 2006, 9:50 am

It is wonderful that Mr. Hennig's grandson has confirmed the history that has long been recounted by Scotty York and recorded in my writing (and in the recent "Card to Box history" thread elsewhere in the Genii forum, in the history section). My sincere gratitude to Martin Klein-Hennig.


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