How many books/DVDs do you own

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
asdf
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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » September 20th, 2010, 12:28 am

When I was checking to see if I had any new reply another (of the million) question(s) popped into my mind: Let`s say someone has tons of great tricks, how would he know when to show each? Someone asked him to see a trick. He is at a restaurant showing tricks. Etc. Would he always show the strongest first? Should he do a quick one that has a big effect on the audience, or a long routine that is also amazing, and has a big effect on the audience? If he would only show two, should it be the two strongest ones? If he will show 10 tricks, should the strongest ones be first or last? Or both?
Thanks again everybody!
RZ.

John Wilson
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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » September 20th, 2010, 4:45 pm

If I find that a trick is weak, I look for ways to improve it or find new material. There are some that play better than others with different audiences, but I keep my effects very direct. When asked to perform I just decide what type of effect will be the best for that situation.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Glenn Bishop » September 21st, 2010, 11:40 am

Here are a few thoughts about putting together a magic routine. I look at routining an act like stringing a handful of beads. Each bead is a routine. The most important part is the string - the string is the performer and the personality of the performer.

I make out a list - I want a strong beginning - a strong middle and a strong closer.

My close up show runs like this - I open with the chop dice cup - this is quick - draws them in and has a quick strong climax. Then card tricks - closing the card section strong with the cards to wallet - then matrix. This is a bridge to bring in other magic - coins and cards - then ring on a stick, Different and strong.

Then the shell game - this is a bridge again to bring the subject of magic into the subject of street cons and gambling. Then the deck comes out again and I do one or two strong poker deals (often with the punch deck) - then I close the gambling part with three card monte.

Then I do the cups and balls with loads as a closer. There are other magic tricks I can add if I want to fill in more time - sponge balls - die Namic diamonds - coins and anvil in hat - other things each strong and can have a place.

When I do magic I want to do strong magic routines - however making that connection to draw them in - and using humor and getting laughs and making it a fun time is a very important part to entertaining modern audiences.

Just a few thoughts and opinion.

Cheers!

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » September 21st, 2010, 4:23 pm

Thanks guys!
I see, start with a quick one to draw them in, then just flow through all of the routines, and then end with a very strong one. Something that I have noticed is that a lot of magicians close with a cups and balls routine, why? But also, magicians do specific tricks in (for example) interviews, why choose that specific one? Or in a bar, or at school, how do you know what fits better where?

Also, today I was showing a trick to a guy, and he was like "Oh I saw that break", but I actually used a jog, so I know that he was just saying that to make him look better in front of the other people, and then I showed him another one, and he was like oh I know how you did it, I saw a tutorial of that on YouTube, I ignored, and changed subjects. In the end I asked him if he really knew, and how, and he said that he forgot. This is not the first guy that I've shown tricks to, that has seen a few tutorials on YouTube, and thinks that he knows everything in magic. So I wanted to know how you guys would deal with this type of people? Show more advanced tricks him? Leave him, and show other people tricks? Or something else? What would you do? Maybe I can learn from your experience. Also, what do you do when you actually do get caught?
Sorry for asking so many questions in one thread, I have no body else to ask :(, and I won't make 527 new threads :P.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 21st, 2010, 5:14 pm

You have to be better than any dope they've watched on YouTube! That's why you need to learn lots of different sleights, so you have different tools to do the same job.
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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » September 21st, 2010, 6:59 pm

"You have to be better than any dope they've watched on YouTube! That's why you need to learn lots of different sleights, so you have different tools to do the same job" But how does knowing other sleights help with that? If the person knows, and saw a tutorial of triumph on YouTube, then they know the trick, if I use a push through instead of a zarrow, and they only know about the zarrow, won't they think that I used a zarrow? Also, how should you actually deal with the person presentation-wise, what should you do if they know a trick that you showed them (or just say that they do)? Should you just ignore, and move on to the next person?
Another guy that I did it to, was not a layman, he watched so many tutorials on YouTube, and even though he did it badly (because of YouTube), he did know some stuff, so everything I did, he looked at it with different eyes, and was trying to figure out everything I did. Should I even show tricks to these people? I usually show more advanced ones to them, but the first few tricks that I show them, I assume that they are laymen, and do some things that they might already know, is that why you need more sleights? To deal with situations like this. So what would you do, and what are your thoughts on this?
Thank you!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Gordolini » September 21st, 2010, 10:29 pm

Regarding your first question on why learn different sleights - yes, different techniques can be used that may lead to the same outcome, but your execution may be better depending on the sleights chosen. Perhaps your push through or Zarrow needs more refinement in execution. There are many resources available that demonstrate or teach these shuffles. There are also many methods of doing a trick, such as Triumph, using a fair looking or normal shuffle and spectators that are looking for a false shuffle may be fooled.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » September 27th, 2010, 7:09 pm

Sorry for the late replies, my computer is broken, so I have to answer from my phone, which is harder, and sorry if my grammar is a bit hard to understand, I'll try not to though.
So, I agree that you should learn as many false shuffles, controls, and etc, but what about false dealing for example, it is rarely used in magic, and I practiced it so much. I am learning and mastering every sleight and most of the tricks in card college, but I don't find most of the tricks amazing. Maybe card college is just a card magic course, but doesn't have the best tricks? Most of them don't compare to any of the ones that I listed above. But I want to go a step further, and learn stronger tricks than the ones listed above, but where? Stars of magic? Will I learn much stronger tricks there, and use the sleights that i know?Where else can I learn stronger tricks?

I made up a trick, that uses a not so easy sleights, and I think that I get more reaction on my trick, than the ones listed above, so more sleights also help make up your own tricks?

Here's another question: Do the stronger tricks than the ones listed above usually use more, and not so easy sleights?

Thanks again!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Gordolini » September 27th, 2010, 11:18 pm

As mentioned earlier, one of the "strongest" card tricks is "Out of this World" and generally this trick requires minimal handling (yet a book can and has been written exploring this plot and various methods).

Perhaps you need to ask yourself what makes a trick strong? Who is your audience? Does the trick have an easy to follow plot? Impossible outcome? New twist to the outcome? Shocking outcome? Execution of sleights not suspected because of superb execution and/or great misdirection? Unsuspected use of a gaff card or a stacked deck? Are some tricks stronger by the style and presentation of the performer? Does cardistry amaze or hinder? Can eliminating a difficult sleight improve the trick?

You will find similar and different opinions as you read more books, watch dvds and see experienced performers. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » September 28th, 2010, 2:25 am

I, personally, use a strike second deal quite often in performance. It is not something that I consider difficult any more. I think it is a very direct and powerful method. I know that not everyone uses it, but I am comfortable with it. I also use bottom deals on occasion, but only with gambling related effects. I feel comfortable using this as well within the context of the effect.

When I think of obscure moves, a lot of times they are ones that other people use that I shy away from while others tend to shy away from the methods I prefer. I still enjoy knowing and working to perfect certain moves, whether I use them or not. The reason for this can only be seen when a particular effect is desired from a particular position of the deck that would make it less natural for one to switch grips or adjust in some other way. At those moments in the development of an effect having a wide arsenal is of particular interest. Or especially in a disaster and a nonstandard move is required.

If I am feeling especially "jazzy" I will invent a new effect on the spot often using the first methods that come to mind. These moments have been my most rewarding in performance, using the knowledge that I have acquired over the years to solve a brand new challenge. There is no way that I could have prepared for these moments without practicing moves I never thought I would use. There is probably also no way that I could have explained to my younger self that that is a good reason to practice different techniques. I say just stick with it and eventually you will understand. Just my opinion, but I hope it helps.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » September 29th, 2010, 6:32 pm

So a lot of very strong tricks don't require hard sleights like out of this world? Basically this is what happens, i spend hours and hours just practicing sleights from card college, amd other places, I am currently practicing riffle stacking, and I am finding it a little bit challenging. After a long time, I will be done with riffle stacking (just like every sleight) and when I am done, I will keep doing the same tricks as mentioned above, out of this world could be added, election could be added, and etc, so maybe, instead of having a book of card magic course, maybe I should have one on very strong tricks. What are sleights for? For magic, but what are they used for if they are not in good tricks? I like practicing sleights, but it would be nice to have some applications. Today I did a bottom dealing demonstration, and got almost no reaction, and then did a simple trick, and the people went crazy. I just wanted more very good/strong tricks, and some even stronger ones using the sleights that i spend so much time practicing them.
Btw, what do you use a strike second deal for in performing?
Thanks for your answers!
RZ

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 10th, 2010, 6:26 pm

I think that I have been finding more uses for more difficult sleights, but another question that I have is; how is presentation/shomanship different on stage, and for 1-5 people watching it close-up? People are always talking about presentation, and how much it is important, but on stage, you usually see people having more introduction to every trick, and talking a lot to introduce the trick, but are you supposed to do that when there is only like 1 person watching? Or should you have less of an introduction, and directly ask the person to pick a card? And how would you compare close-up VS stage,in general? Also, can close-up magic be done on stage?
Thank you!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » October 11th, 2010, 2:18 am

Presentation is not all about introduction. I use very little introduction if any when I perform. For me, presentation is really what the whole experience is about. No one would be impressed if I just said what sleights were going to be used and then performed them. Presentation is about making the use of those sleights seamless and functionally invisible. Every movement should be natural and nothing should seem unnecessary. To me at least, that is what I think about when I think about structuring/presentation. If the actions are all motivated by the presentation that I have developed, then the effect should be clear and powerful.

I have no experience on a stage, but I have seen several close-up performers who work very well on a stage with a large screen for the rest of the audience to follow.

I use a strike second for a couple of effects. I prefer using a strike second instead of a top change for one effect. I use a second for a card at number effect. Also, I use a strike third for a two selection routine that I devised. Occasionally I do some other gambling themed routines that use a second deal. On top of that, it is always ready if I happen to make a mistake.

asdf
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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 11th, 2010, 2:19 pm

What do YOU mean by introduction? What I mean is introducing a next trick that you will perform, by saying something, I've been watching on YouTube videos of great magicians performing, to see there performance, handling, ideas, and etc. Here is what I mean by introducing a trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy4RUsa0 ... re=related
When Darwin explains that he doesn't know the trick very well, and that it is a brand new card trick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV3zYSAY ... re=related
Explaining that he created the trick for even people that don't play cards to understand about card cheating
Almost all of the related videos there have an 'introduction'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbY9VA1r ... re=related
Almost all of the demos have a brief introduction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC8vDC7DWrc
Explains a bit about the history of the trick

Etc.

Why doesn't it have to do with presentation?
I've noticed that on stage, or just in fornt of more people (like the videos above), when it is a show, thhe performer talks more, introduces the tricks more, and etc. So how is this, and presentation different on stage, than in is to one or two people? Should I apply everything that I see these guys doing even though they are doing shows?
Thank you!
RZ.
P.S. Off course, I'm not gonna copy them, just learn from them.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » October 13th, 2010, 5:49 pm

I am not saying that I use no introduction at all, just that mine is minimal. I think in both the Forte and Malone videos the introductions were as minimal as they could be. To me, excessive introduction is boring. You do need more of it in a more formal setting, though. I think there are definitely things to learn from each video that you posted, especially from Bill Malone. He manages to make an ace cutting routine very engaging and personal. I think it is very difficult to generate the kind of rapport that he has with that group while talking about history and showing them a card trick.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 13th, 2010, 9:31 pm

I thought that introduction was a big part of presentation. Can you give me examples of what are parts of presentation/showmanship? And if you're making a show, shouldn't you use introductions to transition between effects?

Thanks for your help!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby William Phung » October 14th, 2010, 8:35 am

Dear asdf,
Recently I have taken notice of your questions and your development which is clearly reflected by your comments on the Genii forum. It is clear that you have a genuine interest and investment in the artform and it is also clear that you are a recent proselyte. Let me confer some advice.
Find a great old and sadly much forgotten tome called "Our Magic" by David Devant and Maskelyne. Read it thoroughly, digest it and most importantly study it and apply the principles. Hidden in between the lines are the real secrets to our artform , the answers you seek and then some. If you want to be leagues beyond your contemporaries you will heed this age old advice. Get away from honing your presentation skills by culling and dissecting pieces of other peoples personalities lest ye construct some bastard child that none will dare gaze upon. Although by all means respect and consider the opinions of those on this board who have generously lathered you, I expect I will have their approval when I say with utmost confidence that the old English masters are the more qualified authorities on the subject. As many here will agree, the secrets Ive offered would constitute exposure, but if Our Magic ever taught a man anything its that a little exposure never hurt anybody.
Consequently, I suggest you follow up by seeking out the Ten basic books for a working library of conjuring as outlined by H.Adrian Smith.
1. Modern Magic
2. More Magic
3. Later Magic (1911 edition or later)
4. The Art of Magic
5. The Expert at the Card Table
6. The Modern Conjuror
7. Magician's Tricks and How They Are Done
8. Greater Magic
9. Our Magic
10. The Tarbell Course

Houdini, Blackstone, Vernon and even Blaine studied these classics and their successes can be attributed to these sorely neglected works which exist in an age where most seemingly people do not have the patience to sit down and read a few well said words. I hope you do not belong to such a category.
With kindness,
William Phung

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby mrgoat » October 14th, 2010, 11:23 am

Is it only me that finds Mr Ortiz's performances really, um, no where near as good as his books?

He doesn't appear comfortable as a performer, to me.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » October 14th, 2010, 3:05 pm

I agree Goat. He seems very fidgity. Also, I have never understood the idea of having a spectator shuffle a deck, then the performer openly removes cards from it face up. This he does so he can remove cards openly and cull some. She shuffled for a couple of minutes too.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 20th, 2010, 12:15 am

Thank you, great answer.
Sorry for the late reply, computer problems again.
What is "Out Magic" on? Presentation or sleight of hand? From what you said, it seems like a great book, and I'll sure add it to my list. Do you think that it will answer my questions?
And who is H. Adrian Smith, and why is his list of the ten basic books for a working library of conjuring so respected?
And just out of curiosity, do most magicians' repertoirs consist of their own tricks, or other tricks? Because suddenly my favourite tricks are becoming the ones that I made up myself.
Thank you!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Gordolini » October 20th, 2010, 8:18 am

Google Our Magic and H. Adrian Smith and you will find the answers. For a more recent opinion, check out Jason England's advice on books to read at Theory 11.

Harry Lorayne

Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Harry Lorayne » October 20th, 2010, 10:38 am

No mention? I'm terribly disappointed! HARRY L.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Gordolini » October 20th, 2010, 1:57 pm

Of course anything by Harry Lorayne is essential reading, much of which is now compiled in the Classic Collection Volumes 1 & 2. (Jason's comments on what to read includes your classic Close-Up Card Magic book.) A treasure trove of great tricks and sound advice. How's that? Thanks

Harry Lorayne

Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Harry Lorayne » October 20th, 2010, 2:12 pm

Gordolini: That's good! Best - HL.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 22nd, 2010, 12:01 am

"Google Our Magic and H. Adrian Smith and you will find the answers." I did before I asked it here, and I think that our magic is mostly about presentation, but also talks a bit about card stuff, and all I could find on H. Adrian Smith is that he was the owner of a magic library, but how does that make him respectable for magicians?
"For a more recent opinion, check out Jason England's advice on books to read at Theory 11."
I did, and it is great.
And btw, I have never yet read a book by Harry Lorayne, but I have heard amazing things about them. I have heard that they are great and classics, and of course, I will still buy them when I can :).

Thank you!

RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Richard Hatch » October 22nd, 2010, 12:11 am

H. Adrian Smith was a professional magician for several years during the depression, noted for his memorized deck routine and several other specialties. He also assembled what was in its time the finest privately owned English language library of magic books (now housed at Brown University) and was a true scholar of the subject. At the time of his death he was Dean of the Society of American Magicians, a mark of the respect in which he was held by the magic community for his many contributions to the art. His opinion on the ten basic treatises of magic was echoed by magic scholar Charles Reynolds (advisor to Doug Henning and Blackstone Jr) in the latter's introduction to the Dover reprint of one of the Hoffmann books. Incidentally, Smith specified the original Tarbell course of 60 lessons (the correspondence course) in his list, as distinguished from the multivolume (currently 8) course of the same name, which he considered a good anthology, but not an effective course, as was the original...

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Dynamike » October 23rd, 2010, 7:25 am

I have about 200 DVDs, about 30 videos and about 40 books.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 26th, 2010, 9:53 pm

@Richard Oh, thank you, I`ll probably want those books

@Dynamike Thanks, almost forgot what the op was about :P

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 27th, 2010, 11:55 pm

Sometimes I think I get it, and sometimes, I am completely confused.. now I am completely confused. I looked back and saw the list of tricks that I used to perform (the one I wrote above), and since then, I have improved a lot, but I still only do the same tricks. I have also improved a lot over the past 6 months, and the tricks are still the same with a few changes here and there. Like I said, I like practicing, but still beginners can do my best tricks, I could do them a long time ago, but they are still one of my best ones. It bothers me, because it seems like a lot of my hard work has been useless. I went to a Jay Sankey lecture, and asked him the same question, and he told me that I was right, you don't use a lot of the stuff, but he told me to keep doing what I like doing that in the end, it will all come together.. but it hasn't. Any answers?

Thank you!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » October 28th, 2010, 12:28 pm

Six months later is not the end.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 28th, 2010, 5:23 pm

"Six months later is not the end." 3 and ahalf years ago I could probably do these tricks, maybe not as well, I just didn't know some of them, but my point is that when you get technically better, shouldn't you have better tricks? But it doesn't seem to be happening to me. That is one of the reasons that I created my other thread, "Show Me A Card Trick", and even coming from experts, most of them did not require much skill, a few of them did, but not most. Whenever there is a question like that, a lot of the answers are ACR, including mine, and most of them don't require much skill either, just a pass (for some of them). So I am still confused..

Thanks!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby John Wilson » October 28th, 2010, 5:43 pm

You could do a good pass when you started card magic? I couldn't. I am going to assume that your pass has improved over the years. If you want to increase the difficulty level of your ambitious card routine, there are thousands of moves to choose from. If your desire is to use more difficult sleight of hand, there are certainly options for you. If you want to use less sleight of hand, there are many self working or "easy" effects out there. The choice is yours.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » October 28th, 2010, 7:35 pm

I sure couldn't do a good pass, but is that what makes or breaks the trick? I mentioned the pass, because that was one of the only moves that aren't technically easy that was used in a very good trick, and one that I would show to other people often. Other than that, not many.

"If your desire is to use more difficult sleight of hand, there are certainly options for you. If you want to use less sleight of hand, there are many self working or "easy" effects out there."
Will the more difficult ones be stronger than the self working ones? If so, then where can I find sturff like that? As I said, my best effects are ones that I could do when I waqss starting out. I've improved, but my ability to do my best trickks hasn't a lot. Is all of this stuff really useless?

Thanks Again!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » November 20th, 2010, 6:07 pm

Anyone?
Maybe what I am trying to ask is what effects could I do that are stronger than just triumph. I want to get out of the stage hat if someone asked me to see a trick, I would probably show triumph, if someone asked Juan Tamariz to do a trick, he would probably do something better and more advanced, and that is the type of thing that I am talking about, where can I learn "better and more advanced" tricks?
Thank you!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Gordolini » November 21st, 2010, 9:27 am

You seem to be hung up on "better and more advanced" card tricks. The simple answer is read more advanced books and dvds. My impression is you already know a lot of better and more advanced tricks. Triumph is a very good trick. Perhaps it is not the trick but the method, execution or presentation of the trick that needs more work?

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » November 21st, 2010, 3:42 pm

"You seem to be hung up on "better and more advanced" card tricks." The reason for that is because the tricks I do now, are tricks that someone who is just starting out can do, one of the examples that I gave was triumph, and even though I know a lot of more advanced tricks, I wouldn't say that they are any bettter than triumph (or the biddle trick, or etc), it is not that I don't find triumph good, I find it very good, it's even my one of my best and that is the problem, my best trick is one that I could do 3 and a half years ago. Since then, I have improved a lot, but not my tricks, I think that triumph is amazing, but all of the tricks that I've learned that use more advanced stuff are not any better, they are just as good. So my question is; How can I go a step further, and where can I learn tricks that are better than triumph?
Thank you!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Bill Mullins » November 21st, 2010, 5:21 pm

Triumph is the second-best trick ever invented. The best is Paul Curry's "Out of this World". Learn it and you will know the best two tricks.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby asdf » November 21st, 2010, 5:51 pm

"Triumph is the second-best trick ever invented. The best is Paul Curry's "Out of this World". Learn it and you will know the best two tricks" Agreed :(. So as you get better, you don't learn better tricks, you just know more? Where can I find a book/DVD that teaches better tricks using your skillls?
Thaks!
RZ.

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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Bill Mullins » November 21st, 2010, 7:00 pm

I was being somewhat facetious (although those are two very good tricks). Honestly, if you want to do very good card tricks, take some you already do well, and make them better. Probably the best card trick I ever saw was Bob Sheets doing the Homing Card. Already a good trick, but what Bob had done with it was what made it great. And you could name any of a dozen top card magicians who could also do it well, but it still wouldn't be the performance that it was in Bob's hands.

And there's no sense in you going out and buying Bob's version and learning it, because it won't be _your_ great trick -- it will still be his. That's not to say you couldn't eventually do a great version of the Homing Card. But if you do, it will be because you've made it yours.

The best trick you will ever do may be one you already know.

Terry
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Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
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Re: How many books/DVDs do you own

Postby Terry » November 21st, 2010, 8:30 pm

To extend Bill's thought about knowing a trick - one has to know the handling, presentation, outs (if necessary), etc.

I believe it was Al Baker who said, "Most magicians stop thinking too soon."

Re: Triumph - the original is still the best (IMHO) because a layman could retell the plot without too much effort. All of the "improvements" cloud the basic idea.


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