Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Glenn Bishop
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 27th, 2009, 12:53 pm

I like this eye in the sky view in this video.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... dshark.wmv

Not only do I show one jog shuffle cull and stack and after that two different riffle shuffle cull - stacking methods. The first one from a slug and the second on the fly.

The jog shuffle stack was sort of inspired by the culling actionof the Zingone spread in expert card technique. Here Louis Zingone uses a cull to control three selected cards. This was the first I ever read of a cull being used in magic for a trick other than a poker routine.

I liked the idea but did not like the method so I changed it and made it fit the way I like to work - and most often use the idea in a poker deal routine.

The riffle shuffle stuff fits into the challange that I wanted to acomplish for myself - being able to take any deck of cards and - put the aces in the deck in different parts - have the deck shuffled and then just by doing a table riffle shuffle several times - cull and stack three to four aces on the fly.

I think that the idea is very cool.

Enjoy.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 30th, 2009, 7:23 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:It's logic because Vernon used a Strip Out Shuffle with a Block Transfer. A false shuffle in which you can displace a card or a block of cards. Marlo explained this clearly in 1959 in his book Riffle Shuffle System.

That false shuffle - is one of the things that makes the triumph shuffle (in my opinion) great for culling and stacking deep - and culling and stacking on the fly as I do in my video.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 31st, 2009, 4:20 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:makes the triumph shuffle (in my opinion) great for culling and stacking deep - and culling and stacking on the fly as I do in my video.


As Tamariz noted in Mnemonica.
Last edited by mrgoat on May 31st, 2009, 6:12 am, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: typo

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 31st, 2009, 10:07 am

mrgoat wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:makes the triumph shuffle (in my opinion) great for culling and stacking deep - and culling and stacking on the fly as I do in my video.


As Tamariz noted in Mnemonica.


Sorry - never read Mnemonica. But would agree about the unique features of using the triumph shuffle.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 31st, 2009, 10:21 am

No, I didn't think you had, that's why I copied out the section that refers to your idea.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 31st, 2009, 10:42 am

Is what your saying? Out of all the magic books written on cards only one mentions the useful false shuffle called triumph and gives a unique way to use it other than the way that it was published in the stars of magic?

I would find that very interesting. Because I find the triumph shuffle very useful and wrote a whole book about it that I am adding to - like a new routine idea to cull stack the four aces and give one or two other players good cards too.

For me - it is a great riffle shuffle and in my opinion it has it's place in riffle shuffle work in magic.

And if I may add my idea is to use the shuffle as a culling and stacking idea - not a single cards control to the top - although I think that your right and it might be or could also be used as such - and perhaps place a card at a given number from the top - to produce it as a spelling method - perhaps?

Although it just might be faster to just use the jog shuffle - perhaps?

Thanks for the idea.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby mrgoat » May 31st, 2009, 11:10 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:Is what your saying out of all the magic books written on cards only one mentions the useful false shuffle called triumph and gives a unique way to use it other than the way that it was published in the stars of magic?


No. What I am saying is that Tamariz refers to your idea in his book Mnemonica.

If I was saying that out of all the magic books on cards only one mentions Triumph in a manner not described by Vernon I would have written that. Instead I wrote "No, I didn't think you had, that's why I copied out the section that refers to your idea. "

I can totally see where the ambiguity was in what I put and thank you for letting me clear it up.

Cheers!

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby John Lovick » May 31st, 2009, 2:02 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote: If I may add Houdini I think had very little formal school education. A lot of kids in show business in those days had little formal school education because their parents were on the road so much in those days. Some of the show business kids got home schooled.

Glenn, what are you talking about? Houdini was not a "show business kid". His father was a rabbi and his mother had no career. He did not spend time with his parents "on the road" because his parents weren't on the road. He we had a normal public school education (mostly in New York).

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 31st, 2009, 2:53 pm

John Lovick wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote: If I may add Houdini I think had very little formal school education.

He we had a normal public school education (mostly in New York).

Houdini - he we - had a normal public school education?

What are you trying to say? That Houdini had a very structured and formal school education?

According to a book on the History of magic I have here in front of me. It talks about Houdini doing a backyard circus show in a friends back yard at the age of nine. Three years later he ran away from home (age 12). The book also talks about impoverish parents - and shining shoes and selling papers.

Is that the normal public school education of young Houdini you were talking about?

I think I read - it may be in the book about Gus Rapp that Rapp and Houdini might have known each other as kids and sold papers at the same time in New York.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Jim Maloney » May 31st, 2009, 4:19 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:According to a book on the History of magic I have here in front of me. It talks about Houdini doing a backyard circus show in a friends back yard at the age of nine. Three years later he ran away from home (age 12). The book also talks about impoverish parents - and shining shoes and selling papers.

Is that the normal public school education of young Houdini you were talking about?

Yes, that is a normal public school education for that time period. It wasn't until 1918 that every state in the US required children to complete elementary school.

Nate Leipzig began working for an optician when he was 12, and the situation was similar for his brothers.

Harpo Marx was the one with an unusual educational background. He was thrown, literally, out of school in the second grade (I believe), and never went back. Groucho was out of school by the time he was 12, although I know he regretted later in life not receiving a more extensive education.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » May 31st, 2009, 8:03 pm

Thanks Jim that was what I was getting at. A lot of entertainers of that day seem to had little formal school education. And turned to the theater to escape - and I would imagine many ran away with the circus so to speak.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Jim Maloney » May 31st, 2009, 11:03 pm

Glenn -- you missed the point. While I gave examples from entertainment (because that was what I know), the fact that they didn't receive anything beyond elementary-level education was not unusual for the time. High school level education was not common in the US until the 1900s.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » June 1st, 2009, 6:16 pm

Thanks Jim but I do not think that I missed the point - I think - that was the point that I was getting at ("that they didn't receive anything beyond elementary-level education was not unusual for the time.").

From what I read and from what Jack and Anne Gwynne told me about Houdini was - he did not have very much formal education.

A lot of entertainers did not have very much formal education. From what I read Blackstone and Dante grew up with little formal school education. How much can be argued however I am in no mood to argue.

A lot of show business kids also did not have a formal school education and many were home schooled while on the road with their parents. The Gwynne family had a teacher that traveled with the act at one time and if I remember right that one of the teachers became an assistant in the act in the early days.

Getting back to Houdini I think that he was a person smart enough to have a ghost writer because he lacked the education and wanted his projects published. I think that he may have had an agenda in doing so because I think that his publishing efforts were part of his promotion.

In my opinion Houdini did magic as a business and to publish books was part of his business. And I also don't think that having a ghost writer is a bad business idea that seemed to work for him.

Only my opinion...

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby David Ben » June 2nd, 2009, 5:55 pm

Glenn has asked to see other options for riffle culling three of a kind "on the fly". I am posting here an alternate take. The film was shot in high definition by Daniel Zuckerbrot - director of the "Spirit of Magic". I am using the footage as part of a more detailed presentation I am making to a group in a couple of weeks. As I use the Stevens Cull to riffle stack three of a kind "on the fly", I thought that some might be interested in seeing one aspect of the technique in this thread. Basically all of the technique that I'm using in this sequence - including the shift - comes out of Revelation.

Here is the link, user name and password that you require to view the sequence.

http://www.davidben.com/dbvwk/ap-dem.html
User: genii
PW: f6r60u8

There is no voice over or music on the track as I will be doing my commentary live much as I did at the IBM-SAM convention a year ago.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Darryl Harris » June 2nd, 2009, 6:05 pm

That was VERY elegant.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 2nd, 2009, 6:40 pm

Damn. Wish I could do that. Nice that it's done on a hard table.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Jim Martin » June 2nd, 2009, 8:37 pm

Bravo David - beautiful.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Brad Henderson » June 2nd, 2009, 9:16 pm

Glenn begins telling us why David didn't fulfill the challenge in three . . .two . . .

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 2nd, 2009, 10:02 pm

... one.

Brad, please don't provoke Glenn. He seems quite able to provoke himself.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Brad Henderson » June 2nd, 2009, 10:15 pm

Gee Shucks, Unca Richard, I was just trying to have some fun.

I'm sworry.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 2nd, 2009, 11:12 pm

Brad, you've been spending too much time on Splash Moutain.
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby John M. Dale » June 2nd, 2009, 11:48 pm

Wow! Poetry in motion. I bow to you, Mr. Ben,

JMD

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Dustin Stinett » June 3rd, 2009, 2:19 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:... one...

"...singular sensation. Every little step he takes. One thrilling combination. Every move that he makes."

(Sorry; couldn't help myself.)

Nicely done Mr. Ben.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby El Mystico » June 3rd, 2009, 2:20 am

Beautiful. thanks for posting.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Tortuga » June 3rd, 2009, 10:28 am

David, that was one of the best examples of the Steven's Cull that I have witnessed. The actual shuffling technique was so much better than the tripe that one usually sees, bending the cards too much to obviously see the indices--along with an obvious break in rhythm and dropping of blocks, etc.

That was indeed an elegant handling and the 'shift' would fly by most anyone, even when you mention that you did one.

Good stuff!
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » June 3rd, 2009, 11:52 am

What an absolute joy to view this piece of fine art from somebody who knows what they're doing (Mr. Ben).

After viewing the video-trash that populated a large part of this thread, it's refreshing to be reminded that some folks do know what they're talking about, and that some videos accurately reflect what a true professional can accomplish with a combination of practical study, personal knowledge and consummate skill.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Bob Coyne » June 3rd, 2009, 1:41 pm

I have to disagree with the reaction to David Ben's demo. The shuffling looks too slow and careful -- not very natural or fluid. I realize that in performance that could be covered with talk and misdirection, but as presented it seemed very obvious to me.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 3rd, 2009, 2:52 pm

I disagree entirely. It looks utterly natural and fluid--not hurried, not too careful, not absurdly precise the way most strip-outs and push-throughs look (like a mathematician fiddling with a deck of cards).
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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Kent Gunn » June 3rd, 2009, 4:31 pm

Mr. Coyne,

How would you compare Mr. Ben's demonstration to that of Mr. Bishop?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » June 3rd, 2009, 8:17 pm

covered with talk and misdirection indeed......as if it's nothing more than a common card trick?

Did you even understand what it was you were watching?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Bob Coyne » June 3rd, 2009, 8:48 pm

Roger M. wrote:covered with talk and misdirection indeed......as if it's nothing more than a common card trick?

Did you even understand what it was you were watching?


Please spare me the snide comments. And yes, I know what I was watching. That was the essence of my comment. I would have preferred not to have understood it.

I'm not saying it was bad or anything, just that it was quite obvious to me as presented and that greater speed and less careful manner and/or some misdirection would make it more deceptive. I was surprised no one had pointed that out, and I thought a different point of view would be worth noting. No disrespect to Mr. Ben intended.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Mark Collier » June 3rd, 2009, 9:11 pm

I, too, think your criticism is unfair.

The camera was on a close-up of his hands for the entire clip. You couldn't see his eyes. You couldn't judge his demeanor. Of course there is no misdirection with a close-up shot. It was a display of (very good) technique taken out of context.

If you had been in the room, even sitting at the table, and seeing the whole picture, I think you would have had a different experience.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Bob Coyne » June 3rd, 2009, 9:55 pm

Mark Collier wrote:I, too, think your criticism is unfair.

The camera was on a close-up of his hands for the entire clip. You couldn't see his eyes. You couldn't judge his demeanor. Of course there is no misdirection with a close-up shot. It was a display of (very good) technique taken out of context.

If you had been in the room, even sitting at the table, and seeing the whole picture, I think you would have had a different experience.



Yes, it's hard to judge stuff out of context with only a close-up camera angle -- that's why I added the caveat about misdirection. Still, I think it was too slow and careful compared to regular riffle shuffling. I'm sure if I saw shuffling with that sort of pattern of hesitation and speed it would stick out with all but the strongest misdirection. Of course there's a lot of variation in different people's sensitivity to such things, and perhaps for most laymen it would be perfectly deceptive. I was just giving my reaction to it. btw, I thought the table shift (with nice misdirection and timing of throwing in the chip) was excellent and deceptive.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » June 3rd, 2009, 11:33 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:And yes, I know what I was watching.


Tell us in detailed terms how you'd improve it.

Please be technical, and don't forget to support your previous statements with comments on how your method is better, smoother, quicker, and closer to meeting your standards.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Bob Coyne » June 4th, 2009, 12:04 am

Roger M. wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:And yes, I know what I was watching.


Tell us in detailed terms how you'd improve it.

Please be technical, and don't forget to support your previous statements with comments on how your method is better, smoother, quicker, and closer to meeting your standards.


I didn't say I could improve it -- that wasn't my point. All I said is that I didn't find it very deceptive as presented, and I gave some reasons why, which I stand by. In fact, it might just be that the inherent difficulty and constraints of the technique make it impossible to do deceptively enough to satisfy me. This is taking nothing away from David Ben's skill. I'm only talking about the end result. Ok?

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Roger M. » June 4th, 2009, 1:16 am

Thanks for putting your previous posts on the topic into the proper context with your answer.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Bob Coyne » June 4th, 2009, 9:02 am

Just an update on this...I showed the clip to my kids and wife and they thought it looked like normal shuffling. The tell-tale cues that were obvious to me weren't apparent to them. I have a feeling, however, that laymen who are card players and able to do table riffle shuffles themselves would notice the hesitation etc. But I certainly could be wrong about that too.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » June 4th, 2009, 9:24 am

Sorry to say - I got all excited as this thread was just now taking off with Mr. Ben's video - but my computer won't play it so I can't watch it.

Thanks for posting it anyway Mr. Ben from what other's have said it must be fine work.

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Ian Kendall » June 4th, 2009, 9:35 am

Glenn - I had the same problem. Install Quicktime 7 or above and all will be revealed.

Take care, Ian

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Re: Riffle Shuffle Work Using The Triumph Shuffle

Postby Glenn Bishop » June 5th, 2009, 9:58 am

Roger M. wrote:What an absolute joy to view this piece of fine art from somebody who knows what they're doing (Mr. Ben).

After viewing the video-trash that populated a large part of this thread, it's refreshing to be reminded that some folks do know what they're talking about, and that some videos accurately reflect what a true professional can accomplish with a combination of practical study, personal knowledge and consummate skill.


Ok Roger lets talk about the word "professional". Are you a professional magician? Or are you a professional card cheat? I looked at your profile and all that it says is that you like card magic - and your favorite magician is Ed Marlo.

If I may add since you used the word professional and video-trash on what I assume is my video. I would like to add that I have used the jog shuffle work in my close up night club and bar work for about 25 years. It has been tested and audience tested over and over again.

And if I may add and I learned this from the older professionals like Jack Pyle, Billy Bishop and Jay Marshall that it takes a combination of practical study, personal knowledge and consummate skill and the EXPERIENCE of performing those techniques UNDER FIRE at those shows (thousands of times over the years) to really know if they work or not. And since I have been performing for more than 25 years - well then I will let you figure it out.

Now if your talking about the video of my triumph shuffle work. That has been admired by my Dad - who told me not to show it to anyone as he wanted to publish it. Now that may not seem like a big deal to a magician that has never heard of Billy Bishop but since he was the magician that showed me the triumph shuffle in the first place - and he used the triumph shuffle all his life - and the magician that showed him was Dai Vernon - well - I will let you figure it out.

And if I may add I use the triumph shuffle in my work - because it works - and is less top heavy than other methods that I have come across so far.

From where I come from growing up around magicians like Jack Pyle, Jay Marshall, etc. Doing magic in a less technical - so the magician can keep his mind on the entertainment and entertaining the audience - as long as it works - is usually the way the professional magicians use. And having been a professional magician for all of my adult life - that is the way that I choose to do things.

And if I may add - the video's were only a short demonstration of what can be done with the triumph shuffle.

They were not put up to "entertain" only to show what "can be done" with the triumph shuffle.

So - since they acomplished the goal of showing what can be done that is all that matters to me.

And being a "professional" I will refrain from responding to the little digs like video-trash in the way that others seem to like to post their little digs in comments that have been a part of this and other threads.


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