Favourite Pass/card control

[flynn]

Where is the best place for the left first finger when you guys do the pass? I've been working on the pass for couple years now and I use to use the finger placements described in Erdnase which is at the top with the 2nd and 3rd fingers. But know I'll have it in the break same as the pinky. I've seen some have the first finger at the bottom of the deck (second and third fingers at the top of the deck like most passes I've seen) and pinky at the break. I execute faster with the first and pinky at the break but have to cover more with the right hand with distractions and misdirections. And as for the bluff bluff pass I remember last spring the owner of the dealer out here telling me Daryl was using it in lectures, didnt say wether he came up with the idea though. Probably not. As for my favorite control its the convincing till I master the Pass. I also use it at least once in my AC routine.

[Richard Kaufman]

The most important point regarding the left first finger when you do any style of Classic Pass is to keep it from shooting straight out. Vernon grabbed my first finger (I've never seen anyone's hand move that fast) and said, "What's this? What's this?" I was mortified, but you can bet your ass I've kept my damn finger out of sight since then.

Most folks keep the first finger beside the second finger at the right long side of the deck. This is not easy to do.

One advantage of my Half Jiggle Pass is that the outward motion of the half of the deck carried forward by the right hand covers my left first finger as it shoots out. :)

The only time the first finger should be curled under the deck is if you are doing a Riffle Pass. Otherwise it creates too much upward pressure and gums up the works.

[flynn]

I see what you mean about keeping your first finger out of site I need to work on that. I assumed the action of my left fingers were undercover with my right hand and with the tilting action, but I can see my finger locking around.

[Kent Gunn]

I cannot do a decent classic pass.

I do use Cervon's free turn, a Hermann turnover and a wacky top card cover pass, referred to by no one but me, as the partial pass. If you bump into me . . . ask. It has flown by a well-posted card dude or three.

I tend to arrange routines around bottom controls.

Earick's take on the convincing control is the schnizzle. I have added that most recently to this Gunn's aresenal.

If you are truly interested in card magic: Get the Earick book. If you don't know the title, go Google it. Stop reading this thread, go away, go get the Minch book who's title I can't remember . . .

Dammit . . .

By Forces Unseen. Jeez Louise!

[flynn]

I watched closely Paul Wilson and Larry Jennings doing passes on video today. Paul Wilson does his like he's ditched all the methods suggested by books. His left thumb breaks contact with the deck and with the right index finger applying pressure from on top. Everythings exposed it seems, like there's little cover. He does it quick though and looked pretty impressive when I first saw it. He uses it in an AC routine where a face up card comes to the top. It looks pretty magical drawing applauses. Larry Jennings pass was pretty much textbook. Also he had the deck gripped pretty close into his left palm thats why it looks pretty awesome.

[Leonard Hevia]

Hi Kent--Did you learn Cervon's Free Turn Pass from his book? Is it described in one his two videos? Learning it from his text Ultra-Cervon is tough...

[Kent Gunn]

Nope,

I learned it from Hank Miller. Read through the discussion in Ultra. I do it differently, 'cuz that's the way it was shown to me.

Hank Miller - Also does the Miller shuffle pretty darned well.

I learned the Hermann from Jack Merlin's And a Pack of Cards. The write-up in the Merlin book is s p a r s e ! I like the handling tips of Dingle's in Almanac bestest!

KG

[PMS]

I will admit that I can do a convincing pass;however, the CUT PASS I learned from the Kaufmann DVD has worked very well for me. I simply say, "Most magicians could simply cut right to your card.....I didn't say I could..I said most..." then I proceed on accordingly like "most magicians would never shuffle the cards, but then again...."

[Richard Kaufman]

You can't tell what anyone's Pass really looks like from watching it on video (unless it's a Herrmann Pass or something like the Free-Turn Pass, which is a Side-Steal of half the deck masquerading as a Pass). I know, because having to make my own video on the Pass, I discovered how difficult it is to place the camera in a position that replicates the spectator's eye.

[espermachine]

The best explanation for the Classic Pass I ever read was by written by Charlie Miller in one of his Magicana columns (Genii, March 1971, pages 331-333). Miller dissects the moves piece by piece in perfect clarity. With regards to the troublesome left index finger, there was one paragraph in particular where I thought: "Ahh, that's what I've been doing wrong..."

I think Vernon covers similar territory in Revelation.

[Mark.Lewis]

I learned the Pass in ten minutes and could do it quite well after that time. I remember thinking that I couldn't possibly have learned it because all the books I read said that it was supposed to take months to master. But I had indeed mastered it.

I learned it from a very old book from the late nineteenth century. It must have been a blooody good description. I can't swear to it but I think the book was called "Tricks with Cards" by Charles Roberts.

Proof that the best stuff is indeed from before 1954.

As for the bluff, bluff pass I have been doing that for donkey's years. I first learned it from Bobby Bernard at a lecture he gave. It must have been one of the few lectures I actually paid attention to.

[Glenn Bishop]

As I remember back in the old days of Bishops Magic shop - I asked Buddy Farnan to show me his pass. He turned to my Mom and said - Hi babe new in town (rimshot).

Later he showed me the turn over pass that is in this video and I have used it ever since.

The side steal in this video was shown to me by my Dad as the Bold Side Steal - the guy that showed my dad how to do this great move was Rolland Hamblen.

The Cardini shift was worked out by me as a simplified way of doing the Cardini shift that was in Greater magic. I also worked out the one handed second - and used it often instead of a top change using the straddle grip.

Enjoy!


http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... omdeal.wmv

[Kent Gunn]

Glenn,

That link led me to a bottom dealing demo. No side steal, no turnover pass.

Is there another video?

KG

[Glenn Bishop]

Here is the right link to the turn over pass that is in this video and I have used it ever since.

The side steal in this video was shown to me by my Dad as the Bold Side Steal - the guy that showed my dad how to do this great move was Rolland Hamblen.

The Cardini shift was worked out by me as a simplified way of doing the Cardini shift that was in Greater magic. I also worked out the one handed second - and used it often instead of a top change using the straddle grip.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... dmoves.wmv

The video is very old and nothing compared to my triumph shuffle work and my triple duke triumph - where I cull and stack three different hands of four of a kind for a five handed game of draw poker using the triumph shuffle.

For me that is one of the coolest things.

Just my opinion.

[mrgoat]

Here is the right link to the turn over pass that is in this video and I have used it ever since.

http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennb ... dmoves.wmv

Is this like your version of the triumph shuffle where you expose the method?

[Philippe Billot]

I learned it from a very old book from the late nineteenth century. It must have been a blooody good description. I can't swear to it but I think the book was called "Tricks with Cards" by Charles Roberts.

Proof that the best stuff is indeed from before 1954.

I'm very desappointed because you have made a mistake.
Tricks with Cards by Charles Roberts was published in 1921 by Foulsham & Co, LONDON, not at the end of the nineteenth century.

In this case, how can I believe you when you write :"Proof that the best stuff is indeed from before 1954" ?

[Glenn Bishop]

Oh my goodness I do believe that goat man is trying to troll me about my wonderful handling of the Triumph shuffle. I also believe that any skilled magician - skilled at card magic techniques that is. Can easily see that the shuffle can be adapted to many different handlings and shade added to make the move more technical.

I am reminded of the movie short that came with the movie DVD I got over Christmas of the Cincinnati kid staring Steve McQueen. This had the late and great Jay Ose do the card handling in the move. And there was a movie advertising short using Jay Ose done to advertise the film called The Cincinnati kid plays according to Hoyle.

In this movie short he shuffles the cards on the table and does a two shuffle push through using a closed shuffle. I do believe that this closed shuffle technique can be adapted to the triumph shuffle - when using it for culling and stacking.

Since this goat person doesnt seem to know anything about this subject matter and I do believe he is just trolling for attention again in my opinion. I shall stop talking about my wonderful triumph shuffle technique and change the conversation to the table pass.

Here are two table passes or shifts that I often use - based off the color change. I like both of them and use them often in my gambling routines to shift the cut.


http://www.mrhypnotist.org/video/glennbishopshift.wmv

Just my opinion.

[Richard Kaufman]

Jay Ose knew next to nothing about gambling and he turned to Tony Giorgio for all of the information he needed for his technical work in The Cincinnnati Kid.

[Glenn Bishop]

Sorry that is not what I heard. I heard that Jay Ose was very skilled with a deck of cards.

[Mark.Lewis]

I learned it from a very old book from the late nineteenth century. It must have been a blooody good description. I can't swear to it but I think the book was called "Tricks with Cards" by Charles Roberts.

Proof that the best stuff is indeed from before 1954.

I'm very desappointed because you have made a mistake.
Tricks with Cards by Charles Roberts was published in 1921 by Foulsham & Co, LONDON, not at the end of the nineteenth century.

In this case, how can I believe you when you write :"Proof that the best stuff is indeed from before 1954" ?

You, sir, are a Frenchman and I would advise you to remember what happened at Waterloo. You slipped up there too. May I remind you that I am MARK LEWIS and by dint of such cannot possibly be wrong. I have made contact with Mr Roberts in the spirit world and he assures me that although his book was indeed published in 1921 he wrote it in the late nineteenth century.Things were very slow paced in those days.

And yes. The best stuff does come from before 1954. I never read books written after that date. In any event the stuff in modern books is just old stuff rehashed. And usually ruined by such rehashes. As Al Baker once said, "many a good trick has been killed by improvement"

[Kent Gunn]

Mark,

Why haven't you reviewed your pal's card work for us?

I was thinking you might have a pointer or two, for your friend. Or does Glenn have the real work on:

Turnover passes, the SWE shift, side steals and the like?

KG

[Mark.Lewis]

Kent. Glenn is not my "pal" I have never met the man. However I felt that I had to defend him when you were all bullying him.
I don't like "reviewing" people and I now wish I hadn't spoken out on the Shawn Farquahar thread. I would never take a job at a magic magazine reviewing books, DVDs, or products on the grounds that I have enough enemies as it is. That must be a hell of a tough job and a great way to upset people.

Besides I already saw a video of Glenn performing for real people and it seemed very good to me. I have no particular interest in getting enthusiastic about sleights or moves any more. My boyhood days are long since over. Tell me how to manipulate the PEOPLE and you have my attention. I learned how to manipulate the cards a long time ago.

[Glenn Bishop]

To answer your question Kent. Yes - I do have the real work (for me) on the pass - side steal - Cardini shift - triumph shuffle culling and stacking and every other move I do in my performance work. However on most of the video that I choose to put at my web site the video as I have said many times to many dence hard headed magicians over the years. That the videos are out of context. And nothing more than demonstration videos that I have put on my site for one reason or another.

The point is - all the moves I do work for me under fire in front of an audience when I do shows. And to put this bluntly - they have to work. And that is the big difference and is in my opinion what separates the men from the boys - or paying the bills or having to get some kind of a day job.

So whatever magicians say about them - I could not care a less about it.

Just my opinion.

[mrgoat]

Oh my goodness I do believe that goat man is trying to troll me about my wonderful handling of the Triumph shuffle.

Glenn. In your version of the triumph shuffle, you expose the fact that the cards are pushed through.

This was well discussed in the 230923092 page thread about it.

Anyone watching can see, that rather than decide to hide the work, you tip it to the spec.

I am sure you cover this with masterful misdirection. I've seen your tape in the close up gallery at the Castle.

I assumed this expose of the turnover pass was in the same vein? You are deliberately showing the audience the workings of the move, yet they do not notice because of your masterful misdirection.

Am I wrong?

there seriously is no trolling here. Everyone could see you push through the cards in your shuffling routine, so I assumed you were doing something similar here?

Be great to see it with a real audience - like your Castle tape.

I think people don't realise how effective a badly executed pass can be when couple with the right misdirection. They don't notice the get ready. They don't notice the pass. They don't notice the clean up. Because they are too engaged in your charming performance. Like at the Castle.

I've only ever performed impromptu at the castle. In the museum, or the pub. Never paid for proper show like you've done. I am jealous of your chops. I mean, if I tried to pull off a pass like you do in this video my audience would wet themselves laughing. I admire you because you can get away with such dreadful technique whilst under fire.

Huzzah.

[Mark.Lewis]

I just looked at the table shifts and I see absolutely nothing wrong with them. They would easily fool a layman. I have no idea what the complaint is.

[Kent Gunn]

Glenn,

I'm glad you've found a way to make a living as a magician. I don't think your skills at self-assessment would play out very well in the real world.

If your versions of those sleights are the real work, you're really deluded. Don't worry, I'm here to help.

For help with your awful side steal. (you really have to motivate putting your hand over the deck to replace the card dammit) Go to this website.

http://www.michaelclose.com/index.php?m ... ucts_id=13

There's a fellow there who actually understands how the sleight should be done. I found a download for you. I remember all about your dyslexia. It is easier for some to learn from video.

There has been a huge amount of work done on the Turnover Pass. You should become more conversant with that work. Steves Youell and Dobson both have significant work on this sleight. I'm certain a modicum of research would hook you up. If you like I'd put you in contact with them myself. Perhaps I could arrange personal instruction.

Other than the obvious angles you shot the other work at, you're probably not spilling the beans as you perform them for drunks and the mentally deficient. We'll have to work on those another day. But, and I'm serious here, learn a decent tabled full-deck false shuffle. Close's stuff on the side steal would do wonders for your amateurish attempts. Your pass is just awful.

For the rest of us, Glenn, please, since you're out there with real people, don't make all magicians look bad.

If you'd like to critique my work, as you have in the past, please pick on my day job. Oh . . . that's right, sorry, you probably don't know [censored] about optical physics, nevermind.

KG

[Mark.Lewis]

I have now looked at the Turnover Pass link and have seen Glenn do it along with other sleights. Again I have no idea what the goat is talking about. He seems to do them pretty well. I do the turnover pass myself ( the Paul Le Paul version) so I know what I am talking about.

I am no sleight of hand fanatic but I can do more than most people so I feel reasonably qualified to comment. Everything seems well executed to me and I have no doubt the moves would accomplish their main purpose of deceiving laymen.

I have no idea why Glenn posts this stuff on here when he knows he is going to be met with such negativity from people who probably do three shows a year. And that is a VERY good year.

[James Munton]

If anyone is interested in learning the pass (and its variants), I highly recommend Ian Kendall's new ebook available at http://www.virtualmagicshow.com/shop

In my opinion, Ian is one of the very best teachers of magic I have ever seen. This new work is a wonderful combination of text and video that breaks down the components of the pass in a way that makes it extremely easy to learn.

I haven't seen Richard's video, so I cannot compare them. I am sure Richard's video is very good, too. But I hope he doesn't mind me sharing my opinion of Ian's excellent ebook.

And for ten quid, it is an absolute bargain!

Best,
James

[Mark.Lewis]

I just looked AGAIN at the Side Steal clip because of Kent's comments to see if I have missed anything. I haven't. He does it as well as he needs to do it. Again I talk from experience. I do the bloody side steal myself. I am beginning to wonder if this is all a great big bloody wind up.

Again I see nothing wrong with the way he is doing his sleights. Maybe I am blind or something. All I can tell you is that I have been doing card tricks for over 50 years. I probably know as much about entertaining with them as anyone here. And I am telling you now that I can't see a damn thing wrong with his technique.

Incidentally I think the best description of the side steal is the one described by Ganson in Cy Endfield's Entertaining Card Magic. It is the version I use.

[Richard Kaufman]

I don't even sell my two videos: the rights belong to Meir Yedid. I could care less if you recommend Ian's ebook!

I never know if anything I've written (or made a video of) is any good until other people express their opinions. You're so close to the material when it comes out that you really can't tell--and once you've finished a project, you usually don't go back and look at it again.

[Glenn Bishop]

I see that Kent seems to be trolling again. I could come up with a rather long post but I would rather move back to the conversation on the Pass. I have seen one of Richards videos on the pass and I thought it was very good.

Just my opinion.

[Kent Gunn]

I've always thought I was more Orc than Troll. Glenn's right though. I'm going to go crawl back under my bridge. I'll be lurking though.

I can't do a decent table shift either. At least I know it.

Best work on the pass, is to be found within your own hands.

KG

[Jonathan Townsend]

I'm puzzled by card handling that invites attention right before one does a sleight.

[Ian Kendall]

Richard said

I could care less if you recommend Ian's ebook

Aw, bless! :D

And thanks to James. I remember watching Richard's Pass video at Paul Wilson's house, and stepping frame by frame to catch the moment of the half jiggle pass. It was inspirational at the time.

For what it's worth, in the Work book on the various passes, the five handlings are those that I use in the real world (whatever _that_ is) which I have broken down into their parts to make the learning a wee bit simpler.

Take care, Ian

[Glenn Bishop]

I'm puzzled by card handling that invites attention right before one does a sleight.

I am often puzzled by most of your posts. However since this is a rare post when I can understand what you are talking about I shall attempt to answer your question.

I have seen this often in magic as some magicians do moves two different ways - some for different reasons.

When showing a move - the move becomes the star - and it is often easy to spot tells.

When showing a routine the move is shown often with tells because it might make the move easy to explain in the context of the routine.

When performing the routine - the magician is the star and the routine is only the excuse for getting up and having fun and entertaining the people. And the move - should have less or no tells because it is only a means to an end - the move is secondary - and used to get from point A to Point B - or get to the end climax of the magic trick.

In many of the video's that I have posted at my web site. I video taped them with tells. And I am just demonstrating moves on video for whatever reason I had at the time.

I use the turn over pass several ways in close up magic. Often as a color change.

Just my opinion.

[Glenn Bishop]

If you'd like to critique my work, as you have in the past,

I think that you may be mistaken Kent because I have never critiqued your work. I may have watched it and said something nice about it. But to critique - nope I have never done that to any magician video on the web.

Just my opinion.

[mrgoat]

If you'd like to critique my work, as you have in the past,

I think that you may be mistaken Kent because I have never critiqued your work. I may have watched it and said something nice about it. But to critique - nope I have never done that to any magician video on the web.

Just my opinion.

Mr Bishop

The word critique means to offer a review/an opinion on something. It can be either positive or negative.

Hope that helps.

Damian

[Mark.Lewis]

Leave Glenn alone. There is nothing whatever wrong with his technique and I think you all know that quite well.

[mrgoat]

Leave Glenn alone. There is nothing whatever wrong with his technique and I think you all know that quite well.

It's appalling. The deck is being held in the most unnatural position. The set up is telegraphed. The move can be SEEN.

It's as amusing as his triumph exposure video.

However, you pretending to like it is amusing.

[Mark.Lewis]

Rubbish. Since I happen to be the best and most entertaining card magician (and have been since I was sixteen years old) in the world I should know.

You are seeing the whole thing out of context. There is always going to be some minor fault when you just see a clip of the move alone. In actual performance I am quite sure nobody sees a bloody thing.

The naysayers don't work for real people . Glenn does. Therefore it is HE that makes the rules where this is concerned. I really don't know why he shares this stuff with amateurs when he knows it is going to be picked to pieces. Nobody here is going to book him so to me there is no point to it.