History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
PapaG
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History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby PapaG » November 5th, 2008, 11:50 pm

For those of you who have The Castle Notebooks Volume 3, doesn't Cervon's description of the Vernon Double Lift 6/2/66 (page 20) predate the Nash Knock-Out Double lift and other variants?

Gordolini
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Gordolini » November 6th, 2008, 9:48 pm

The Cervon description noted that there is no get ready which is also pointed out by Minch in the book Ever So Sleightly on the Nash knock out double lift, page 17, copyright 1975. From the Nash book: The basic idea was arrived at in a session between Martin and Dick Zimmerman. The double lift descriptions in both books include a note on making the cards snap as the double is turned face up. Simple speculation, but could there have been a Vernon to Zimmerman to Nash influence?

PapaG
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby PapaG » November 6th, 2008, 9:51 pm

They're one and the same, are they not?

Gordolini
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Gordolini » November 6th, 2008, 9:55 pm

Agree

Barry Shifrin
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Barry Shifrin » November 7th, 2008, 4:04 pm

There is a small difference in the finger positions of the "Vernon Double Lift" described by Cervon and the "Knock Out Double Lift" described by Nash.

Nash uses the third finger to contact the upper right corner of the pushed off cards and the first and second finger to contact the top of the cards. The lift written up by Cervon uses the second finger to contact to contact the upper right corner of the pushed off cards.

That being said, they are essentially the same.

Harvey Rosenthal
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Harvey Rosenthal » November 7th, 2008, 11:16 pm

[font:Comic Sans MS]Gentlemen,

In SLEIGHT UNSEEN, Part Three of The Professional Card Technique of Martin A. Nash published in 1979, I played a major role in supplying credits for the material contained in the first two volumes of the superb Nash trilogy.

On page 442 it is written with respect to THE KNOCK-OUT DOUBLE LIFT: "I understand that England's Roy Walton has independently developed a similar Double Lift stemming from a Second Deal Push-Off. Roy tells me, he in turn was taught the basic concept when he was fifteen by Hugh Scott, who had used it for most of his life. Neither man's handling has been published, a prime example of the secreted innovator cul-de-sac[/font]."


[font:Comic Sans MS]When I was Roy Walton's house-guest for a week in August of 1969 he demonstrated and taught me the aforementioned Double Lift Technique that I still use to this day.

As an aside, I should mention that in 1969 Roy was 37. Therefore he was 15 years old in 1947. Hugh Scott had been doing the move many decades before that and most likely before Vernon came up with the idea. Just a guess on my part. Further conjecture...perhaps Vernon learned the technique from Hugh Scott or more likely Roy Walton who he met when he visited England in the late 1950s-early 1960s.

I forgot to mention that the late great cardman, Jack Birnman who passed away in 1997 used a virtually identical technique for more than 40 years that he came up with independently.

Harv[/font]ey

El Mystico
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby El Mystico » November 8th, 2008, 4:20 am

I think it is worth bearing in mind that theese were Cervon's notebooks, intended for his own use, not for publication. His emphasis is on recording the tricks and techniques, not their origins. elsewhere in the Notebooks he describes one of Fred Robinson's passes, and attributes it to Vernon; Vernon probably showed it to him.

PapaG
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby PapaG » November 8th, 2008, 6:44 am

Slightly off-topic, I wish Stephen Minch would reprint the Nash trilogy in one collected volume.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 8th, 2008, 11:10 am

Minch was not the publisher and doesn't own the rights to the Nash books. They were published by Mickey Hades, and his son Brian has been promising to reprint them for years. No news there.

There are many items in the Cervon Castle Notes that are either not credited at all, or miscredited. Bruce didn't put attributions on many of the items when he recorded them. Later on he went back and put initials next to many of the items, but this was done years later.
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PapaG
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby PapaG » November 8th, 2008, 11:47 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Minch was not the publisher and doesn't own the rights to the Nash books. They were published by Mickey Hades, and his son Brian has been promising to reprint them for years. No news there.


Over the last few years I've emailed them several times about the possibility of a reprint, never had any replies. I think that it was an idea of Stephen Minch's to try to get the rights to print them as a single volume. I assume he's had the same luck as me.

So all the credits in The Castle Notebooks should be taken with a pinch of salt? I assumed that the double-lift credit was made more credible by appearing almost a decade before the Nash book was published. Obviously the nature of these books makes accurate accreditation very difficult.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 8th, 2008, 1:32 pm

Cervon had his own agenda with crediting. Some of the material credited to Vernon might be Jennings', or collaborations with Jennings. Things credited to Cervon might be Vernon's or Jennings'. Things credited to Vernon might simply be things Vernon showed to Cervon which other people had showed to Vernon.
And then there are all the items that have no attribution at all. The Notebooks should never have been published "as is."
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Terry
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Terry » November 9th, 2008, 5:07 pm

PapaG wrote:Over the last few years I've emailed them several times about the possibility of a reprint, never had any replies. I think that it was an idea of Stephen Minch's to try to get the rights to print them as a single volume. I assume he's had the same luck as me.


Last email I received said the original pictures didn't scan well so the photos were being converted to drawings.

Mr. Nash was lecturing in Louisville 3 years ago and said he wanted to rewrite and update them into 1 book.

DrDanny
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby DrDanny » November 9th, 2008, 7:30 pm

Hmmm... I emailed Hades about Nash reprint, and they said they were planning it for this year. Guess I shouldn't get my hope up....

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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby El Mystico » November 10th, 2008, 4:43 am

Richard is right about being cautious over the crediting in the Cervon notebooks - but I'm not sure I agree they shouldn't have been published "as is". You need to use intelligence in making sense of them, that's all. And that can be fun. But you do have to bear in mind that the crediting isnt as rigorous as in, uh, say, The Complete Works of Derek Dingle (sorry, couldn't resist)

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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Darryl Harris » November 10th, 2008, 7:59 am

The notebooks could have been published as Cervon wrote them, but footnotes could have been added with correct(ed), or proper credits, for example.
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El Mystico
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby El Mystico » November 10th, 2008, 8:29 am

Oh, sure - there are lots of things that could have been done. But there aren't many people who could have done a sufficently good job of it; and how long would it have taken? While i'm sure Richard's books on Jennings will be superb, look how long we've had to wait for them. Meanwhile, I'm very happy with the Cervon books, despite their limitations.

Now - if someone is looking to do footnotes and credits - how about the Daley Notebooks? Now there is a project crying out for a team to work on....

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erdnasephile
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby erdnasephile » November 10th, 2008, 9:16 am

All in all, I am glad to have these notebooks available, and I'm grateful to Ms. Cervon and L & L for releasing them. Without them, the material could have been buried and never seen the light of day. They should be lauded for their great work!

With respect to El Mystico, I agree with JIS' review of the Cervon Notebooks in Genii--the current format is somewhat of a missed opportunity in the sense that an annotated typeset edition would have probably been of more use to greater numbers of purchasers.

There is no doubt charm in being able to see the material in situ, and some may relish the notion that they (and they alone) will uncover some long lost nugget by reading between the lines. Others will treasure the pristine record of the originals, and feel that to add commentary would be to distort Mr. Cervon's original work. They have good points in favor of their views.

However, a few of the entries are just indecipherable to my eyes, and while the historical value remains, the practical value isn't there for me for these particular items at this time. I honestly would have rather have waited for the likes of a Patton, Diaconis, Perovich, etc., to have at the material and help interpret the text for mere mortals like myself. It could have been a long (long) time, but good stuff is definately worth the wait.

Therefore, I will eagerly support and purchase the possible companion text Mr. Patton mentions at the end of his introduction to the 3rd book if it comes to fruition. I certainly hope all purchasers of the set will encourage L & L (and the other parties considering this) that such a volume would indeed be well-received.

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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Rick Ruhl » November 10th, 2008, 9:48 am

From what I read in the Introdcution from James Patton, there are plans to produce a book of selective annotations of the Castle Notebooks.

I find the notebooks easy to understand. You can't just read and get it, but you have to sit down and do the moves. I think if Bruce had been born later, he would have been a programmer, as the castle notebooks are not far away from how most programmer write an algorithm to produce the final code.

Maybe that's why I find it easy to comprehend. I've dealt with so many coders over the years who can't even talk in complete sentences and their algorithms would be in less detail than anything in the notebooks.

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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby El Mystico » November 10th, 2008, 9:49 am

I agree - the selective annotations would be useful. But - still glad to have what I've got!

Terry
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby Terry » November 11th, 2008, 7:24 am

From reading some posts, it identifies 2 schools of magicians:

1. The "old school" type who knows how to read and interpret the subject matter. They then strike out on their own to work on the material for themselves.

2. The "DVD" type who want everything finished and polished so they can start performing it tonight without any real work on their part.

There was no hidden agenda concerning the notebooks. If you take the write ups at face value, it appears Mr. Cervon was just trying to record everything he had witnessed on that particular evening and who may have showed it to him. Since the notebooks existed for his personal use, full crediting was not required. Had he chosen to produce these books during his lifetime, I would be willing to bet the proper credits would have been applied.

Without Bruce Cervon being here to personally edit them, I have no interest in another individual trying to interpret them and adding their own "voice".

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erdnasephile
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Re: History Of The Knock-Out Double Lift

Postby erdnasephile » November 11th, 2008, 1:41 pm

While I would agree that the two extremes Terry describes ("old school"/"DVD type") no doubt exist, I would repectfully suggest that it may be a bit of an overcompartmentalization of the true range of magicians in the populace.

For example, some of us bought the notebooks knowing full well what they were and the work required to mine the gold. We don't mind hard work in the slightest, had no expectation of "push button" items, and enjoy reading between the lines of the classic texts, sweating the details, and honing our craft. I suspect that is true of most of the people willing to lay out this much green for these texts. (In fact, it seems the "DVD type" would be the least likely to invest such large sums in books in the first place.)

Nevertheless, as an "old school" persion, I think expert annotations that are clearly demarcated from the work itself can provide a lot of insight. For example, Mr. Ortiz' stellar commentary on Erdnase is a tremendously valuable work, which does not diminish the original text, nor does it mar the historical record.

For what it's worth, based on their published statements, Mr. Swiss and Mr. Kaufman seem to agree at least in part that the material was not presented in the most advantageous way, and they are about as "old school" as it gets. :grin:

Therefore, just because one would have preferred the bonus of annotations does not necessarily mean that one is not willing to invest "real work on their part".

This, of course, does not imply that those who prefer not to hear another "voice" have an any less valid viewpoint--indeed, according to Ms. Cervon's introduction to the second volume, the consensus of Mr. Cervon's inner circle completely disagrees with me and supports Terry's position. I fully respect that--to each their own, and more power to them!

These comments should not be taken as unbecoming complaining regarding the Notebooks--they certainly were not meant that way. As I stated before, I'm pleased and grateful they exist at all and feel privileged to be able to study these legendary works!

P.S.: To the original subject of the thread-- a related technique can be seen in "Secrets Draun from Underground" pg 14, with an interesting addition of a Hamman/Tenkai technique to provide the occasional necessary "out".


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