Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

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Kent Gunn
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Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Kent Gunn » August 8th, 2008, 11:09 am

Some guy wrote this book. I learned a trick from it. I've only been doing this for 30 years. I should be better at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

Anybody ever heard of this guy who wrote the book?

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AJM
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby AJM » August 8th, 2008, 2:26 pm

Nah - never heard of him.

Nice video though Mr G.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Jeff Eline » August 8th, 2008, 7:23 pm

Nice Kent!

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby David Regal » August 8th, 2008, 11:29 pm

Stuart Judah, yes?

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Kent Gunn » August 9th, 2008, 2:25 am

My research team assures me the earliest sequence is Judah's.

In the Kaufman book there's a discussion that Dingle didn't want to include, because it wasn't his. The Walton sequence is in Ibidem. I don't have the Judah text. (Trip to Byron Walker's will get me a look into the archives.) If you know which work it's in, I'd appreciate that information.

My, not very contributory, involvement is. I saw Dingle do it on TV. I worked it out from that. I was in my teens, at the time. I use different sleights in the displays I got from reading the 2nd Ascanio book. I like setting the card on the table. I think the Ascanio stuff helps hide the displacing mechanism better than keeping the cards in one's hands.

I like doing this version of oil and water more than any other I've worked up. It generally gets a good reaction from laymen. I think it goes by poorly posted magicians.


Now I'm rambling, dammit, sorry.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby David Thomas » August 9th, 2008, 8:02 pm

What's the name of this trick I can't remember....I know it's oil and water but waht's official name???

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Joe Pecore » August 9th, 2008, 8:06 pm

From what I've researched, it was originally called "Like seeks Like" http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Oil_and_Water
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 9th, 2008, 11:36 pm

Part of the trick is actually Ricky Jay's--it might, in fact, be that combining all the elements that's Ricky's contribution. That credit was not in the book for reasons too long to go into here. In fact, the routine should not have been in the book since it wasn't Derek's.
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby David Thomas » August 10th, 2008, 12:55 am

I haven't bout this book yet, but I should be getting it in a few weeks. From what I knew, oil and vinegar was the only oil and water in the book, but I don't think this is it (correct me if I'm wrong).

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Joe Pecore » August 10th, 2008, 9:09 am

Sorry, I thought you meant "oil and water" in general. Not this specific version of it.
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby David Thomas » August 10th, 2008, 4:14 pm

I prefer Larry Jennings' oil and water.

Thanks Anyway Joe. ;)

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 10th, 2008, 4:46 pm

Which one? Jennings had several, the best known of which is actually comprised of sequences by Ray Kosby and Dai Vernon (to whom Larry gave credit).
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby David Thomas » August 10th, 2008, 5:02 pm

I'm quite the beginner, and this is the only Jennings oil and water I know of. I learned it from his Dvd, "Thoughts on Cards". "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWsYxAnuqGQ"

Is That the one?

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Kent Gunn » August 11th, 2008, 1:08 am

Richard,

The ramblings of this thread have gotten me lost and I started it. Could you please let me know the know sources for the version of oil and water, called oil and vinegar in the book The Complete Works of Derek Dingle.

Whatever in the heck it is I did in that video deserves a better performance, I know. I'd like to know the routine's originator though, if I am asked, by a magician, when I do the routine.

Kent

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Darryl Harris » August 11th, 2008, 7:45 am

Richard mentions in The Complete Works of Derek Dingle that "Oil & Vinegar," was a combination of an old idea of Stewart JAMES, not Judah, and Roy Walton's Oil & Queens from The Devil's Playthings. If memory serves, the specific James idea was not referenced.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 11th, 2008, 8:46 am

I could have easily been mistaken, just as I was in "Silver Quick" when I referenced an idea belonging to Bob Ostin instead of Bob Read (or vice versa, I really can't remember now). I was relying on Dingle for the credits ... and I can laugh about it now.
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Edwin Corrie » August 11th, 2008, 4:38 pm

The first part of Oil and Vinegar is a refined handling of "Oil and Water" in "The Magic World of Stewart Judah" (1966).

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby magicbean » September 6th, 2008, 11:10 am

Kent,

I saw the same Oil and Water presentation on the Tom Schneider show in the 70's. It was such a memorable effect that it became a favorite.

At that time Dingle had published a a small paperback witten by Harry Lorayne with anotther ball-buster effect called Color Triumphant. Remember that?

Tough stuff for teenagers to digest but what a way to set a foundation for the future.

Those where the days.....

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Philippe Billot » September 6th, 2008, 2:35 pm

Kent Gunn wrote:Some guy wrote this book. I learned a trick from it. I've only been doing this for 30 years. I should be better at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

Anybody ever heard of this guy who wrote the book?


May be I make a mistake but this version with 6 cards, (two three of a kind) was described by Marlo in Ibidem N 15, dec. 1958, page 291. See First Routine.

On introduction, Marlo wrote : "Using 3 Jacks and Tens : an original version, shown to Vernon, Simon, Altman, Schneider in 1951 at New York

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby El Mystico » September 7th, 2008, 3:45 am

I was delighted to see Richard's credit to Ostin above for the last coin in a coins across routine. I'd often wondered where Bob Read had published his handling. Ostin makes far more sense. I guess there are a lot of people out there using Ostin's handling

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Hallas » September 10th, 2008, 11:36 am

Philippe Billot wrote:
Kent Gunn wrote:Some guy wrote this book. I learned a trick from it. I've only been doing this for 30 years. I should be better at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-EiHtd8UxY

Anybody ever heard of this guy who wrote the book?


May be I make a mistake but this version with 6 cards, (two three of a kind) was described by Marlo in Ibidem N 15, dec. 1958, page 291. See First Routine.

On introduction, Marlo wrote : "Using 3 Jacks and Tens : an original version, shown to Vernon, Simon, Altman, Schneider in 1951 at New York


Does this post show how effective your performance was, Kent?

As an aside, I always liked George Blake's idea of using cards from an ESP deck (circles and wavy lines)for the oil and water routines.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Kent Gunn » September 10th, 2008, 11:55 am

Hallas,

I have no idea what your question means.

I choose to answer no.

I am fond of finding the source of a magic trick. I desperately want to know where the stuff I perform comes from. My post did do exactly what I needed it to do. Some of the discourse that led me to my answers didn't meander to this thread.

Now back to your question, "Does this post show how effective your performance was Kent?"

I still pick no as my answer. Do you think my performance was effective?

As to your observation that you like Blake's idea of using ESP cards. I worked in a magic shop when those symbols were the rage. I think the preponderance of them, in that era, has soured me forever. A deck of Bicycles, in pleasant enough company will pass as an everyday item. The ESP symbols will always smack of trick cards to me.

Do you perform a version of oil and water?

I got the honor of having the mighty Mr. Rosenthal review my routine for me. He told me he hated it! I was honored. He did send two full routines to me, one his own construction and done by him. It rocked the house!

I appreciate most the criticism that comes with examples or references to make me better!
Last edited by Kent Gunn on September 10th, 2008, 11:57 am, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: I hate oil and water as a patter theme. Emulsions yuk!

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Hallas » September 10th, 2008, 1:12 pm

Sorry it wasn't so clear, Kent. I was suggesting your presentation was effective because the post I quoted referred to a six card version.

Re:"I worked in a magic shop when those symbols were the rage. I think the preponderance of them, in that era, has soured me forever." I can't argue with that.

I've never been a big fan of the plot, personally, because I've seen so many bad performances of it. Some which go on too long. I'd not say that about the one demonstrated, nor the excellent one I saw Joshua Jay do before a lecture in Reading last week.

Here's one I played with (and have used with smaller cards in the restaurant) but you won't like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuARtUw_K1k

Apart from the type of cards used, my presentation is a bit too slow here.

Best wishes,
Paul.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Kent Gunn » September 10th, 2008, 1:26 pm

Paul,

I like your version. With the Jumbo cards it is especially nice! The water marker kept the location of the water cards crystal clear! Great idea.

Aha, I finally get your reference!!! I'm such a dullard. I forget some folks just will comment, when they don't a bit about the particulars!

I was confused by a question on my cups and balls routine once. A nice enough lad asked me where I'd learned my version of the Mora Twirl Vanish. I don't use that sleight. I swing my wand around a hand that has it's little ball, long gone. I thought I was paying homage to Vernon, with a little whimsy. I never thought anyone would go for it!

I hope others have enough sense to follow your link!!!

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Hallas » September 10th, 2008, 1:48 pm

I don't claim the handling as mine, because it's not. I've been doing it over 20 years on and off but truly am not sure whose it is. In the restaurant, for close up, rather than a glass of water, I have a little wooden marker with wavy lines on I drop onto the water packet every time I turn that pile down, which I feel psychologically blocks people from reaching for the pile. I also start by having the spectator deal the eight cards face down and count them so they are sure exactly how many cards we are dealing with, before showing they are not playing cards.

At the conclusion, even though the cards were handled initially, people can examine them should they wish, dismissing all thought those ESP cards are 'tricky'.

By the way, I searched my library for the Judah book. His version can be found described in "The Magic World of Stewart Judah" on p.53. I had the marketed George Blake version of it when I was about 12 (the only difference was the ESP cards). The Judah routine just has the two unmixes and that's it. It just ends. Seems anti climatic.

Paul.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Kent Gunn » September 10th, 2008, 6:51 pm

Paul,

If you ask the fellows on here, they'll run it down. They'll then run down the antecedents and we'll be back at the original version in Discoverie of Witchcraft, in two or three replies.

I do not have the Magic World of Stewart Judah. The write-up in the big Dingle book as good a place to send anyone who wants to learn it. I will put out an abb (that's an all books bulletin) for the Judah book.

I'll probably stick with the version I do. I have never run into another magician who did the Dingle/Judah/Walton routine. What little I've added is enough to feel it is mine though. I could never publish my handling, it is way too derivative of a way too derivative routine.

I realize many others have better/worse/whatever, routines they prefer. If we all did the same tricks, exactly the same way we'd be hanging out at another forum, eh?

Thank you VERY MUCH for sharing your routine. I will find your store again and get the book Steven recommended so very highly.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Stan Willis » September 13th, 2008, 12:59 pm

My apologies to all for not being able to refer you to the exact previous post in which it was established that the routine in question here Oil and Vinegar actually is a compilation of three contributions of three very well known cardmen.......Stewart Judah; Ricky Jay; and Roy Walton.
The first part of the routine can be traced to Stewart Judah's Oil and Water (The Magic World of Stewart Judah). The second part which bridges the gap between Stewart Judah's Oil and Water and Roy Walton's Oil and Queens is the anti-oil and water by none other than Ricky Jay (and this was confirmed by Richard in the previous post I am having trouble locating). I remember that a number of viewers here were quite surprised when Ricky Jay's name was associated with this routine. The third and final part is of course Roy Walton's Oil and Queens (The Devil's Playthings)
I believe that this is the routine that Derek was a little reluctant to Richard publishing in the book.
Perhaps Richard will be kind enough to verify this again.

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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 13th, 2008, 5:25 pm

There were two things that I had seen Derek do, and which I wanted to publish in the book, that are Ricky's. One was the patter for Card Warp, the other was this Oil and Water routine. I asked Derek to phone Ricky and get permission. Derek told me that he had done so, and that Ricky said it was okay.

This was a total screwup. Ricky specifically told Derek not to include the Oil and Water routine in the book! He didn't care about the patter for Card Warp. But Derek got it backward. I spoke with Ricky about this a few years ago and got it cleared up.
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby David Thomas » September 13th, 2008, 7:45 pm

What's Ricky's patter for cardwarp?
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 13th, 2008, 9:00 pm

Not for me to give away.
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Re: Dingle/Walton Oil and Water

Postby John Carey » September 14th, 2008, 9:40 am

Hallas wrote:Sorry it wasn't so clear, Kent. I was suggesting your presentation was effective because the post I quoted referred to a six card version.

Re:"I worked in a magic shop when those symbols were the rage. I think the preponderance of them, in that era, has soured me forever." I can't argue with that.

I've never been a big fan of the plot, personally, because I've seen so many bad performances of it. Some which go on too long. I'd not say that about the one demonstrated, nor the excellent one I saw Joshua Jay do before a lecture in Reading last week.

Here's one I played with (and have used with smaller cards in the restaurant) but you won't like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuARtUw_K1k

Apart from the type of cards used, my presentation is a bit too slow here.

Best wishes,
Paul.
Nice one Paul.
Just needs a bit more pace/accelaration as per what you mentioned presentation wise.
Thanks for sharing

Best

John


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