Elmsley count with mechanics grip

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Stan Willis
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Stan Willis » May 14th, 2008, 3:27 pm

On page 130 of the book " Wildcard Miracles " by Frank Garcia under the following author's note: "I will show you the best, smoothest, and most convincing method for doing the Elmsley Count. It has been credited to many of the so called inner circle but it was shown to me by my late dear friend Frank Thompson. When it came to ploys, nuances and techniques, he had no peer. I am now accurately putting it in print for the very first time with the correct method of performance. It is not only a favorite of mine but also a favorite of Ricky Jay and Derek Dingle."
If my memory serves me correctly Ricky Jay did not approve of Frank tipping this method to the general public.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 14th, 2008, 4:01 pm

I don't see that it's his concern if it belong to Frank Thompson. What is the technique?
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Glenn Godsey
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Glenn Godsey » May 14th, 2008, 4:09 pm

Pete Biro wrote:Sound like you are left handed?


No, the movements are like holding a deck in the left hand and counting four cards into the right hand, reversing their order...the same motions as right hand dealing.

I have the Garcia Wild Card book for many years and I went through his description more than a few times...but my method seems much less convoluted to me. I certainly could be wrong.
The best thing would be to post a video of my method and you can judge how well it works. I'll see if I can do that.

Best regards,
Glenn Godsey

Glenn Godsey
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Glenn Godsey » May 14th, 2008, 4:57 pm

OK, I just got out my Garcia "Wild Card Miracles" book and went through his instructions for The "Frank Thompson method" ("also a favorite of Ricky Jay and Derick Dingle").

The method is exactly what I do, but backwards...you end up with the packet counted into the left hand. I always felt that this seemed "left-handed" since I deal with my right hand. So, my method is the same except the packet is counted off with the right hand and the packet ends up in the right hand :-) ???

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Glenn Godsey

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Dave V
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Dave V » May 14th, 2008, 8:08 pm

Glenn, it sounds like it's you and me against the world. I do it exactly how you describe, for the same reasons.
"I still play with a full deck, I just shuffle slower"

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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby flynn » May 14th, 2008, 8:55 pm

Im changng my Elmsely up, even though I never had it quesioned by spectators, to the way Jennings did his. When he did it, it looks like he's taking the pack into his right and then counting them into his left. But the first two or three steps, from the transfer to the first count, he does it almost all in one motion so it really looks like he's starting the count from the right.

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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Ian Kendall » May 15th, 2008, 3:48 am

Flynn - read back a few pages. That's what we've been saying since page one...

Take care, Ian

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Dr. Mitch Magic
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Dr. Mitch Magic » May 21st, 2008, 10:48 pm

I had the pleasure of meeting and having a couple of drinks with Mr. Elmsley a number of years ago.

After showing him my count, (in the mechanic's grip), he patted my hand and said "You did that perfectly, young man".

It was one of my proudest moments in magic.

Since then, I have modified my count slightl. Now, when I pull off each card, I give the corner a little snap as it leaves the packet to somewhat prove the cards are single and being counted off. I don't mention or draw attention to the snap, it's just an auditory thing that, in my opinion, reinforces the fairness and single-ness of the count.
Fraternally yours in magic,

Dr. Mitch

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 21st, 2008, 11:48 pm

Mitch, that's the way Jennings did it--it can be seen on some of his videotapes.
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Dr. Mitch Magic
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Dr. Mitch Magic » May 22nd, 2008, 12:45 am

Thanks Richard,

I remember seeing it in person somewhere, but never remembered where.

I think it's a very intelligent subletly that adds to a great move.
Fraternally yours in magic,



Dr. Mitch

David Britland
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby David Britland » May 22nd, 2008, 11:02 am

Hi Mitch

Peter Kane used to say that the Elmsley Count should be heard as well as seen. If you want the spectators to note that you have four cards, then snapping them during the count is one way of underlining that idea.

Oddly, one of the problems that comes up when first learning the original Four Card Trick is that spectators often aren't convinced that there are only four cards. The move is so smooth that it doesn't really look like you are counting the cards. It is more of a display. Add to that the temptation to say, 'Here is a trick with four cards' and the beginner is bound to invite suspicion.

Tricks that require the spectators to note the specific number of cards in play, for instance Derek Dingle's version of the Eleven Card Trick, use quite different counts that are far more convincing in this context.

The Elmsley Count is in such widespread use in magic that it is often just accepted as the way things should be. Whereas sometimes it pays to step back and ask whether it actually bears any resemblance to what the count is meant to emulate. Unfortunately its combination of versatility and ease of handling make it the first port of call for anyone devising a trick that uses a packet of cards. That's not to denigrate the count. Like the double lift it is a victim of its own success.

David

Glenn Godsey
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Glenn Godsey » May 22nd, 2008, 2:22 pm

I don't remember where I got this or what it is called. It is to hide the third card and give the impression that you you show both sides of each card:

Face up packet of four...third card card is an ace. Do the first two moves of the Elmsley...then the take hand turns over at the wrist to show the backs of two cards...the fingers push off the top card of the two face down on the table...the same hand turns up to show both sides of the remaining card, then places it face down...the take hand goes back and takes the third card, shows both sides and lays it face down, then the same with the fourth card.

What is this and where did I get it?

Glenn Godsey

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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Pete McCabe » May 22nd, 2008, 2:50 pm

Glenn,

A better version was printed in Genii a few years back. Hold four cards in the right fingertips. Take the top card in the left hand, then use the right hand packet to tip it over. Now do the Elmsley change, and use the right card packet to turn over the second card (i.e. the top card of the two in the left hand). Take the third card, tipping it over with the last card, then tip the last card over onto the three in the left hand.

This seems to very convincingly show both sides of every card, but one side is concealed. A good way to "print" a business card.

I forget who created this.


By the way, does anyone know where you can get business cards printed on playing card stock. It doesn't have to be good quality playing card stock, but I've got samples of a glossy stock from a printer and they don't handle well enough for what I want. Any references will be appreciated.

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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Ian Kendall » May 22nd, 2008, 4:18 pm

Rolling Elmsley was printed in the second Looking Glass. This shows all(?) the sides of the cards.

There's a bloke in Germany - Christian Schenk - who will print up custom cards. card-shark.de

Take care, Ian

Alan M
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Alan M » May 22nd, 2008, 4:27 pm

Glenn,
Your description sounds like it could be Vinny Marini's Roll Over Count.

-Alan

espermachine
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby espermachine » June 26th, 2008, 10:30 am

David Britland wrote:
Peter Kane used to say that the Elmsley Count should be heard as well as seen. If you want the spectators to note that you have four cards, then snapping them during the count is one way of underlining that idea.


I have Kane's International tape and he really does snap each card loudly during the count; Ive never seen anybody else do it like that. He also performed the several Elmsley's required for Jazz Aces incredibly fast...staccato.

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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » June 26th, 2008, 11:51 am

While watching a magician perform an Elmsley Count, I heard a lay person murmur: "What kind of shuffle is that?" The most lucid, convincing handling of the Elmsley Count I've seen was done by Bernard Bilis. It is explained in CARD FINESSE #2.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 26th, 2008, 12:24 pm

You'll find that Jennings also snapped the cards during an Elmsley Count. This can be seen on one of his videos. All of this is explained in Mr. Jennings Takes It Easy.
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Alessandro S.
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Alessandro S. » July 7th, 2008, 4:56 am

A few years ago I had some fun putting a computer at work to explore the false count "space".
I have described the findings for the 4-as-4 counts here:

http://www.ascotti.org/magic/secret_area.htm

There is a count where the second card from top is hidden, which uses a new technique (was new for me at least).
The above page also includes the computer program that I have written for that task, and that can handle other types of count.
It was a fun project, hopefully still of some interest.

Bob Farmer
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Bob Farmer » July 7th, 2008, 11:54 am

Alessandro:

This is an interesting idea. I've done something similar with pen and paper and no computer but ultimately it's not that useful, but here's what is: in any packet effect the packet goes through several different states and the transitions among the states is accomplished either by some sort of false count or display, or some sort of one or two card displacement.

For the progression of effects to appear seamless to the audience the packet has to move from state to state as smoothly as possible without a lot of physical action.

For example, if you count the packet and something magicial happens and then you have to pull out some cards and place them on top of the packet before the next effect -- that looks bad. It would be much better to be able to go immediately into the next effect without the meaningless (to the audience) removal of those cards.

I've done this (see "Cascade" vs. "Mutanz") by setting up a chart of what the states the packet has to pass through and then working back and forth through the chart to come up with the optimal procedure. What happens is that a count done, say, three counts previously, will have a profound effect on the cards later.

So, a computer program that could identify each state of the packet and then suggest the optimal procedure for the entire effect would be most useful.

Ken Becker
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Ken Becker » July 7th, 2008, 2:06 pm

John,
Please advise page number re Bilis'handling of EC.
Thanks,
Ken Becker

Alessandro S.
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Alessandro S. » July 8th, 2008, 5:41 am

Hi Bob,
that's a really nice job for a computer! :-) My program can only help up to a point with that. It does show the resulting permutation and the "inverse" sequence if found, but it can't remember intermediate states. I'll give a look and see if I can add this feature.

Bob Farmer
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Bob Farmer » July 8th, 2008, 8:10 pm

Alessandro:

I have a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Do you have a fax number? If so, send me an email at trickmail@cogeco.ca and I'll send it along (anywhere in the world).

DrDanny
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby DrDanny » July 9th, 2008, 10:01 am

Ken Becker wrote:John,
Please advise page number re Bilis'handling of EC.
Thanks,
Ken Becker


A quick perusal of CF-2 turned up only Bob Stencel's "Relaxed EC", p57, which certainly has merit.

Ken Becker
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Re: Elmsley count with mechanics grip

Postby Ken Becker » July 9th, 2008, 12:42 pm

Thanks, Dr. Danny, for the info. That is also the only one I found.
Ken Becker


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