Marlo's Convincing Control

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
spike
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Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby spike » March 17th, 2008, 1:41 pm

My first post here.
I've seen the convincing control on a youtube video without an explanation how it was done. Can anyone steer me to a detailed description? I heard that it can be found in Volume 5 of Marlo's Magazine, but don't know where to pick up a copy of that.
Thanks!
Spike

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David Prouty
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby David Prouty » March 17th, 2008, 2:09 pm

Spike,

For starters, try Giobbi's Card College Volume 3, pg. 551 .

Best Regards,
David Prouty

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Jeffrey Cowan » March 17th, 2008, 2:13 pm

Try Frank Simon's book "Versatile Card Magic". It teaches the same move, essentially, with a different name and contains a superb explanation. That's how I learned it.

I believe that Mike Caveney republished this a few years ago. Try mcmagicwords.com
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spike
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby spike » March 17th, 2008, 3:21 pm

Thanks for the lead, Jeffrey. Indeed, Mike Caveny had the book.
Spike

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 17th, 2008, 3:23 pm

The sleight was created by Larry Jennings, not Ed Marlo. There is a detailed history of this in Jennings '67.

Jennings called it Immediate Bottom placement. He performed it for Alton Sharpe (John Thompson was there at the time and has verified this to me, as did Sharpe himself when I asked him about it), who then described what he saw to Marlo, and Marlo reconstructed it and published it without permission. Marlo did this sort of thing often.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Glenn Bishop » March 17th, 2008, 4:03 pm

If I remember I learned the Marlo Convincing control from a group of soft covered books called the Hyrophrent - or something close to that. Please forgive my spelling I used to own that set of four or five books many years ago.

I think that they were written or put together by Jon Racherbaumer.

There is also a great move in one of the Allan Ackerman books that I have found handy. Using the Hofzinser card pass to the bottom - a move that is similar to the Marlo Convincing control and then taking the card into a palm in the left hand.

I think the Ackerman book is called Here's Your Card - or something close to that.

I use the Marlo Convincing control in my Ambitious card routine and I also use it to palm a card - Allan Ackerman's idea using the Hofzinser card pass to the bottom.

I hope this helps.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 17th, 2008, 4:07 pm

Heirophant.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Glenn Bishop » March 17th, 2008, 4:12 pm

Thanks Richard - I found saying the title of those books just as hard as spelling the title of those books.

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Philippe Billot » March 17th, 2008, 4:16 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Heirophant.


You want to say HIEROPHANT ?

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 17th, 2008, 5:15 pm

Yes, Philippe, I want to WRITE ( :) ) "Hierophant."
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Philippe Billot » March 17th, 2008, 6:10 pm

I'm not putting words into your mouth ? pen ? computer ?

Glenn Bishop
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Glenn Bishop » March 17th, 2008, 7:15 pm

If I remember right there were some great routine ideas for the Hofzinser card pass to the bottom - using it for a very clean sandwich effect in the Earl Nelson book Variations.

I hope this helps.

spike
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby spike » March 18th, 2008, 10:23 am

You've all been GREAT! Very helpful. Thanks so much.
Spike

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Glenn Bishop » March 18th, 2008, 11:01 am

The thing I like about the Allan Ackerman idea using it for the card to wallet is that the signed card is out jogged - as far as the lay audience can see.

Then the deck can be set on the table with the card still out jogged and the wallet removed from the pocket and then set on the table. The card is pushed into the deck and the spectator shuffles the deck.

Then the card is removed from the wallet.

I hope this helps.

magicalt
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby magicalt » March 18th, 2008, 11:48 am

Spike I also would recommend Earl Nelson's Variations since trying to find a Marlo Magazine is not that easy and if you do be prepared to pay a pretty penny for each.

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby magicalt » March 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm

If you have Jenning's 67 Immediate Bottom placement is on Page 44 if not I am pretty sure that you can obtain a copy from Richard. The Hofzinger Card pass to full bottom palm is on Page 27 of Heres My Card by Ackerman.

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Glenn Bishop » March 19th, 2008, 10:00 am

Hey thanks magicalt - that is the Allan Ackerman book I was trying to think of.

Mr. Stickley
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Mr. Stickley » March 19th, 2008, 6:19 pm

For some REAL WORK on the convincing control, I recomend "Fair and Sloppy" put out by E-Gads as part of the Ron Bauer Private Studies.

It's pretty cheap, only ten bucks still I think, and the handling there is explained in depth and really takes care of the "tells". If I remember correctly (it has been a few years since I read it) John Dowdy is referenced in there as well and had some super sneaky stuff on the convincing control for left-handers (I think it's in there - or maybe Dowdy just showed it to me around the time the book was coming out).

The trick itself is pretty good too. But the convincing control work is worth well more than the price of the pamphlet.

Most dealers should have it, or you should be able to order it through http://thinklikeaconjuror.com

Mr. Stickley

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 20th, 2008, 11:21 am

You'll get a lot more bang for your buck if you buy Jennings '67 rather than an overpriced little booklet which teaches only one thing. :)
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Philippe Billot » March 20th, 2008, 12:04 pm

Sure ! Jennings '67 is a very good book !

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Chas Nigh
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Chas Nigh » March 30th, 2008, 10:28 pm

Speakin of Jennings67 I was abletobuy that book, Gary Plant's book , and Steve Draun's book for $20.00 each from Mr. Genii. Ah, those were the days!

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 30th, 2008, 10:51 pm

Scratch and Dent Sale, probably. But not anything from Gary Plants--I only sell the books I publish.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby El Mystico » April 12th, 2016, 7:08 am

Resurrecting an old thread:
The Jennings story is that Jennings showed the move to Sharp who described it to Marlo.
The Marlo story is that the move described by Sharp was not Convincing Control.
Well.
According to Marlo's magazine the move Sharp described was: "Larry spreads deck FACE UP and has a spectator touch any card in the center. He then closes up the spread, turns the deck over, then shows the card is on top of the deck."

Richard; you've got Jennings' material; is this actually a Jennings' move?

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 12th, 2016, 11:05 am

I suggest you purchase Jennings '67 and read an accurate version of the story. What you've repeated is not what transpired.
And, yes, the move belongs to Jennings.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby El Mystico » April 12th, 2016, 4:22 pm

Richard: I've had Jennings 66 since it was published!
But in it you say that in Marlos Magazine 6, Marlo admitted that he'd been told by Sharpe how the Jennings sleight looked from the spectators point of view.
But the description in Marlo's Magazine 6 is what I give above; which bears no resemblance to the move.

So I'm wondering if the move that is described in the magazine is an actual Jennings move. If not, then it makes it more likely that the move Jennings showed Sharp and which Sharp showed Marlo was the Immediate Bottom Placement.

Incidentally, years ago in some magazine you printed a list of Christmas presents; returning sleights to their original owners. A great article. Can you remind me where it was? Thanks!

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 12th, 2016, 8:12 pm

Sharpe called Marlo after seeing Jennings perform the move. He described exactly what he saw (Jennings did not explain the sleight). Johnny Thompson was with Sharpe at the time and verified this to me.

That article on Christmas Presents was published about 20 years ago, at least, in MAGIC magazine.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby prodigy » April 12th, 2016, 8:57 pm

In Reinventing the Real (2010), Tyler Wilson writes the following under the Convincing Control credits:

Edward Victor's Card In The Aces was published in Methods for Miracles No. 8 (n.d., but was first advertised in 1951), edited by Willane. In it, he described the idea of controlling a card to the bottom of the deck by switching it for a dummy card. This switch took place during a transit ion from the deck being held vertically-to show the selection-and returning it to a horizontal position. The selection wasn't outjogged, nor was it culled under the pack (the deck was merely cut around the dummy card), but it is still clearly an ancestor to what is commonly referred to as the Convincing Control. And here is where all crediting goes to hell. Ed Marlo published the now-standard Convincing Control in the March, 1970 issue of The Hierophant magazine (No. 3). But Larry Jennings later claimed to be doing a similar move called the Immediate Bottom Placement, and that Mr. Marlo stole his idea (via Alton Sharpe, who told Mr. Marlo what Mr. Jennings' technique looked like). The Jennings camp started spreading the word, publishing the move in A Problem With Hofzinser in The Classic Magic of Larry Jennings (1986), written by Mike Maxwell, and a full history of the move in Jennings '67 (1997), written by Richard Kaufman. Mr. Kaufman even went so far as to note that Mr. Marlo finally admitted all of this in Marlo's Magazine Volume 6 (1988). Open and shut? Not quite. If one actually reads Marlo's Magazine Volume 6, they will see that Mr. Marlo vehemently denies that Mr. Jennings had anything to do with the Convincing Control (and claims that Mr. Sharpe can back it up). So I'm not sure if Mr. Kaufman was purposely trying to rewrite history, or simply hadn't read the source, but the admission of guilt he slapped on Mr. Marlo was completely inaccurate. But let's be realistic, Mr. Marlo's word alone doesn't go very far. And that's where Allan Ackerman comes into play. As a student of Mr. Marlo, he learned the Convincing Control before it was published and developed a variation called A Card Pass, eventually seeing print in his book, Here's My Card (1978). He is adamant that when Mr. Jennings saw his move (before the Convincing Control hit the page) he was badly fooled. And since Mr. Ackerman based his technique on Mr. Marlo's, it stands that Mr. Jennings couldn't have had it first. So with two convincing sides to the Convincing Control debate, whose is it? In the interest of not getting beaten up by either side, I'll just say Edward Victor.

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Justin Fraser » April 13th, 2016, 11:00 am

Another interesting read from Denis Behr's website Conjuring Credits.

http://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.ph ... ng_control

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby prodigy » April 13th, 2016, 7:03 pm

Justin Fraser wrote:Another interesting read from Denis Behr's website Conjuring Credits.

http://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.ph ... ng_control


Very interesting read, especially the "Bruce Cervon's unpublished commentary, circulated by e-mail, that closely followed the publication of Jennings '67."

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 13th, 2016, 9:28 pm

Bruce Cervon was extremely jealous of Jennings, not only his great creations, but also of his relationship with Vernon. Cervon's private writings are filled with bias, untruth, and often attempts to steal credit for Jennings' effects.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby El Mystico » April 14th, 2016, 1:04 pm

OK;
I've got two questions. I'll put the other in a different thread to avoid confusion.

Richard; regardless of who copied who; out of interest, did Larry have anything specific on "Larry spreads deck FACE UP and has a spectator touch any card in the center. He then closes up the spread, turns the deck over, then shows the card is on top of the deck."
Seems to me to be just a straight Hofzinser cull and turnover.

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 14th, 2016, 2:04 pm

It's not a straight Hofzinser Cull. You might read the method in Jennings '67.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby El Mystico » April 14th, 2016, 2:29 pm

I might...but I couldn't see it...

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 14th, 2016, 2:32 pm

I have no idea what you mean.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby El Mystico » April 14th, 2016, 2:57 pm

I'm sorry.
According to the Marlo Magazine, this is what Sharp described to Marlo "Larry spreads deck FACE UP and has a spectator touch any card in the center. He then closes up the spread, turns the deck over, then shows the card is on top of the deck."
This does not sound to me like Convincing Control.
It sounds like a Hofzinser Cull and turnover.
But if that is all it was, why was Jennings showing it off to Sharp?
So - did Jennings have a clever touch on the Hofzinser cull and turnover?
(Or, if not, is the Marlo Magazine misrepresenting what Jennings showed Sharp?)

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 14th, 2016, 5:40 pm

Marlo misrepresented stuff all the time.
If you read the description of the Immediate Bottom Placement in the Jennings '67, you'll quickly see--as Sharpe did--that it's not a straightforward Hofzinser Cull (as if anyone really knows the exact details and finger placement Hofzinser used when doing a cull).
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby El Mystico » April 15th, 2016, 12:47 pm

Hi; completely agree that Immediate Bottom Placement is not the Hofzinser cull!!!!

But; what Marlo describes in Marlo's Magazine is: "Larry spreads deck FACE UP and has a spectator touch any card in the center. He then closes up the spread, turns the deck over, then shows the card is on top of the deck."
This is different from the Hofzinser cull in several important aspects.
First; it is a face up spread, rather than a faces towards the spectator spread.
Second: there is no mention of an upjogged card.
Third; the card ends on the top of the deck, not the bottom.

So when you said Marlo admitted he had been told about Immediate Bottom Placement in Marlo's Magazine, I think this is wrong.

But you say "Marlo misrepresented stuff all the time."
So - since the description above is not of the Immediate Bottom Placement; is it of a different Jennings technique? Is the description above of something that Jennings might have shown to Sharp?

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Ryan Matney » April 15th, 2016, 12:57 pm

Personally, the key for me is that Johnny Thompson was THERE when Jennings showed Sharpe the sleight and verified to Richard that Larry did indeed perform his IBP for Sharpe. Thompson's reputation is without peer.

Richard, do you know why the IBD did not appear in the Sharpe books after Larry gave it to him for that purpose? I mean, did Sharpe give you a reason that it did not appear in his books?

Just speculating, but it makes sense that Sharpe described the move to Marlo (who then published variations and claimed the idea quickly in magazines) forcing Sharpe to exclude the sleight from his book.
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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby magicfish » April 21st, 2016, 9:27 pm

In my opinion, Jennings' IBP is superior to Marlo's Convincing Control Method.

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Re: Marlo's Convincing Control

Postby Jon Racherbaumer » April 22nd, 2016, 11:12 am

Since I weighed in on this topic (the provenance part) long, long ago, I'm not interested in re-litigating this aspect. That being said, I continue to be amused and bemused by the undue emphasis placed on WHO invented WHAT and WHEN rather than on HOW these techniques are EXACTLY DONE and how are they APPLIED.

I first saw the basic action when I read Marlo's work on the "Prayer Cull." Later I saw Allan Ackerman do something he called A Card Pass that he published in MAGIC MAGIA EFFECTS.

When I published "Convincing Control" in the HIEROPHANT, the technique gained traction and THEN everybody focused on it and began piling on and jumping on bandwagons and publishing stuff…which was a GOOD THING.

And, yes, we should concern ourselves with how things evolve and who did WHAT, WHEN, and HOW, but years from now (if there are still pasteboards to play with), most of the names will no longer be uttered or cited.

At the moment when someone asks me about Convincing Control, I mention ALL of the names most of us know: Marlo, Jennings, Hofzinser, Victor, Ackerman, Rosenthal, Simon (Frank), Sharpe, and others. Then I add, "Read what EVERYONE has written and claimed and then decide for yourself. Finally, figure out how you are going to use it. That's the bottom line."

Meanwhile, I'm happy to have provided a FLASH-POINT back in 1969.

Onward...


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