Coins Across Routine by Al

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Al Schneider
Posts: 230
Joined: July 8th, 2010, 8:55 pm

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Al Schneider » October 20th, 2021, 12:32 pm

I have had this out for some time.
Perhaps most here have seen it.
I have not discussed the handling anywhere.
Ii have struggled with the main move for years and finally found a technique that makes it work.
The routine was designed to be versatile.
Just coins and guts.
I have tested it on some lay people.
Even after repeat viewings they still say it looks like magic.
Magicians seem to have a different point of view.
Wondering what you guys might say.

https://youtu.be/3wIWJ-cXjb4
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

User avatar
katterfelt0
Posts: 273
Joined: February 2nd, 2021, 2:11 pm
Favorite Magician: Depends on the day. Today, Rick Maue.

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby katterfelt0 » October 20th, 2021, 12:46 pm

I'd tell a different story, but the magic part was wonderful.
BTW, I really miss your "Schneider Technique" columns.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

Jack Shalom
Posts: 1368
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Jack Shalom » October 20th, 2021, 4:27 pm

The same here. Without the patter, which I think diminishes the effect, the magic is strong.

Edward Pungot
Posts: 922
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Edward Pungot » October 20th, 2021, 6:45 pm

What you need is some...

[ Ominous Atmospheric Music ]

Premonition Following an Evil Deed
https://youtu.be/IFpoWwY65KI
David Lynch / Angelo Badalamenti
1995

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 20th, 2021, 7:12 pm

Al Schneider wrote:I have had this out for some time.
Perhaps most here have seen it.
I have not discussed the handling anywhere.
Ii have struggled with the main move for years and finally found a technique that makes it work.
The routine was designed to be versatile.
Just coins and guts.
I have tested it on some lay people.
Even after repeat viewings they still say it looks like magic.
Magicians seem to have a different point of view.
Wondering what you guys might say.

https://youtu.be/3wIWJ-cXjb4


I like it a lot, including the accompanying patter. It's refreshing to see direct straightforward magic, so cleanly executed, with a nice little story, yet not long-winded. If I were to do something similar, I would be tempted to say, "The China Doll's name was Han Ping Chien" (just as an inside joke), and I probably wouldn't be able to resist looking through the hole in the Chinese coin, saying, "She was from Peeking." Thanks for sharing this!

JHostler
Posts: 752
Joined: September 27th, 2008, 8:34 pm

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby JHostler » October 20th, 2021, 10:07 pm

Beautifully executed!
"The gnomes' ambition is handicapped by laziness." Adapted from Charles Bukowski, and clearly evident at http://www.gnominal.com

Dave Le Fevre
Posts: 365
Joined: December 24th, 2015, 10:29 am
Favorite Magician: Paul Megram

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Dave Le Fevre » October 21st, 2021, 7:46 am

I don't usually like such anthropomorphising presentations. Though I liked this one.

Things like "now the Jack of Clubs was a detective card, so he could find your card" usually bore me. But that's just me - maybe many performers and many spectators like them.

MagicbyAlfred wrote: I probably wouldn't be able to resist looking through the hole in the Chinese coin, saying, "She was from Peeking."
I really like that :D

Tarotist
Posts: 1363
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Tarotist » October 21st, 2021, 12:22 pm

Oh, you can't possibly say that! You might make it entertaining!

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4546
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Brad Henderson » October 21st, 2021, 2:03 pm

What is a China Doll?

As an automata collector I’m familiar with the term in relation to actual dolls with china faces. Is this some slang for a type of person?

Al Schneider
Posts: 230
Joined: July 8th, 2010, 8:55 pm

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Al Schneider » October 21st, 2021, 4:46 pm

If we were to walk into a bar and I said, "Let's talk to the two dolls sitting at the bar," What would you think?
And you are from Texas whereas I grew up in Detroit. Slang is a bit different.
However, I was imitating how sailors from Brooklyn would approach the situation.
A magician from Minneapolis was a sailor and he told me how he met girls when on leave.
He would get a map and note the address of where he was.
Then he would walk down the street looking at the map.
When he encountered a pretty girl, he would ask her where that location was.
She would tell him and he would walk in that direction; with her. Got it?
Oh, he was from Greenland.
I got the china doll idea from WWII movies that were popular when i was growing up.
Sailors with Brooklyn accents were always walking into bars someplace in the orient and looking for trouble.
I guess it was for comic relief.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Kent Gunn
Posts: 753
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 2:05 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Kent Gunn » October 21st, 2021, 4:57 pm

Brad,
China doll is a pejorative. Now, I am the least politically correct person on earth and easily the poster child for insensitivity.

Al will most likely spring to his own defense to usurp my crown.

Still . . . I'm new to several terms being perceived by the crew they insult as being in really poor taste. G&psy, a pejorative for the Romani folk, was elucidated, by a Romani magician I know, to be a horrid choice in a trick I'd concocted. I changed the patter. Magic performance should never insult any portion of your audience.

Just because we're unaware of our prejudices, doesn't mean we can't grow!

Al Schneider
Posts: 230
Joined: July 8th, 2010, 8:55 pm

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Al Schneider » October 21st, 2021, 5:19 pm

China doll is a pejorative? I had no idea.
Tell me more.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Kent Gunn
Posts: 753
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 2:05 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Kent Gunn » October 21st, 2021, 5:36 pm

Al,
I only knew about this because I grew up where all of my classmates spoke Cantonese.

As rowdy school children, we freely traded epithets. In the home of my first girlfriend, I referred to her as my little China Doll. Her father informed me, quite politely that he found the term offensive and told me not to use it.

Fast forward forty odd years and via a quick Google search puked this up.

East Asian women are often referred to as 'china dolls', meaning they are dainty and beautiful, with the implication of absence of feelings and autonomy. These stereotypical depictions in mainstream American media may have contributed to the fetishization of Asian peoples.

I have no sense your usage has ANY ill-tempered or derisive intent. I think calling a doll made of porcelain a Chinese Doll is fine. I was trying to tell Brad the one single thing he didn't know. ;)

As ALWAYS, your magic is fabulous.

KG

Kent Gunn
Posts: 753
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 2:05 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Kent Gunn » October 21st, 2021, 6:12 pm

On a second viewing, even though Al's referring to a human, not a diminuative child's toy. I get no evil intent. The sailor's being present, in the trick, makes me place all the blame on them.

Al Schneider
Posts: 230
Joined: July 8th, 2010, 8:55 pm

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Al Schneider » October 21st, 2021, 6:55 pm

Part of my character is to admit I am wrong.
I believe that intelligence is directly proportional to willingness to admit self wrong.
Whatever has been said, I am wrong.
Thank you Kent Gunn for being so blunt about this.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Kent Gunn
Posts: 753
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 2:05 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Kent Gunn » October 21st, 2021, 8:36 pm

Al,

For a multitude of reasons, you are an awesome guy.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 21st, 2021, 9:18 pm

Three brothers from America were walking down the street in Shanghai, walked into a bar and grabbed a table. The brothers were all single, and craving some female companionship. They noticed a lovely Chinese woman sitting on the other side of the room, sipping on a Mai Tai...

John Signa
Posts: 318
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby John Signa » October 22nd, 2021, 1:09 am

Kent Gunn wrote:Al,
I think calling a doll made of porcelain a Chinese Doll is fine.


When referring to an actual doll, “china” refers to the material so use a lowercase “c” and you’re fine. “My mother collects china dolls.”

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 22nd, 2021, 5:57 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:Three brothers from America were walking down the street in Shanghai, walked into a bar and grabbed a table. The brothers were all single, and craving some female companionship. They noticed a lovely Chinese woman sitting on the other side of the room, sipping on a Mai Tai...


A bit of a revision to this hypothetical patter:

Once upon a time, there were three men from America visiting Shanghai. The men were triplets, and they were all single. Anyway, hoping to find some female companionship, they walked into a bar and grabbed a table, when they noticed a lovely Chinese woman sitting on the other side of the room, sipping on a Mai Tai... etc.

This would justify the virtually identical appearance of the three silver coins, and at the same time, eliminate any possible ambiguity or misinterpretation as to terminology.

Kent Gunn
Posts: 753
Joined: May 15th, 2008, 2:05 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Kent Gunn » October 22nd, 2021, 7:42 am

John,
My knowledge of the rules of capitalization are effing legendary. You wrote:


When referring to an actual doll, “china” refers to the material so use a lowercase “c” and you’re fine. “My mother collects china dolls.”

Thank you for not reading what I wrote. I wrote "Chinese Dolls".

I'm fine. Thank you.

Edward Pungot
Posts: 922
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Edward Pungot » October 22nd, 2021, 11:26 am

Just use a lucky rainbow coin and everything will be hunky-dory.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 22nd, 2021, 11:51 am

Honored members,

I have been advised that my posts may contain content offensive to others. Although I had no intent to offend and was just trying to come up with some alternative patter, it appears that I may have nonetheless offended and unwittingly propagated objectionable stereotypes. I tried to delete the posts in question, but it was too late, so the best I can do at this point is to retract them and to offer my apologies to anyone I may have offended.

Magically yours,
Alfred

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27047
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 22nd, 2021, 1:18 pm

I want everyone to understand why I am leaving this thread here. It is a lesson for all of us in how the use of certain terms may be offensive to some and yet that fact may be completely unfamiliar to us; and also a lesson in how we all learn going forward.

If anyone would like their posts deleted, please email me at moobooks@verizon.net and let me know by pasting the contents of that post (or posts) into the body of the email.

I will suggest to Al that he create a new title and audio track for his wonderful handling.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27047
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 22nd, 2021, 1:34 pm

Al Schneider wrote:If we were to walk into a bar and I said, "Let's talk to the two dolls sitting at the bar," What would you think?


Al, it's a great handling and fooled me the first time I watched it. But the time when we can use patter that uses terms from movies made during a time when negative racist and/or sexist terms were routinely used in films is now past.

I realize that you did not recognize "China Doll" as a negative term, but it is. And I have been guilty of this myself, as there is a trick by Dai Vernon in CoinMagic (1981) called "Chinaman's Chance." I named the trick FORTY years ago (!), but realized some years ago that it was a problem. When I reprint CoinMagic in the coming year, I will somehow try to match the font of the type and change the name.

But in this case it's not only the term "China Doll" that's problematic. Talking about "sailors walking into a bar to pick up some dolls" is also something that many women would find offensive. I am dealing with just this problem in my section on the Hotel Mystery in Greater Magic. There's no question that if you're working for certain people in some situations, then the original patter is fine. However there are a greater number of instances when the patter would be offensive to some people watching the trick. So I have to deal with that in an appropriate way.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 22nd, 2021, 2:54 pm

Originally, I sought to delete my posts, and I realize that Richard has provided the opportunity for that to be done upon request. I have decided, however, not to have my posts deleted in light of what I believe is Richard's correct observation that this thread "is a lesson for all of us in how the use of certain terms may be offensive to some and yet that fact may be completely unfamiliar to us; and also a lesson in how we all learn going forward," and that is why he is leaving the thread alone. I feel that my last post containing my apology will be more meaningful toward that end if I leave my prior posts on here, as they will provide context for why I am apologizing, and even more importantly, useful context for those who read this thread and the comments in it to learn and benefit from it. I know I have. Going forward, I will be much more mindful of my patter, and even beyond magic, in the larger picture, of what I say to people (or write) in the course of everyday life.

Tarotist
Posts: 1363
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2021, 3:30 pm

I am a pitchman so obviously patter is my strong point. As an expert in jibber jabber I bet I could work out something more suitable. No charge for scriptwriting.

Edward Pungot
Posts: 922
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Edward Pungot » October 22nd, 2021, 6:24 pm

Ladies and gentlemen, we are dealing with change. Ordinary and everyday pocket change of a bygone era.

It seems that when something has been perfected and not even misdirection is needed, the magic speaks for itself. If you just keep the volume on mute, you can truly appreciate the magic. Bars anyway are noisy environments, why bother with patter?

Edward Pungot
Posts: 922
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Edward Pungot » October 22nd, 2021, 7:09 pm

Ladies and gentlemen, we are dealing with change. Ordinary and everyday pocket change of a bygone era. The foreign coin is simply a marker, to remind you where we started and where we will be going. But don't fixate too much on the exotic beauty and the impenetrable characters or you'll miss it. There. Did you see it go?
Let's try that again...

Tarotist
Posts: 1363
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2021, 9:27 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, we are dealing with change. Ordinary and everyday pocket change of a bygone era.

It seems that when something has been perfected and not even misdirection is needed, the magic speaks for itself. If you just keep the volume on mute, you can truly appreciate the magic. Bars anyway are noisy environments, why bother with patter?


I think the patter is more important than the trick. Magicians spend too much time on the trick and neglect the patter. As it happens when I watched Al's video the sound was not plugged in by accident so I was forced to watch it without the patter. As a result I couldn't follow the effect. It wasn't until the sound came on that I figured out what was supposed to be happening.

I have always thought that 75% of magicians have poor or badly delivered patter. Some of them either talk too much or too little. I still remember old Murray the escapologist returning from America back to England and I asked him what he thought of the magic he saw there. He responded, "American magicians are so long winded!" I think he had a point!

Tarotist
Posts: 1363
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2021, 9:38 pm

Here we are. I am just making this up as I go along. Completely spur of the moment.

"the idea of the trick is to send these coins one at a time up my sleeve, across my right shoulder to my left shoulder, down my left sleeve and into my other hand. Watch and you might see them go! (Gesture with hands) And here's number one!

I like that so I'll do it again. One down, three to go--how it works I do not know! And there's number two!
OK. Third times a charm --although I'm not that charming! And here is number three.
Last but not least. One, two, three, four---would you like to see some more? Then how about four? And there you are!"

There we are! Completely off the top of my head! I hope it isn't too entertaining for Al!

Edward Pungot
Posts: 922
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Edward Pungot » October 22nd, 2021, 11:38 pm

Mark brings up a good memory technique for making the effect more memorable by giving the coins more "flight time." Perhaps with a subtext of them traveling all the way to China. The exaggerated tall-tale distance traveled in the minds of the spectators is a great memory enhancer to remembering the coins traveling a greater distance than what was actually percieved. I've seen John Carney do this with his coins & champagne glass to great effect.

Tarotist
Posts: 1363
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2021, 11:46 pm

I had a feeling the less said about China the better! I was in a poetic mood so did a bit of rhyming patter!

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 23rd, 2021, 12:25 am

@Al, The coin routine was direct and deceptive. Bravo!

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8704
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 23rd, 2021, 12:28 am

About stories*... or patter... it's what they respond to rather than what you say.

Imagine a performance with at least one person in the audience.
Imagine it's later and they are telling their friend the story of what they remember you did and said.
Imagine the listener wrote down the tale as told.
Imagine someone reading that tale.
Imagine talking to that reader.
i) What does the reader like about the tale?
ii) What do they believe really happened?

... the sound of rain late at night... patter...

*He tells tall tales heard in seashells found by the book store ;)

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 23rd, 2021, 2:19 pm

Tarotist Wrote: Here we are. I am just making this up as I go along. Completely spur of the moment.

"the idea of the trick is to send these coins one at a time up my sleeve, across my right shoulder to my left shoulder, down my left sleeve and into my other hand. Watch and you might see them go! (Gesture with hands) And here's number one!

I like that so I'll do it again. One down, three to go--how it works I do not know! And there's number two!
OK. Third times a charm --although I'm not that charming! And here is number three.
Last but not least. One, two, three, four---would you like to see some more? Then how about four? And there you are!"

There we are! Completely off the top of my head! I hope it isn't too entertaining for Al!

Edward Pungot Wrote: Mark brings up a good memory technique for making the effect more memorable by giving the coins more "flight time." Perhaps with a subtext of them traveling all the way to China. The exaggerated tall-tale distance traveled in the minds of the spectators is a great memory enhancer to remembering the coins traveling a greater distance than what was actually perceived. I've seen John Carney do this with his coins & champagne glass to great effect.

I honestly can't decide which I like better, Mark's patter or Edward's insightful comment about it. However, I would stick with the journey of up the sleeve across the shoulders down the left sleeve and into the other hand. I think that's far enough to be memorable.

Tarotist
Posts: 1363
Joined: July 29th, 2021, 7:16 am
Favorite Magician: David Nixon

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby Tarotist » October 23rd, 2021, 8:28 pm

I say more or less the same thing when I do my version of the cards to pocket. Come to think of it, if I ever happen to be in a good mood (which happens once every six months or so) I may reproduce my version of this trick straight from my most wondrous Annotated Royal Road to Card Magic.

KHC
Posts: 45
Joined: February 25th, 2009, 1:45 am

Re: Coins Across Routine by Al

Postby KHC » November 15th, 2021, 5:09 pm

I want everyone to understand why I am leaving this thread here. It is a lesson for all of us in how the use of certain terms may be offensive to some and yet that fact may be completely unfamiliar to us; and also a lesson in how we all learn going forward.


I'm a tiny bit late with a post to this thread...but thank you Richard for allowing this thread to persist, and most of all, thank you to Kent Gunn for bringing up the term "China Doll" as a prerogative in the first place. I thought it was brave of him to do so, as so many are being called out for "political correctness" these days...and of course thankful for Al Schneider's eloquent reply. As you can tell from my name, I have a stake in this. Magic has been a hobby of mine for many many years. I have come across many derogatory depictions (especially Asian, and a few referring to Blacks) in the magic literature over the years, mostly older stuff. I tend to let it pass, as it is part of magic history...and lessons learned...just don't let it happen again...LOL.

Thanks to all...and Al, please post the YT video again. It has been taken down. I am always interested in Coins Across routines (and to my chagrin, never having learned one...buying more than doing...probably till I die).

Ed: I just noticed, only my initials appear as user name...I'm Chinese American and my 90 yo mom is certainly a "doll", but not a "China Doll"...thanks again


Return to “Close-Up Magic”