The Pass

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 11th, 2019, 9:15 pm

Only a magician would stick a card into the deck from the inner end.
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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 12th, 2019, 6:09 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Only a magician would stick a card into the deck from the inner end.


I will concede that the inventor of the move stuck the card in at the outer end. Try Page 22 of Further Magic of the Hands by Edward Victor.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 12th, 2019, 11:02 am

Yes, that is well known. There are much earlier references.
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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 2:56 pm

After having a look at Derek Dingle's pass which to me is one of the best I have seen I decided to get out my copy of Derek Dingles the Complete Works. Firstly, one of the best books on card magic ever written. Secondly, in most of his work Dingle makes it apparent that if the pass is done properly then it should look like nothing has taken place. If nothing has taken place then the chosen card (to the spectator) should still be in the center of the deck. If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?...

I know generally, the audience would not know about such a control but I still stick with the fact that the pass is a very powerful tool IF DONT CORRECTLY and does not need any extra safeguards before or after. A simple jiggle or riffle with the thumb, while the pass is taking place, helps tremendously to make the pass invisible.

Also, I would be interested in knowing if most prefer transferring the bottom packet to the top or the top packet to the bottom?....

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 3:15 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Only a magician would stick a card into the deck from the inner end.


Wouldn’t this depend on the initial position of the card holding hand?

If the hand is already near the back of the deck it seems a little odd to reach around to the front.

I would agree that sticking out the front is more convincing - but is it more natural?

But, how many people stick cards into the middle of the deck in the first place? It’s almost as if you are arguing what color of someone’s middle eye is most natural.

If I’m holding the card by the bottom corner, it’s much more of a straight line to enter the deck from behind. Turning your wrist to go from the front seems less natural.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.


Sure, I agree on what you are saying but doe not both things go hand in hand. Their interpretation is based on what they see. If they see nothing move (lack of a control) then the outcome is the perfect effect as it looks impossible. Making a pass should look invisible so a shuffle nullifies the point of the pass in the first place...

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 3:45 pm

Christopher1979 wrote: If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?... .


NO, IT DOES NOT! In fact just the opposite! That is the thinking of a magician. The first thing you have to do to become a great magician is to learn to think like a layman. Laymen don't know that you can shuffle and control things. They assume that if you are shuffling that means you are shuffling. Does anyone here actually perform for laymen on a frequent basis?

The next time you do the pass try this as an experiment. Shuffle but watch their faces as you do so. Watch intently and if you have any powers of astute observation (as you should if you are a good magician) you will see them visibly relax as you shuffle. Watch their eyes. And forget Dingle. It is ME you should be listening to.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 3:52 pm

Incidentally if I were to do that daft depth thing (and I never do) I would also shuffle afterwards. You would be extremely daft if you don't.
Underestimate laymen at your peril.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 4:01 pm

performer wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote: If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?... .


NO, IT DOES NOT! In fact just the opposite! That is the thinking of a magician. The first thing you have to do to become a great magician is to learn to think like a layman. Laymen don't know that you can shuffle and control things. They assume that if you are shuffling that means you are shuffling. Does anyone here actually perform for laymen on a frequent basis?

The next time you do the pass try this as an experiment. Shuffle but watch their faces as you do so. Watch intently and if you have any powers of astute observation (as you should if you are a good magician) you will see them visibly relax as you shuffle. Watch their eyes. And forget Dingle. It is ME you should be listening to.


Forget about Dingle and listen to you.... :roll:

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.


Sure, I agree on what you are saying but doe not both things go hand in hand. Their interpretation is based on what they see. If they see nothing move (lack of a control) then the outcome is the perfect effect as it looks impossible. Making a pass should look invisible so a shuffle nullifies the point of the pass in the first place...


Yes. But it all depends on the final effect. Let’s say we put the card in the middle and they see nothing. They name a number, count down to it, and the card is there. Again, luck would dictate that this could have happened.

So the issue isn’t knowledge of control, as you alluded to in your original post to which I responded, but the nature of the effect and the conditions under which it occurs.

We may be arguing split hairs, but there are likely some people who would attempt to dismiss you point by saying ‘laypeople don’t know what a card control is so they would never think about it’.

And that may be true.

BUT they do know what a shuffle is. And showing the card on top after a shuffle can be explained by luck.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 4:04 pm

performer wrote:Incidentally if I were to do that daft depth thing (and I never do) I would also shuffle afterwards. You would be extremely daft if you don't.
Underestimate laymen at your peril.



Shouldn’t that depend on what you wanted the spectator to believe about the location of the card?

If it’s meant to be lost - then yes, shuffling makes sense

If we need them to believe it’s in that spot in the middle, shuffling undermines that belief

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 4:07 pm

th
Brad Henderson wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.


Sure, I agree on what you are saying but doe not both things go hand in hand. Their interpretation is based on what they see. If they see nothing move (lack of a control) then the outcome is the perfect effect as it looks impossible. Making a pass should look invisible so a shuffle nullifies the point of the pass in the first place...


"Yes. But it all depends on the final effect."




Yes, I do agree with you on that point and in all fairness, the actual type of effect that this would pertain too was never discussed

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:21 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
performer wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote: If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?... .


NO, IT DOES NOT! In fact just the opposite! That is the thinking of a magician. The first thing you have to do to become a great magician is to learn to think like a layman. Laymen don't know that you can shuffle and control things. They assume that if you are shuffling that means you are shuffling. Does anyone here actually perform for laymen on a frequent basis?

The next time you do the pass try this as an experiment. Shuffle but watch their faces as you do so. Watch intently and if you have any powers of astute observation (as you should if you are a good magician) you will see them visibly relax as you shuffle. Watch their eyes. And forget Dingle. It is ME you should be listening to.


Forget about Dingle and listen to you.... :roll:


OF COURSE you should be listening to me rather than Dingle! I would have thought that perfectly obvious. And I am dead serious. He was never in the same league as me. And neither is anyone else come to think of it. They merely know how techniques work. I know how the human mind works.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 4:25 pm

Which is why you have become so beloved on all these forums. ;)

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:26 pm

Thank you Brad. I do appreciate anyone who recognises my obvious genius in these matters.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Here is Derek Dingle performing. Not quite in the same league as me as must be perfectly obvious. Rather a good cure for insomnia I imagine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjPN5uOBX0E

Still, I think this is a better one. But it proves my point about the pass. He even has to cover the fact that the fishy procedure is fishy by saying that he is cutting the deck. I will concede the cleverness of it. That does save him shuffling but of course you can't do that with every bloody trick. If people burn his hands they may well see that something is not quite right. You can actually see him holding a break. No, dearie me-----of course you need to shuffle. What I say is always gospel in these matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5trn2FKOQ

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:52 pm

Here he is doing the pass again at 38 seconds in. You can see it from three hundred miles away. Of course he should bloody well shuffle afterwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGL9rEoW6iE

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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 15th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Video is not and has never been a way to assess somebody's actual talent at either presentation or sleight of hand. It's true of Dingle, Jennings, Slydini, Vernon, etc. ALL of these guys were absolute knock-outs using heavy sleight of hand in person. And their presentation was far more engaging in the flesh. You get zero sense of their actual ability while watching a video. Dingle's Pass was INVISIBLE when you were standing beside him and he was performing for you. I saw him do it (or failed to see him do it) hundreds of times over many years. It was supernatural it was so good.
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Re: The Pass

Postby Bob Farmer » June 15th, 2019, 5:47 pm

For a card control that is much easier than the Pass and just as efficient, see my move, "Passtitution," in Best of Friends III by Harry Lorayne, starting at page 403. If you don;t have the book, send me an email and I'll send you the move. Email to bammomagic@cogeco.ca

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Re: The Pass

Postby Krenz » June 15th, 2019, 7:52 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:It was supernatural it was so good.
Agreed. The best pass that I've [n]ever seen, bar none.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Video is not and has never been a way to assess somebody's actual talent at either presentation or sleight of hand. It's true of Dingle, Jennings, Slydini, Vernon, etc. ALL of these guys were absolute knock-outs using heavy sleight of hand in person. And their presentation was far more engaging in the flesh. You get zero sense of their actual ability while watching a video. Dingle's Pass was INVISIBLE when you were standing beside him and he was performing for you. I saw him do it (or failed to see him do it) hundreds of times over many years. It was supernatural it was so good.


I also saw Dingle do the pass live and in person. And I emphasise the word "SAW". I can do the pass twice as well as Dingle ever could but even in my infinitely superior capacity would never be daft enough to do it without shuffling afterwards. The reason you shuffle is because of INSURANCE that people don't catch on to what you are doing. And no matter how well and deceptively you do it, there will be somewhere between 2 times out of 10 that an astute spectator will catch on. He or she may not know what has happened but they will suspect that something has happened. At worst they will know that something has happened and at best will have a vague feeling that something is not quite right.

And that is if you are good at the pass. If you are just average then the percentage goes up 4 or 5 out of 10 rather than 2 out of 10. No. You really have to shuffle after doing the move. I know I am right. You get to learn a few things when you have been doing this stuff for real people for over 60 years.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Pete McCabe » June 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Hi, Pete:
Here's the reference:
"Convincing Tilt" (Daryl Martinez), The Last Hierophant, pg 39 (June, 1979)

Thanks for the reference.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 16th, 2019, 5:24 pm

Krenz wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:It was supernatural it was so good.
Agreed. The best pass that I've [n]ever seen, bar none.


I am highly tempted to make a video and show you a far better one.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Kent Gunn » June 16th, 2019, 8:32 pm

Mark,

Do you do a turnover pass, classic or some sort of cover pass?

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 16th, 2019, 10:30 pm

Kent. I am a most wondrous human being. I can do all sorts of passes. Oh, all right ---only two. Actually three I suppose since I rather like the bluff pass. And in fact all sorts of control methods - some easy but some difficult. However, when it comes to the passes you are discussing I use both the Paul Le Paul pass which is really the Hermann Pass and the Classic Pass. I never use the former for a control but for Cavorting Aces as described in the Stars of Magic. However for the latter (Classic Pass) I use it sometimes as a control but occasionally for other purposes too.


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Re: The Pass

Postby Kent Gunn » June 18th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Mark,

A Svengali deck, really?

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 18th, 2019, 10:15 pm

irrespective of how incredible any of the bygone luminaries previously mentioned may have been doing sleight of hand in person, if one's pass or (or any other move) can be seen on video, then it shouldn't be done. Not in this day and age; the game has changed. It's a different world now, where people are videoing all the time, and you are likely to be on Instagram or Youtube in a heartbeat for all the world to see. I have not had a show in the past several years where at least one person, often more, was videotaping everything i did with their phone. Of course, I don't have to worry cuz I have the best pass anyone's never seen. LOL. And to Performer's point - that knowledge and understanding of human nature (and, I would add, entertainment skills) are more useful tools for a working magician than any sleight of hand, I couldn't agree more.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 18th, 2019, 11:06 pm

Kent Gunn wrote:Mark,

A Svengali deck, really?


Don't be silly, Kent.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 18th, 2019, 11:10 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:irrespective of how incredible any of the bygone luminaries previously mentioned may have been doing sleight of hand in person, if one's pass or (or any other move) can be seen on video, then it shouldn't be done. Not in this day and age; the game has changed. It's a different world now, where people are videoing all the time, and you are likely to be on Instagram or Youtube in a heartbeat for all the world to see. I have not had a show in the past several years where at least one person, often more, was videotaping everything i did with their phone. Of course, I don't have to worry cuz I have the best pass anyone's never seen. LOL. And to Performer's point - that knowledge and understanding of human nature (and, I would add, entertainment skills) are more useful tools for a working magician than any sleight of hand, I couldn't agree more.


I think if people are videoing then you are far better off using one of the myriad other controls where that kind of thing makes no difference. In any event I have always believed that the use of subtlety, if possible, is always better than using a sleight. I am perfectly capable of using intricate sleight of hand but I prefer to use an easier method if it achieves the same objective.

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 19th, 2019, 8:53 am

Precisely, and this is why my practice/rehearsal regimen includes videoing myself, or better yet, having someone else do it from a number of angles. I have had people come back and tell me that they watched the video over and over and over trying to see how it was done (e.g. "how you got those 3 lemons in the cup," or "how you got my ring off that string and onto the wand") and yet they could not catch it. I am not trying to brag here, because only through painful experience was I motivated to get my routines to that level, and it took a lot of unglamorous, hard work. And this is not to say it's perfect by any means - it never will be - but it has improved vastly. I absolutely do not want laymen watching the video they took of me, then coming back and telling me, "I saw what you did."

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 19th, 2019, 4:50 pm

Unfortunately a far bigger danger than that is that you may impress them so thoroughly that they don't have to watch your video. They will simply look it up on google and find out the secret. Not that any of the people on this forum seem to care a jot about it after the discussions I have seen on here with Mahdi Gilbert about it. That of course is because they are not good enough to get laymen to care in the first place. Not that I have a cynical nature of course.

However, if you are a really good performer you are going to get people who are so astonished by your magic that they will look up the bloody secret on You Tube. They don't even have to know the name of the trick. They will simply type in the description. All the daft magicians were screaming blue murder about the Masked Magician on television when he had very little impact on the art. However, when it comes to you tube exposure nobody seems to give a damn about it.

Not a problem for me since I will probably be dead in the next ten years. Or maybe the next ten minutes after the way I feel. And the art of magic may last about just as long the way things are going. All we had to worry about in the past was crappy magicians of whom there are several million. Now we have to worry about the secrets not being secret any more.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Joe Mckay » June 19th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Mark raises a very important point.

He is the only person I have heard discuss this, apart from Andy over at The Jerx and Michael Weber. It really deserves an article in GENII magazine since it is the most important issue facing magicians in the past hundred years. And will be the most important issue facing magicians over the next hundred years as smartphones get faster and faster, and smarter and smarter.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 19th, 2019, 5:39 pm

I also agree with you Mark. I understand that things are very different these days but in a lot of ways it's very disappointing and sometimes discouraging that you can work really REALLY hard on your skills to try and make magic... magical to then find out anyone can find the secrets on Google within a few seconds. There are hundreds, if not thousands of magicians on YouTube explaining how a trick is done and many of them have not even bothered to take the time to learn it properly in the first place!. It seems that the culture now is mainly just magicians watching other magicians on YouTube to then post messages on how the trick was done so they can inflate their ego's.

The beautiful wonderment of magic seems to be something from the past now. Magicians used to have a lot of pride in guarding their secrets from the general public and even fellow magicians.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 19th, 2019, 6:02 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:... Magicians used to have a lot of pride in guarding their secrets from the general public and even fellow magicians.
Bad news for charlatans and some conmen but not interesting to the general public.
Old posters easily seen online can support the concern for exclusivity - that there's occasional "borrowing" of tricks/props and sometimes entire ad copy.
There's also concern about getting things into print as discovered - so there's sensible embargo on discussing some things which are in the works.
The flip side of that last concern is all too often folks wait too long to publish and we don't get to see the items demonstrated or shown in their best light. For example we don't have much direct information from Stuart Gordon about his double turnover handling.

By the way - how to engage an audience, or how to craft the props you need to do some tricks are still not exactly common knowledge. The safe is full of goodies. It's just not the one you are shown during the tour. ;)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 19th, 2019, 6:32 pm

I get your point, Jonathan. I think the secret behind a trick has become even more important than the actual trick. This is when I show an episode of Penn & Teller: Fool Us to make my point.......

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Re: The Pass

Postby Joe Mckay » June 19th, 2019, 7:28 pm

John Lovick said something very interesting recently. It was on an episode of Penn's Sunday School podcast.

It is the most profound thing I have heard about magic in years.

John was teaching magic for some kind of magic college course, and he said the method to a trick simply allows a trick to be possible. But it is not the secret behind why a trick is deceptive.

Laypeople think in terms of how a trick is done. Whereas a magician thinks in terms of what makes a trick deceptive.

Since magic is not real - a method logically has to exist simply to make the trick possible. But the real secret as to why a trick is deceptive is not the method but the subtleties that make add up to the real secret that makes it deceptive. We have all seen how the same trick can get ten very different reactions in the hands of ten different magicians.

A layperson might think the method is, "He switched the coin". Whereas a magician knows it can take years to make such a simple method truly deceptive.

When a layperson discovers a method on youtube and discusses it with a magician, it would be useful to reframe the conversation in this direction. Since it allows for a grown up discussion about the real secrets of magic in a way that still shows respect for those same secrets.

With a bit of luck - a layperson may end up with an even greater appreciation for the art of magic.

I don't think magic is actually an art - I just felt that last sentence sounded better with a little flourish at the end.

I have always used words for how they sound not for what they mean. Anyone recognise that quote? It is from my favourite movie ever. And the favourite movie of Penn Jillette as well. lol

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 19th, 2019, 7:29 pm

The Penn and Teller show is a good one. Alas however the thing that makes it popular is also the thing that trivialises magic somewhat. It depends on the "how is it done" concept when magic is so much more than that. I do accept that figuring out the secret and hopefully failing is always going to be part of the art form. A lot of magicians prattle about "wonder" while I merely wonder why. However, you can have too much of a good thing. It is not a good thing to encourage laymen to be constantly analysing what you do.

And to Joe McKay I am not the only one who talks about this although it certainly seems like it sometimes. Mahdi Gilbert was chattering about it on here and nobody seemed to care. Of course he is interested in the history of magic and I suspect anyone who delves into that kind of thing would be averse to secrets being bandied about to excess. Anyone who is interested in the history of the art must take it seriously. And when you love something and take it seriously you want to protect it.

At one time I never cared about exposure. I knew that laymen would forget the secrets anyway and beginners have to learn somewhere. That is what books are for. The Magic Circle would have kittens about Pat Page writing a book with supposed classic secrets in them or the British Ring of the IBM would go nuts over Paul Daniels selling tricks to the public. I saw nothing wrong with any of that since it can start people off in magic and laymen that stumbled upon these sources would forget what they had seen anyway.

Alas now it has gone too far. I detest it even though at my age it isn't going to affect me for long. It will affect the rest of you though and well will you deserve it because of your seeming indifference. The Magic Circle and the IBM and all the other magic clubs don't seem to care the way they used to.

An old pro magician told me recently, "In twenty years time magic will be very different. It won't necessarily die but it will be different. And not in a good way"

I still remember what John Scarne wrote in a book years ago. He said words to the effect, "A good trick is like a precious diamond.It should be guarded carefully"

Alas many of the diamonds have been stolen.

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Christopher1979
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Joined: January 23rd, 2017, 10:46 am
Favorite Magician: Ricky Jay, Dai Vernon, Darwin Ortiz, Ed Marlo
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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 19th, 2019, 7:58 pm

It is always a hard pill to swallow when you realise things are changing around you, and mostly for the worse. The thing is, I am sure it has been the same for every generation since the beginning of time. It is hard to not be nostalgic about the things you grew up with but all I can say is when I was growing up magic was known as "light entertainment" and millions used to gather around their TV's on a Saturday night to watch the Paul Daniels Magic Show.

Now, I am getting sick and tired of seeing the next "Card Expert" on YouTube looking all Emo with the Ace of Spades Tattooed on the back of his hand with 101 piercings claiming he is the next incarnate of Erdnase.


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