The Pass

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 11th, 2019, 9:15 pm

Only a magician would stick a card into the deck from the inner end.
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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 12th, 2019, 6:09 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Only a magician would stick a card into the deck from the inner end.


I will concede that the inventor of the move stuck the card in at the outer end. Try Page 22 of Further Magic of the Hands by Edward Victor.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 12th, 2019, 11:02 am

Yes, that is well known. There are much earlier references.
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Christopher1979
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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 2:56 pm

After having a look at Derek Dingle's pass which to me is one of the best I have seen I decided to get out my copy of Derek Dingles the Complete Works. Firstly, one of the best books on card magic ever written. Secondly, in most of his work Dingle makes it apparent that if the pass is done properly then it should look like nothing has taken place. If nothing has taken place then the chosen card (to the spectator) should still be in the center of the deck. If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?...

I know generally, the audience would not know about such a control but I still stick with the fact that the pass is a very powerful tool IF DONT CORRECTLY and does not need any extra safeguards before or after. A simple jiggle or riffle with the thumb, while the pass is taking place, helps tremendously to make the pass invisible.

Also, I would be interested in knowing if most prefer transferring the bottom packet to the top or the top packet to the bottom?....

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 3:15 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Only a magician would stick a card into the deck from the inner end.


Wouldn’t this depend on the initial position of the card holding hand?

If the hand is already near the back of the deck it seems a little odd to reach around to the front.

I would agree that sticking out the front is more convincing - but is it more natural?

But, how many people stick cards into the middle of the deck in the first place? It’s almost as if you are arguing what color of someone’s middle eye is most natural.

If I’m holding the card by the bottom corner, it’s much more of a straight line to enter the deck from behind. Turning your wrist to go from the front seems less natural.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 3:18 pm

Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.


Sure, I agree on what you are saying but doe not both things go hand in hand. Their interpretation is based on what they see. If they see nothing move (lack of a control) then the outcome is the perfect effect as it looks impossible. Making a pass should look invisible so a shuffle nullifies the point of the pass in the first place...

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 3:45 pm

Christopher1979 wrote: If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?... .


NO, IT DOES NOT! In fact just the opposite! That is the thinking of a magician. The first thing you have to do to become a great magician is to learn to think like a layman. Laymen don't know that you can shuffle and control things. They assume that if you are shuffling that means you are shuffling. Does anyone here actually perform for laymen on a frequent basis?

The next time you do the pass try this as an experiment. Shuffle but watch their faces as you do so. Watch intently and if you have any powers of astute observation (as you should if you are a good magician) you will see them visibly relax as you shuffle. Watch their eyes. And forget Dingle. It is ME you should be listening to.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 3:52 pm

Incidentally if I were to do that daft depth thing (and I never do) I would also shuffle afterwards. You would be extremely daft if you don't.
Underestimate laymen at your peril.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 4:01 pm

performer wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote: If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?... .


NO, IT DOES NOT! In fact just the opposite! That is the thinking of a magician. The first thing you have to do to become a great magician is to learn to think like a layman. Laymen don't know that you can shuffle and control things. They assume that if you are shuffling that means you are shuffling. Does anyone here actually perform for laymen on a frequent basis?

The next time you do the pass try this as an experiment. Shuffle but watch their faces as you do so. Watch intently and if you have any powers of astute observation (as you should if you are a good magician) you will see them visibly relax as you shuffle. Watch their eyes. And forget Dingle. It is ME you should be listening to.


Forget about Dingle and listen to you.... :roll:

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 4:03 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.


Sure, I agree on what you are saying but doe not both things go hand in hand. Their interpretation is based on what they see. If they see nothing move (lack of a control) then the outcome is the perfect effect as it looks impossible. Making a pass should look invisible so a shuffle nullifies the point of the pass in the first place...


Yes. But it all depends on the final effect. Let’s say we put the card in the middle and they see nothing. They name a number, count down to it, and the card is there. Again, luck would dictate that this could have happened.

So the issue isn’t knowledge of control, as you alluded to in your original post to which I responded, but the nature of the effect and the conditions under which it occurs.

We may be arguing split hairs, but there are likely some people who would attempt to dismiss you point by saying ‘laypeople don’t know what a card control is so they would never think about it’.

And that may be true.

BUT they do know what a shuffle is. And showing the card on top after a shuffle can be explained by luck.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 4:04 pm

performer wrote:Incidentally if I were to do that daft depth thing (and I never do) I would also shuffle afterwards. You would be extremely daft if you don't.
Underestimate laymen at your peril.



Shouldn’t that depend on what you wanted the spectator to believe about the location of the card?

If it’s meant to be lost - then yes, shuffling makes sense

If we need them to believe it’s in that spot in the middle, shuffling undermines that belief

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Re: The Pass

Postby Christopher1979 » June 15th, 2019, 4:07 pm

th
Brad Henderson wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Christopher, the issue isn’t if the audience might suspect a control, but their reasonable interpretation as to the impossibility of the effect itself. If you put a card in the middle, I shuffle the deck, and show it on top-there’s a one in 52 chance it could’ve landed there by luck alone. However if the card goes into the middle of the pack and nothing moves, it’s appearance on top is indisputably impossible.


Sure, I agree on what you are saying but doe not both things go hand in hand. Their interpretation is based on what they see. If they see nothing move (lack of a control) then the outcome is the perfect effect as it looks impossible. Making a pass should look invisible so a shuffle nullifies the point of the pass in the first place...


"Yes. But it all depends on the final effect."




Yes, I do agree with you on that point and in all fairness, the actual type of effect that this would pertain too was never discussed

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:21 pm

Christopher1979 wrote:
performer wrote:
Christopher1979 wrote: If a shuffle is made after the card has been placed into the deck then this gives the idea that the card could have been controlled to the top?... .


NO, IT DOES NOT! In fact just the opposite! That is the thinking of a magician. The first thing you have to do to become a great magician is to learn to think like a layman. Laymen don't know that you can shuffle and control things. They assume that if you are shuffling that means you are shuffling. Does anyone here actually perform for laymen on a frequent basis?

The next time you do the pass try this as an experiment. Shuffle but watch their faces as you do so. Watch intently and if you have any powers of astute observation (as you should if you are a good magician) you will see them visibly relax as you shuffle. Watch their eyes. And forget Dingle. It is ME you should be listening to.


Forget about Dingle and listen to you.... :roll:


OF COURSE you should be listening to me rather than Dingle! I would have thought that perfectly obvious. And I am dead serious. He was never in the same league as me. And neither is anyone else come to think of it. They merely know how techniques work. I know how the human mind works.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Brad Henderson » June 15th, 2019, 4:25 pm

Which is why you have become so beloved on all these forums. ;)

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:26 pm

Thank you Brad. I do appreciate anyone who recognises my obvious genius in these matters.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Here is Derek Dingle performing. Not quite in the same league as me as must be perfectly obvious. Rather a good cure for insomnia I imagine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjPN5uOBX0E

Still, I think this is a better one. But it proves my point about the pass. He even has to cover the fact that the fishy procedure is fishy by saying that he is cutting the deck. I will concede the cleverness of it. That does save him shuffling but of course you can't do that with every bloody trick. If people burn his hands they may well see that something is not quite right. You can actually see him holding a break. No, dearie me-----of course you need to shuffle. What I say is always gospel in these matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5trn2FKOQ

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 4:52 pm

Here he is doing the pass again at 38 seconds in. You can see it from three hundred miles away. Of course he should bloody well shuffle afterwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGL9rEoW6iE

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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 15th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Video is not and has never been a way to assess somebody's actual talent at either presentation or sleight of hand. It's true of Dingle, Jennings, Slydini, Vernon, etc. ALL of these guys were absolute knock-outs using heavy sleight of hand in person. And their presentation was far more engaging in the flesh. You get zero sense of their actual ability while watching a video. Dingle's Pass was INVISIBLE when you were standing beside him and he was performing for you. I saw him do it (or failed to see him do it) hundreds of times over many years. It was supernatural it was so good.
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Re: The Pass

Postby Bob Farmer » June 15th, 2019, 5:47 pm

For a card control that is much easier than the Pass and just as efficient, see my move, "Passtitution," in Best of Friends III by Harry Lorayne, starting at page 403. If you don;t have the book, send me an email and I'll send you the move. Email to bammomagic@cogeco.ca

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Re: The Pass

Postby Krenz » June 15th, 2019, 7:52 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:It was supernatural it was so good.
Agreed. The best pass that I've [n]ever seen, bar none.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 15th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Video is not and has never been a way to assess somebody's actual talent at either presentation or sleight of hand. It's true of Dingle, Jennings, Slydini, Vernon, etc. ALL of these guys were absolute knock-outs using heavy sleight of hand in person. And their presentation was far more engaging in the flesh. You get zero sense of their actual ability while watching a video. Dingle's Pass was INVISIBLE when you were standing beside him and he was performing for you. I saw him do it (or failed to see him do it) hundreds of times over many years. It was supernatural it was so good.


I also saw Dingle do the pass live and in person. And I emphasise the word "SAW". I can do the pass twice as well as Dingle ever could but even in my infinitely superior capacity would never be daft enough to do it without shuffling afterwards. The reason you shuffle is because of INSURANCE that people don't catch on to what you are doing. And no matter how well and deceptively you do it, there will be somewhere between 2 times out of 10 that an astute spectator will catch on. He or she may not know what has happened but they will suspect that something has happened. At worst they will know that something has happened and at best will have a vague feeling that something is not quite right.

And that is if you are good at the pass. If you are just average then the percentage goes up 4 or 5 out of 10 rather than 2 out of 10. No. You really have to shuffle after doing the move. I know I am right. You get to learn a few things when you have been doing this stuff for real people for over 60 years.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Pete McCabe » June 15th, 2019, 8:09 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Hi, Pete:
Here's the reference:
"Convincing Tilt" (Daryl Martinez), The Last Hierophant, pg 39 (June, 1979)

Thanks for the reference.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 16th, 2019, 5:24 pm

Krenz wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:It was supernatural it was so good.
Agreed. The best pass that I've [n]ever seen, bar none.


I am highly tempted to make a video and show you a far better one.

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Re: The Pass

Postby Kent Gunn » June 16th, 2019, 8:32 pm

Mark,

Do you do a turnover pass, classic or some sort of cover pass?

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 16th, 2019, 10:30 pm

Kent. I am a most wondrous human being. I can do all sorts of passes. Oh, all right ---only two. Actually three I suppose since I rather like the bluff pass. And in fact all sorts of control methods - some easy but some difficult. However, when it comes to the passes you are discussing I use both the Paul Le Paul pass which is really the Hermann Pass and the Classic Pass. I never use the former for a control but for Cavorting Aces as described in the Stars of Magic. However for the latter (Classic Pass) I use it sometimes as a control but occasionally for other purposes too.


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Re: The Pass

Postby Kent Gunn » June 18th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Mark,

A Svengali deck, really?

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 18th, 2019, 10:15 pm

irrespective of how incredible any of the bygone luminaries previously mentioned may have been doing sleight of hand in person, if one's pass or (or any other move) can be seen on video, then it shouldn't be done. Not in this day and age; the game has changed. It's a different world now, where people are videoing all the time, and you are likely to be on Instagram or Youtube in a heartbeat for all the world to see. I have not had a show in the past several years where at least one person, often more, was videotaping everything i did with their phone. Of course, I don't have to worry cuz I have the best pass anyone's never seen. LOL. And to Performer's point - that knowledge and understanding of human nature (and, I would add, entertainment skills) are more useful tools for a working magician than any sleight of hand, I couldn't agree more.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 18th, 2019, 11:06 pm

Kent Gunn wrote:Mark,

A Svengali deck, really?


Don't be silly, Kent.

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Re: The Pass

Postby performer » June 18th, 2019, 11:10 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:irrespective of how incredible any of the bygone luminaries previously mentioned may have been doing sleight of hand in person, if one's pass or (or any other move) can be seen on video, then it shouldn't be done. Not in this day and age; the game has changed. It's a different world now, where people are videoing all the time, and you are likely to be on Instagram or Youtube in a heartbeat for all the world to see. I have not had a show in the past several years where at least one person, often more, was videotaping everything i did with their phone. Of course, I don't have to worry cuz I have the best pass anyone's never seen. LOL. And to Performer's point - that knowledge and understanding of human nature (and, I would add, entertainment skills) are more useful tools for a working magician than any sleight of hand, I couldn't agree more.


I think if people are videoing then you are far better off using one of the myriad other controls where that kind of thing makes no difference. In any event I have always believed that the use of subtlety, if possible, is always better than using a sleight. I am perfectly capable of using intricate sleight of hand but I prefer to use an easier method if it achieves the same objective.

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » June 19th, 2019, 8:53 am

Precisely, and this is why my practice/rehearsal regimen includes videoing myself, or better yet, having someone else do it from a number of angles. I have had people come back and tell me that they watched the video over and over and over trying to see how it was done (e.g. "how you got those 3 lemons in the cup," or "how you got my ring off that string and onto the wand") and yet they could not catch it. I am not trying to brag here, because only through painful experience was I motivated to get my routines to that level, and it took a lot of unglamorous, hard work. And this is not to say it's perfect by any means - it never will be - but it has improved vastly. I absolutely do not want laymen watching the video they took of me, then coming back and telling me, "I saw what you did."


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