"I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Talk about what is being written in other magic publications.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 24th, 2008, 9:13 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Im still waiting for someone to show me the section of the law that pertains to an ebook which forbids me from giving it away or selling it after I've paid for it.

In order to give away or sell Magic Nook e-Books you would be required to make an illegal (under the DMCA law) copy first. As other posters in this thread have already figured out, you only license a Magic Nook e-Book for your private use, you do not "own it." Copyright means RIGHT to COPY. Only you have the right to copy your own original works, as I have the right to copy mine. There is a time limit on this right, but it doesn't begin to apply until the Magic Nook goes out of business (since I copyright everything under the business name, not my own name). Unless the copyright is regularly renewed, this currently is (more or less because legislation keeps changing this part) 20 years.

This is stuff that you, as an author and publisher, should know. Helpful site: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 24th, 2008, 9:23 pm

If it's a file on your computer that you have paid for, you can transfer that file to a disc (not copy it, but move it), and then you can sell the file for what you paid for it, or give it to someone. That's not making an illegal copy. You don't seem to know what the hell you're talking about.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Joe Pecore » March 24th, 2008, 9:29 pm

How does this apply (from the same helpful site: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html) to the argument?

" 117. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs
(b) Lease, Sale, or Other Transfer of Additional Copy or Adaptation. Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. "


Is this the "first-sale doctrine" which allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained (as long as no additional copies are made)?


I think you also have to have an End User License Agreement (EULA) when you purchase, in order for it to be considered "licensed"
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Chris Aguilar » March 24th, 2008, 10:08 pm

An interesting article on rights one has to their e-book.

Hard Copies vs. Digital Copies

Another possible complication stems from the inherent difference between transferring an e-book and transferring a hard-copy book. The transfer of a hard-copy book is just that; the physical transfer of one copy. The transfer of an e-book, however, requires the digital recreation or copying of that e-book. Because the first sale doctrine allows transfers of only your particular copy, and not reproductions or recreations, a digital transfer of an e-book is probably impermissible. Thus, users of Kindle and the Sony Reader can only legally transmit works by selling the physical media on which they are storedbe that the e-book readers themselves or the users' hard drives.


To avoid any reproduction or transfer of the original copy, I wonder if the following scenario would be legal. The initial download is done to a cheap thumb drive (same as saving to a hard drive). That way one could sell/loan the combination of physical media and original downloaded copy. In this scenario, no unauthorized transfer or recreation of the original data would seem to be taking place.

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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 24th, 2008, 10:33 pm

If you download a copy onto your hard drive, and then you move that file (MOVE, not copy) onto a disc, which does not leave a copy on the original hard drive to which it was downloaded, then why can't you sell it?
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 25th, 2008, 12:38 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:If you download a copy onto your hard drive, and then you move that file (MOVE, not copy) onto a disc, which does not leave a copy on the original hard drive to which it was downloaded, then why can't you sell it?


Anyone who understands how computers work can tell you that the "Move" function is just an illusion. The original copy appears to have been erased from your hard drive, but in fact is still intact and just concealed by changing the directory that points to its position. That's why the first step taken in pressing a charge of criminal copyright infringement involves getting a subpoena for the hard drive, confiscating it, and taking it to a computer specialist who can reveal what is really contained on that hard drive.

Sophistry will not avail you in this argument if it went to court. If you tried it in real life, the copyright holder could end up owning Genii Magazine, which would not be a good thing either for you or for magic, so I hope you won't even think of trying it.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby pduffie » March 25th, 2008, 10:00 am

Files remain on your hard drive even if you send to Recycle Bin and then empty the bin.

There are several programs that you can use to do this. WinUndelete is one I have used.

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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 25th, 2008, 10:36 am

The copyright owner would not end up owning Genii magazine, you ridiculous [censored]. If I purchased an ebook, something I've never done, and then decided it wasn't for me, and gave it to a friend, no judge is going to award a magazine worth hundreds of thousands of dollars as damage. Don't be a nitwit. Making stupid statements like that only weakens ANY argument you make.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me a law where it states in clear language that selling an ebook you've bought, or giving it to someone, is illegal. Show me a case that has been prosecuted of an individual who has sold a single eBook that he bought to a friend because the purchaser no longer wants it.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 25th, 2008, 12:19 pm

I must be hitting a raw nerve if you feel you have to resort to name calling to win your argument.

If the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) of 1998 is not clear enough for you or if you are in denial of its provisions for copyright infringement penalties, that is your problem. Also, I am not your lawyer and do not feel obligated to instruct you by providing the case you mentioned, which would involve my doing the kind of legal searches that your lawyer is paid to do for you.

I tend to agree that a judge would be somewhat lenient to "an individual who has sold a single eBook that he bought to a friend because the purchaser no longer wants it." However, a publisher of magazines and books should know better and I feel a judge might find it necessary to "throw the book at him", especially if he used foul language as compensensation for inadequate arguments.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby NCMarsh » March 25th, 2008, 1:01 pm

Spellbinder wrote:
There is no "gotcha," nor was one intended. I merely thought it was interesting to find that thread and wondered why there were no negative comments about the price of e-Books versus the price of printed books connected with that. I thought that possibly a double standard was being, that's all. I was assured that no double standard was intended and that's the end of that.


Cugel did, indeed, reply in that thread:

Pity it's an ebook rather than an actual book. Priced like an actual book, however.


The comments here have been sharper. I think one reason is credibility. David Alexander -- not the author or publisher, and someone known on this board as a highly experienced, knowledgeable full-time professional performer of several decades -- came on to say that the book was worthwhile.

Here, we have a publisher come on -- calling himself "Phineas Spellbinder" -- pushing an electronic file with 10 card tricks by "MagicBob" for the same cost as one can get a real physical book with hundreds of tricks by someone with an earned reputation in our community. (and this is why I so appreciated and respected Mr. Pulver's taking the time to actually introduce himself)

There is no mention of why these ten tricks should be as valuable as the life's work of Paul Potassy, or (for an extra 1.5 card tricks) Geoffrey Durham...or why MagicBob's 10 card tricks are worth as much as hundreds of tricks developed over months and years by Derek Dingle, Larry Jennings, Darwin Ortiz etc. etc.

Now, maybe MagicBob's 10 card tricks rise to that level. But to me, it comes off as unbelievably arrogant to charge the same amount and then, when called on it, to talk about how you can zoom in on the page, see it in color, etc. etc. As if the content didn't matter.

Many of us suspect that if you had to take the risk of real paper publication, of spending the money and not knowing if all the copies would move, this publication never would have happened. But you don't have to worry about how many are sold...each copy is just profit...


It is my personal opinion that Marty Grams is the ideal person to review his work, since Marty is "king of gaffed cards" in a manner of speaking.


Really?

"The King of Gaffed Cards?"

Mr. Grams wrote a pamphlet on making double-faced, double-backed, and latex enhanced gaffs that was good. I also understand that magic's chop-shop did a dvd with him on the subject. To jump from that to "The King of Gaffed Cards" is absurd, particularly when there are also folks like Gary Plants in our community.

It also conflates being able to make a tool (or, more precisely, being able to teach someone to make a tool) with being the best judge of how the tool is used.

The comments about the specific reviewers are just asinine. Mead and Swiss are highly accomplished and highly informed professional performers with a strong and deep background in card magic. David Regal has his own very successful career -- and I don't know how extensively he performs professionally, but his work is unquestionably of a professional caliber and all are more than qualified to give a review of this offering.

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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Alexander Crawford » March 25th, 2008, 1:51 pm

Dear Richard

The e-book situation is a legal hot-potato at the moment.

First sale doctrine

Under the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. 109, "the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord".

This is the so-called First-sale doctrine and limits the copyright holders ability to control the change of ownership beyond the first sale as long as no additional copies are sold.

DMCA

Under the DMCA, "no person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title".

This prevents people from removing DRM in place on an e-book for instance - this might well prevent holders from exercising their secondary sale rights. The DMCA recognised this problem and instructed the Register of Copyrights and the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce. Their report to congress recommended no change to the law so the potential conflict still exists.

The DMCA does not however remove the first sale doctrine from e-books, so I do not quite understand the suggestion above that it does.

With very best regards

Alexander

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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 25th, 2008, 1:56 pm

The DMCA does not however remove the first sale doctrine from e-books, so I do not quite understand the suggestion above that it does.

THANK YOU! A voice of informed reason at last.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby naquada » March 25th, 2008, 2:01 pm

Spellbinder wrote:Now that is truly ostrich-like head-in-the-sand behavior, except that's giving ostriches a bad name because only humans act like that. This is really the first time the quality of the content has been mentioned in this thread. The focus, so far, has been e-Book versus paper book, no matter how good the content is.

The review page has been in plain sight ever since the book was completed. Did anyone bother to even glance at it? http://www.magicnook.com/magicbob/IHCT/reviews.htm

However, I am sure you will now begin to pull apart the reviewers, declaring them "inexperienced."


I think actually the point is that if you are SO confident that your eBook is better, you would be a fool to turn down a review in genii. You review section as far as I can see is on your own page, if there was a bad review of it, you're unlikely to print it. It would strengthen your case to have an independent review of it..
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby naquada » March 25th, 2008, 2:29 pm

Spellbinder wrote:Anyone who understands how computers work can tell you that the "Move" function is just an illusion. The original copy appears to have been erased from your hard drive, but in fact is still intact and just concealed by changing the directory that points to its position. That's why the first step taken in pressing a charge of criminal copyright infringement involves getting a subpoena for the hard drive, confiscating it, and taking it to a computer specialist who can reveal what is really contained on that hard drive.

Sophistry will not avail you in this argument if it went to court. If you tried it in real life, the copyright holder could end up owning Genii Magazine, which would not be a good thing either for you or for magic, so I hope you won't even think of trying it.


your second statement is just complete bollocks.. sorry.. you sound like a 5 year old...

with regards to your first..

anyone with an understanding of computers will know that a file is not ever really 'intact' on your machine, it's a bunch of sectors spread around your hard drive(s), a file allocation table will point to those sectors and areas of the disk, you are correct in that if you MOVE or COPY the file the sectors _may_ not move or change, but the file allocation table will be updated .

In the case of a delete, in the woefully awful world of useless operating systems (read windows, all flavors), yes your file is still there, but it's space marked as 'available' writing to the drive, _may_ over write sections of that file. So technically you are correct, some of the time.

On operating systems that UNDERSTAND how to work, deleting a file securely.. zero's those sectors on disk, removing the file from the machine..

I'd get your facts right before you start spouting off on that one...

with regards to eBooks, your eBooks, DMCA and the such, you're discussions on here have convinced me that I'd not want to buy an ebook from you.. regardless of 'lifetime updates' or corrections to mistakes or the ability to update sections that are not understandable... I don't feel any of those things are worth $40!! and if you happy to start tossing round rebukes to people like Richard et al, then I'd say you have no respect or understanding of the people that are keeping the real art of publishing alive.. I hate ebooks, they are awful things, emotionless bland, electronic excuses for a ghost of passion..

and anyone who knows me will tell you I love technology, except for where it doesn't fit... in the area of publishing.. publishing is books.. paper, the smell of fresh cut paper, and new bindings.. I dont want to print out some pages so why lay flat.. I want to hold and feel the weight of a tome thats had love, sweat and hard work put into it (and I'm sure you've done the same to your ebooks) but it's not the same, and dont try and convince me..

and don't try and correct me on the technology bit.. ;)

and to slam great books as you did earlier in your posting, just makes me wonder if you actually understand what it's like to keep real printing, real publishing alive..

ebooks and real books are different, but ebooks, should, be cheaper..
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Randy DiMarco » March 25th, 2008, 2:31 pm

I don't see how the statement that if you move a file it still exists on your hard drive, while technically true, has anything to do with this. For all practical purposes the file is unavailable to you after you get rid of the moved copy. You would need to go to extraordinary means to retrieve a copy of the file (using a program specifically made to restore deleted files). If you go to that trouble then you are violating the law.

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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 25th, 2008, 4:14 pm

Alexander Crawford wrote:First sale doctrine

Under the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. 109, "the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord".

This is the so-called First-sale doctrine and limits the copyright holders ability to control the change of ownership beyond the first sale as long as no additional copies are sold.

DMCA

Under the DMCA, "no person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title".

This prevents people from removing DRM in place on an e-book for instance - this might well prevent holders from exercising their secondary sale rights. The DMCA recognised this problem and instructed the Register of Copyrights and the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce. Their report to congress recommended no change to the law so the potential conflict still exists.

The DMCA does not however remove the first sale doctrine from e-books, so I do not quite understand the suggestion above that it does.


In 1976, e-mails as we know them today, did not exist, nor did pdf files. That section of the old copyright law referred to paper copies and phonorecords. I would agree that the docrtine of "First Sale" applies to e-Books sold on some kind of media, such as a CD-ROM, a DVD, or a USB removable hard drive. You can resell the CD, the DVD or the USB Media Drive.

We do not sell our pdf files on physical media. We deliver them directly to the purchaser over the Internet as digital files. Thus, under the DMCA, we have made use of a "technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title"... namely, Magic Nook e-Books. What opponents of the DMCA see as "secondary sales rights," we see as "secondary sales privledges." Nowhere in the Bill of Rights is there any mention of "secondary sales rights." You do not have a right to drive a car under the Bill of Rights, either. You have a privledge, licensed by the state in which you live. Owners of e-Books have a privledge of being able to read and share the secrets of creative minds, they can build the props described and perform them in public, they can even discuss the secrets with others, using their own words to describe them (unethical, but not illegal), but they have no rights to resell the files on which those secrets came to them, or even give them away to a third party.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 25th, 2008, 4:27 pm

naquada wrote: You(r) review section as far as I can see is on your own page, if there was a bad review of it, you're unlikely to print it. It would strengthen your case to have an independent review of it.


You did not look carefully enough on the review page.
http://www.magicnook.com/magicbob/IHCT/reviews.htm

If you had, you would see a link to the page on the Magic Cafe where the reviews were originally posted. Because Forums are prone to crashing now and then, I took the precaution of getting permission to display the reviewer's comments in a permanent space on The Magic Nook site.

Those reviews are only for Magicbob's e-Book "I Hate Card Tricks." If you further perused my site, you would see that some reviewers have negative comments mixed in with the compliments for other products:

http://www.magicnook.com/DVDs/ropereview.htm

The only negative reviews we are getting seem to be coming from this forum by people who have not read any of our e-books and are unlikely to ever read them. How much confidence do you think that gives me that we should ever depend on Genii reviewers to give our products a fair shake?
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 25th, 2008, 4:48 pm

Randy DiMarco wrote:I don't see how the statement that if you move a file it still exists on your hard drive, while technically true, has anything to do with this. For all practical purposes the file is unavailable to you after you get rid of the moved copy. You would need to go to extraordinary means to retrieve a copy of the file (using a program specifically made to restore deleted files). If you go to that trouble then you are violating the law.


For all practical purposes none of these arguments running around in the quagmire of this thread have anything to do with anything except attempting to get around either the laws of physics or the copyright laws. It boils down to the Yin and Yang Principle of Conjuring. "Us" against "Them." Die-hard Book Lovers against those willing to try new forms of media.

I'm a book lover too, but notice how naquada has twisted my words to make me appear as if I have "slammed great books." If that were so, why would I provide indices to those same great books in print on my web site as a free service to those who wish to use the new technology to be able to search them quickly and efficiently? I'm a hybrid. A person who appreciates both the convenience of the new forms and the content of the old. I'm also a collector of rare books and props, but those facts are being ignored in order to bolster the case against me as a technology geek and a threat to civilization as we know it.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby naquada » March 25th, 2008, 5:34 pm

Spellbinder wrote:You did not look carefully enough on the review page.
http://www.magicnook.com/magicbob/IHCT/reviews.htm

If you had, you would see a link to the page on the Magic Cafe where the reviews were originally posted. Because Forums are prone to crashing now and then, I took the precaution of getting permission to display the reviewer's comments in a permanent space on The Magic Nook site.

Those reviews are only for Magicbob's e-Book "I Hate Card Tricks." If you further perused my site, you would see that some reviewers have negative comments mixed in with the compliments for other products:

http://www.magicnook.com/DVDs/ropereview.htm

The only negative reviews we are getting seem to be coming from this forum by people who have not read any of our e-books and are unlikely to ever read them. How much confidence do you think that gives me that we should ever depend on Genii reviewers to give our products a fair shake?


I try and avoid the green place if I can, but thanks for pointing out I could have trawled through the comments there as well..

As to Genii Reviewers giving you a fair shake, I find interesting.. have any regular reviewers commented on this thread? IF i was going to buy a $40 ebook, which given this thread and what you've said, I'd like to see a independent (not a Cafe review) review.. $40 still seems very steep compared to the wonderful real books out there.. and you've still not stated anything that isn't part of a normal PDF released or document that seems to warrant the high price tag..

I'm not saying anything more..
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby John LeBlanc » March 25th, 2008, 8:21 pm

Spellbinder wrote:We do not sell our pdf files on physical media. We deliver them directly to the purchaser over the Internet as digital files. Thus, under the DMCA, we have made use of a "technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title"... namely, Magic Nook e-Books.


Unless you are lying, according to your web site you do not deliver your PDFs "directly to the purchaser." Since they are emailed, that involves technology with which you apparently are unfamiliar. It's called "store and forward." Pay particular attention to the "store" part of that technology.

By your own words, you are now indicting all the mail servers (and, by extension, server owners) who do you the voluntary service of storing temporarily and then forwarding along your email with encoded PDF as it winds its way to your customer. (Please note the use of the singular in that sentence.) At each stop along the way, you can be assured that the server admin did not do a military-grade hard disk wipe after kindly forwarding your email along.

At the end of the day taken in the aggregate, your responses in this thread say as much (or more) about "MagicBob" as it does you. If I actually had anyone I despised, I'd request you publish his e-books, too.

For some reason I have this mental picture of you dashing off another customer-unfriendly Genii post, then running around your room shouting "NO PDF FOR YOU!"

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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Spellbinder » March 25th, 2008, 10:01 pm

John LeBlanc: I am very sorry that you are afflicted with cyber Escamoteurettes and hope that someday a cure may be found for it. Owing to the syndrome, I cannot tell which parts of your strange post are as a result of the disease and which are not, so out of charity, I will not respond to any of it.
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Re: "I Hate Card Tricks" by Magicbob

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 25th, 2008, 10:09 pm

Yes, you are done responding, and this thread is now closed.
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