Please retire the term, "cardman."

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ASW
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby ASW » February 23rd, 2019, 2:26 am

Jackpot wrote:
Peter Ross wrote:RK referred to Hollingworth as "one of the best cardmen in the world." The plural implies that there is a current category of cardmen, distinct and separate from card magicians.


I thought Mr. Kaufman was implying that Mr. Hollingworth's card work was outstanding. I did not realize the true intent: To exclude me and everyone else who is not one of the best cardmen or card magicians in the world.


Lmao

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Bill Duncan » February 23rd, 2019, 3:16 pm

Roger M. wrote:I'm glad this thread was dragged up from the depths again ... the subject matter is absolutely riveting, and I was still confused about the entire issue ... even a little bit panicy as to what to call a (gulp!!) cardman in 2019.


You can call me "Bill."

"Mr. Duncan" if you're nasty.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 23rd, 2019, 8:59 pm

Does that make you "Billman"?
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Zig Zagger » February 24th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Ever come across the term "prestidigitatrice"?

Apparently it was used by Adelaide Herrmann, per this quote:

I do not wish to stand alone on the unique fact that I am the only prestidigitatrice on the stage today. I shall not be content until I am recognized by the public as a leader in my profession, and entirely irrespective of the question of sex.

Achievement over gender. I like that.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 25th, 2019, 12:43 pm

Interesting that she used that term, since the term, "Prestidigitator," itself, is gender-neutral. But she was clearly trying to make a point, and it is understandable why she would be, particularly within the context of her background and era. She was born of Belgian parents in London, England, and came to the United States in 1868, when sixteen years old. She married Alexander Hermann (Hermann the Great) in 1875, and in 1896, when Alexander passed away, she and Alexander's nephew, Leon, carried on as the featured performers in the show for several years. After that, she presented her own solo act in Vaudeville. But consider this: The 19th Amendment, granting women the right to vote in the U.S. was not even passed by Congress until 1919.

A couple of notable factoids in her fascinating story: (1) According to Magicpedia, after she married Alexander, "Adelaide was quickly brought into the Herrmann act, though in the earliest days she actually dressed in male clothes and was referred to as 'Mr. Alexander.' Eventually, her male clothes gave way to female attire as Adelaide became an important part in the illusions presented by Herrmann." (2) Also according to Magicpedia, "Adelaide was one of the few magicians to perform the infamous Bullet catch trick, which had been an occasional feature of her husband's act. On January 19, 1897, a month after his death, she stood in his place in front of a firing squad at the Metropolitan Opera House in New York City. Publicity material describes her as catching six bullets fired at her by local militiamen."

A remarkable magician! Wonder if David Blaine studied and/or was influenced by her...

You can read more about her here:
https://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.ph ... e_Herrmann

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 25th, 2019, 12:50 pm

ASW wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:
ASW wrote:I suppose an evolutionary psychologist would consider internet white knighting a legitimate form of mating strategy, but how effective could it be in a forum women never read?

;)


Perhaps our use of exclusionary language and the mindset it speaks to has something to do with the lack of women reading said forum?


Quite possibly. Or, as is more likely from a psychological perspective, women are usually more interested in people/aesthetics and men are usually more interested in things. Magic is boorishly technical, especially as you move towards the hobbyist end of the spectrum.

Of course I’m talking about a Gaussian distribution so there will be outliers. But the exception, being so rare, proves the rule.


Some magic IS boorishly technical - but not all. And art appeals to people of all sexes - though it’s true magic is not often presented artistically.

I’ve been teaching magic to young people for over 30 years. I can say that I gave as many - if not more - females sign up for my classes than males. Then again, that’s only after they have seen my magic. If they haven’t, usually it’s more male dominated.

Perhaps the issue isn’t with the interests of various sexes but in how those in a male dominated field represent it by focusing on elements of boorish technicalities and not the meaning of mystery.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 25th, 2019, 12:53 pm

Roger M. wrote:Has there ever been a women magician who was (either accidentally or intentionally) called a "cardman" either verbally to their face, or after the fact in print?

I didn't think so.

You're a man, and you're good with cards ... go ahead and call yourself a cardman, it's really only a few internet pundits who will apparently mind, so fill your boots!
If you're a woman who is good with cards ... well then call yourself whatever you want. Ignore the 5 or 6 men in the "men only" Genii forum who would presume not only to tell you women what to call yourself ... but they would also presume to tell all men what to call themselves.
In short form ... they see themselves as the authority to tell everybody what to think, say, and do!

Those male magicians eh? ... give 'em a sponge ding-dong and the "bra trick" and they suddenly think they call all the shots!

Get real.


No one is presuming to tell you what to do. No one is telling women what they can or should call themselves.

No one has addressed that at all.

Though I would hope that should women decide they want to identify themselves in a specific way we would honor that.

What you HAVE seen here is an observation that referring to the body of people who work with cards as ‘cardMEN’ linguistically excludes some people.

That’s true, right?

If it is true, then why continue using that term. It’s inaccurate after all - and we want to be accurate, right?

Though it does beg the question - why use a term related to gender at all? IS it relevant that the person is male or female?

I don’t think so.

Do you?

So why would we designate people with a word that conveys irrelevant information?

We want our language to be both accurate AND efficient? (I know many of you wish I were more efficient with MY words). Right?

So why are you getting so upset at acknowledging that cardmen in any context is either inaccurate or irrelevant - and resistant to changing to better word choices?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Leo Garet » February 26th, 2019, 12:00 pm

Will this do?
Dexworker.

Decks Worker is okay, if a bit clumsy. Dexworker, however is a new word and should, perhaps, be cherished as such.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 26th, 2019, 12:28 pm

I would think a dexworker is someone who did card tricks for money.

If one is strictly an amateur and shows their card tricks around freely, would that make them a dut? And one who never showed their wares a drude?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby webbmaster » February 27th, 2019, 12:56 pm

I have seen cardist or cardiste I think. But why not learn some coin tricks and maybe a rubber band trick and call yourself a "sleight-of-hand artist" which I like because it has 'artist' in it. You can still include card tricks.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby webbmaster » February 27th, 2019, 1:00 pm

If it is Tarot cards they can use 'witch'.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 27th, 2019, 1:13 pm

Leo Garet wrote:Will this do?
Dexworker.
Bikes or Tally Ho becomes dexual discrimination?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Leo Garet » February 27th, 2019, 1:13 pm

webbmaster wrote:I have seen cardist or cardiste I think. But why not learn some coin tricks and maybe a rubber band trick and call yourself a "sleight-of-hand artist" which I like because it has 'artist' in it. You can still include card tricks.


Or learn some coin tricks and call yourself a coinman.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby PressureFan » February 27th, 2019, 1:16 pm

I'm a diceperson!

PressureFan

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Leo Garet » February 27th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Charlie Miller was a Diceman.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby PressureFan » February 27th, 2019, 1:37 pm

That's the reference.

PressureFan

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 27th, 2019, 1:58 pm

Derek Dingle referred to himself as a "sleight of hand artist." I believe his business card had that expression printed on it.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Zig Zagger » February 28th, 2019, 4:36 pm

Interesting that she used that term, since the term, "Prestidigitator," itself, is gender-neutral.

I would say that the French original, prestidigitateur, is certainly male and thus lent itself to a female version, quite like acteur/actrice (=actor/actress).
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 28th, 2019, 8:48 pm

The word "actress" has fallen out of use. Both male and female are now referred to as "actors."
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Daniel Z » March 1st, 2019, 9:24 am

Depends where you are apparently. This today from the BBC under the headline: Feminine Job Titles Get Go-Ahead In France.
"Decades after other French-speaking countries adopted feminine names for professions, the official guardians of the language in France have also backed the change."
If context isn't everything it still sure a big part of everything.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47414140

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Zig Zagger » March 1st, 2019, 4:31 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:The word "actress" has fallen out of use. Both male and female are now referred to as "actors."

Understood. But I was referring to the use en Francais.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Ray J » March 2nd, 2019, 10:25 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Derek Dingle referred to himself as a "sleight of hand artist." I believe his business card had that expression printed on it.


Hyla M. Clark in " The world's greatest magic" says he called himself that but his card read Prestidigitator.
It is on page 42.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby ASW » March 4th, 2019, 6:09 am

Honestly, who even cares?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Ted M » March 4th, 2019, 7:59 am

Mostly those who recognize that women are people, and that magic is populated by more people than just men.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 4th, 2019, 9:41 am

Ted M wrote:Mostly those who recognize that women are people, and that magic is populated by more people than just men.


Well said. I will add these people likely see magic as something more than just boorishly technical details. Card tricks without humanity offer little more than self pleasure and puzzles.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby ASW » March 4th, 2019, 8:14 pm

Ted M wrote:Mostly those who recognize that women are people, and that magic is populated by more people than just men.


I recognise both but I think that language changes with society. The more women get into magic the more the language will change. The art form is sadly dominated by men - likely because it’s a bit geeky about methodology. Or because it attracts a preponderance of guys who use it as a substitute for social skills.

But there have been some positive influences recently, particularly the showcasing of some terrific performers on “Fool Us” and in places like the “Shezam” podcast which is hosted by two younger female performers.

My who cares comment related solely to those men who want to call themselves “cardmen”. Really, who cares? Language will evolve naturally, not because a bunch of men argue over it in one corner of a magic forum.

Surely were all magicians? That’s the term I’d use.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » March 4th, 2019, 10:56 pm

There are many reasons women are less attracted to card magic than men are. The term "cardman" when referring to a man who does card tricks is not one of them.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 4th, 2019, 11:36 pm

Jackpot wrote:There are many reasons women are less attracted to card magic than men are. The term "cardman" when referring to a man who does card tricks is not one of them.


Speaking as you are as an expert on why women make choices they do?

I have taught magic to young people for over 30 years. I have had several young females tell me they loved magic but never thought they could be a magician because they were females.

Do you not think Our language choices impact theIr perception?

Andrew has half the equation - if our language will change the more women get into magic, then it must be equally true that our language reflects the condition which excludes them now.

It seems some are ok with waiting for the women to come in and clean up our mess.

If we aren’t willing to make changes now - why would they want to enter the field in the first place. How inviting are many of the positions expressed here?

It’s funny how a bunch of men get so upset at the idea that their ideas may no longer be welcome in the field and are protesting as loudly as they - imagine how it must feel from the other side when you have never been welcomed equally.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » March 5th, 2019, 12:25 am

Brad Henderson wrote:Speaking as you are as an expert on why women make choices they do?

Mr. Henderson, while others have, I have not claimed to be a spokesman for women.

Brad Henderson wrote:I have taught magic to young people for over 30 years. I have had several young females tell me they loved magic but never thought they could be a magician because they were females. .

And was the major reason they felt this way was because a man who performs cards tricks is referred to as a cardman?

Brad Henderson wrote:Do you not think Our language choices impact theIr perception?

Yes, but the language choice being so stridently attacked is not a major cause to their perception.

Brad Henderson wrote:Andrew has half the equation - if our language will change the more women get into magic, then it must be equally true that our language reflects the condition which excludes them now.

I agree that there are conditions that exclude women. But that is not the issue which has been raised. We are being told that the term cardman (when used to describe a man who performs card tricks) is a huge obstacle which prevents women from participating in magic.

Brad Henderson wrote:It seems some are ok with waiting for the women to come in and clean up our mess.

"Our mess" is simply the term cardman? There are much greater issues.

Brad Henderson wrote:If we aren’t willing to make changes now - why would they want to enter the field in the first place. How inviting are many of the positions expressed here?

Now you're getting warmer.

Brad Henderson wrote:It’s funny how a bunch of men get so upset at the idea that their ideas may no longer be welcome in the field and are protesting as loudly as they - imagine how it must feel from the other side when you have never been welcomed equally.

And it's ironic how a bunch of men get so upset when it's pointed out that their ideas may not actually be the answer to the problem.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby skmayhew » March 5th, 2019, 1:19 am

Jackpot wrote:And it's ironic how a bunch of men get so upset when it's pointed out that their ideas may not actually be the answer to the problem.


That's not irony, Alanis.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 5th, 2019, 8:35 am

Jackpot wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:Speaking as you are as an expert on why women make choices they do?

Mr. Henderson, while others have, I have not claimed to be a spokesman for women.



Really?

Jackpot wrote:There are many reasons women are less attracted to card magic than men are. The term "cardman" when referring to a man who does card tricks is not one of them.

_______

Brad Henderson wrote:I have taught magic to young people for over 30 years. I have had several young females tell me they loved magic but never thought they could be a magician because they were females. .

And was the major reason they felt this way was because a man who performs cards tricks is referred to as a cardman?



As I said, they didn’t think they could be a magician because they were a girl. They didn’t see girls as magicians and they never heard magicians referee to as girls. So yes - the fact that card magicians are called exclusively card MEN does suggest to them that it isn’t something they should/could do.

———-

Brad Henderson wrote:Do you not think Our language choices impact theIr perception?

Yes, but the language choice being so stridently attacked is not a major cause to their perception. [\quote]

And you know this how? Either it helps or it hurts. Either the language is accurate or it isn’t. Calling a group of people ‘men’ is exclusionary. Gender has nothing to do with magic so injecting it into our jargon adds nothing.

———-

Brad Henderson wrote:Andrew has half the equation - if our language will change the more women get into magic, then it must be equally true that our language reflects the condition which excludes them now.

I agree that there are conditions that exclude women. But that is not the issue which has been raised. We are being told that the term cardman (when used to describe a man who performs card tricks) is a huge obstacle which prevents women from participating in magic.


Who said huge? Seems to me you are trying to erect a straw man here.

Let try a different tact - give me a single reason why we should keep card man/men in our lexicon? It doesn’t accurately describe the population of people who do card tricks, and it injects an element of gender which is irrelevant to the issue. So what is gained by keeping it? What is lost by abandoning it?
———

Brad Henderson wrote:It seems some are ok with waiting for the women to come in and clean up our mess.

"Our mess" is simply the term cardman? There are much greater issues.


So your ‘argument’ is we should pick up our underwear because the floor needs vacuuming?

If we arent willing to clean up the little things, how will the room ever get clean?
———-

Brad Henderson wrote:If we aren’t willing to make changes now - why would they want to enter the field in the first place. How inviting are many of the positions expressed here?

Now you're getting warmer.



Remove your hands from over your eyes and you might see I’m more than warm. If we aren’t willing to include them with our words, why would they believe we might be willing to include them in our actions?
———

Brad Henderson wrote:It’s funny how a bunch of men get so upset at the idea that their ideas may no longer be welcome in the field and are protesting as loudly as they - imagine how it must feel from the other side when you have never been welcomed equally.

And it's ironic how a bunch of men get so upset when it's pointed out that their ideas may not actually be the answer to the problem.



May not. But that suggests that it also may. So what’s the harm in trying.

The word doesn’t accurately reflect the body of people who do card tricks and injects an element of gender irrelevant to the discussion - so again I ask, what is gained by keeping it and what is lost by losing it?

Clearly things still need improvement. Why abandon a possible - if partial - solution just because it won’t fix everything?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 5th, 2019, 12:28 pm

Some in our craft may gravitate to predictions, some to ropes, some to cards and others to coins. And what of those who prefer to use assistants, optical effects, mechanical props, borrowed decks of cards? Name that pigeonhole: Tamarist? Erdnoid? Annemaniac? Marlot?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Luigi Anzivino » March 5th, 2019, 1:59 pm

Jackpot wrote:I agree that there are conditions that exclude women. But that is not the issue which has been raised. We are being told that the term cardman (when used to describe a man who performs card tricks) is a huge obstacle which prevents women from participating in magic.


I believe you are being intentionally obtuse here, as the point has been made several times that it is not a problem to refer to an individual who identifies as a man as such, but rather it is problematic to refer to the collection of people who performs card tricks as "cardmen," as that term excludes 51% of the population. Again, this is such an obvious and uncontroversial point that it takes astounding mental contortions (or intentional obtuseness) to deny it.

Brad makes a fantastic point: let's not wait for women to come in here and clean up our mess. We can recognize that a simple and rather small adjustment in language moves the needle in the direction of inclusivity and balance, and just do that because it's the right thing to do, not because we've persuaded women to confirm what is plain and obvious.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Luigi Anzivino » March 5th, 2019, 2:01 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Magician works. Do we say actor or do we divide the notion into actor, actress and await a deluge of genderjargon?


The point is: we don't refer to actors as acting men.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby skmayhew » March 5th, 2019, 2:24 pm

Luigi Anzivino wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Magician works. Do we say actor or do we divide the notion into actor, actress and await a deluge of genderjargon?


The point is: we don't refer to actors as acting men.



Because...

By definition the word 'actor' is gender neutral and refers to a person who acts, male or female.

By definition the word 'actress' refers to a female who acts.

Actor
Dictionary result for actor
/ˈaktər/
noun
noun: actor; plural noun: actors

1.
a person whose profession is acting on the stage, in movies, or on television.
synonyms: performer, player, trouper, theatrical, dramatic artist, thespian, member of the cast, artist, artiste; More


Actress
Dictionary result for actress
/ˈaktrəs/
noun
noun: actress; plural noun: actresses

a woman whose profession is acting on the stage, in movies, or on television.




Handy Google tip: type 'define desired word ' and google will give you the definition of the desired word.

And there's this: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/submission/13379/cardman

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 5th, 2019, 2:49 pm

Luigi Anzivino wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Magician works. Do we say actor or do we divide the notion into actor, actress and await a deluge of genderjargon?


The point is: we don't refer to actors as acting men.


The magic equivalent of "actor" is "magician."

There have been mostly "cardmen" and few "cardwomen" in the history of our field.

One cannot say that of actors, because there have been many actors and actresses for hundreds of years.

It is only within the past 30 years or so that "actors" has generally come to mean both men and women. Prior to that "actress" was commonly used. (And is still used.)

But "magician" is not specific enough in our field (or it doesn't seem to be specific enough for many). Thus we have the terms "cardmen" or "cardman" (no equivalent in acting) and we are wrestling with silly alternatives like "cardperson."

Of all the alternatives, I find "cardiste" not bad, though it sounds a little high falutin.

"Cardworker" is laborious. One syllable too many. (Though the term "doveworker" has always thus, and there was never a "doveman," though he might make a good superhero.)

And thus we end up with "cardician," which also has three syllables, but rolls off the tongue more easily.

Shall we vote? Yes, I think it's now time to vote and cease arguing.

You don't have to vote based on my selections. Feel free to nominate any of your own. But I'm done with arguing about it.

So VOTE.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Joe Naud » March 5th, 2019, 3:00 pm

I vote for Doveman, he is sure to save us from this thread. :lol: :shock:

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Bill Mullins » March 5th, 2019, 3:32 pm

If you read the recollections of groundbreaking women who became fire fighters (formerly called "firemen"), or joined the enlisted ranks of the U.S. Air Force (formerly called "airmen") or became cops (formerly called "policemen"), you will certainly see stories of sexism and harassment they overcame. However, whether or not "policeman" or "airman" or "fireman" was a term that excluded them doesn't seem to come up.

If I had to guess, I'd bet that the biggest thing that keeps girls/women from participating is that when they do show up at magic functions, they get treated as girls/women (for example, hit on) rather than magicians. Talk to Sara Crasson about this sometime.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2323
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Pete McCabe » March 5th, 2019, 3:40 pm

With respect, Richard, the point of this thread is not to vote on an alternative to cardman, or to argue about which is the best choice.

The point is to try to improve the inclusion of women in magic. One thing we can do to help is to try to get people to stop using sexist language that assumes that the generic magician is a man. This work is ongoing and will not end with a vote.

If you're tired of the argument, please just skip this thread. But keep it up. It is serving a valuable purpose.

skmayhew
Posts: 93
Joined: October 6th, 2008, 3:58 pm

Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby skmayhew » March 5th, 2019, 4:32 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:If I had to guess, I'd bet that the biggest thing that keeps girls/women from participating is that when they do show up at magic functions, they get treated as girls/women (for example, hit on) rather than magicians. Talk to Sara Crasson about this sometime.


Also Lauren Cohen:

http://explauren-life.blogspot.com/2015/08/being-magician-as-woman.html


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