Please retire the term, "cardman."

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Luigi Anzivino
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Luigi Anzivino » November 29th, 2018, 11:30 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:As another contestant in the "Re-name Game," I nominate
"Human Race"

"Human" (Adjective) - "mid-15c., humain, humaigne, 'human,' from Old French humain, umain (adj.) 'of or belonging to man' (12c.), from Latin humanus 'of man, human.' " (Online Etymology Dictionary).

"Race" - "Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
[Example] ‘people of all races, colours, and creeds’ )." (Oxford Dictionary)
"one of the main groups that humans can be divided into according to their physical differences, for example the color of their skin
[Example] 'the Caucasian/Mongolian, etc. race.' " (Oxford Learner's Dictionary).

Thus, while "human race" is a term universally used to refer to or describe or include all the people of planet earth, the populice of earth, as a whole, is neither "human," nor is it a "race."

"Huperson Species"?


https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/30/Appeal_to_Extremes

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 29th, 2018, 12:06 pm

So I clicked on your link, Luigi, entitled "Appeal to Extremes," which states: "Description: Erroneously attempting to make a reasonable argument into an absurd one, by taking the argument to the extremes."

You have apparently overlooked that my comment regarding the term, "human race," was not an argument; just a factual observation. But if you think this is an argument and I am somehow your opponent, then I will happily concede. You win.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 29th, 2018, 6:58 pm

You can just call me "Bub."
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Bob Farmer
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Bob Farmer » November 30th, 2018, 6:42 am

prestideckitator

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erdnasephile
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby erdnasephile » November 30th, 2018, 8:19 am

Escardmoteur (apologies to Harry Riser)

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 30th, 2018, 12:00 pm

Gents (because despite my request to more than one female magician to throw their two cents in here, none have), I have done a bunch of trimming and deleting on this thread.

I am happy that so many are contributing, and I think it's great that Peter Ross started this thread. I'm also grateful to Roger M. for his contributions.

Despite that, some personal animus has appeared along the way and has now been deleted.

In addition, while referring to "men" is wholly appropriate, describing us all as "old, fat, and white" has no bearing here. You could be young, thin, and a person of color (any color other than white) and still hold similar opinions.

Thank you.
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Jackpot
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » November 30th, 2018, 12:41 pm

How about "Cardigan"?

Magician: "Hey, watch this magic trick!"

Spectator's inner monologue: "I hope he doesn't ask me to pick a card again."

(I use "he" only because all participants in this thread have identified themselves as men. We haven't heard from the lady card magicians. I suspect they don't have time because they're out performing while we men are following this thread.)
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The Burnaby Kid
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 30th, 2018, 7:09 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Gents (because despite my request to more than one female magician to throw their two cents in here, none have), I have done a bunch of trimming and deleting on this thread.


You see? Now they got us fighting over them in a brand new way!
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby skmayhew » November 30th, 2018, 7:34 pm

Well, the votes have been counted and it's official!

The term that will replace 'cardman' in the lexicon is....

Cardwoman!!

Usage notes:
1) Plural: Cardwomen.
2) Cardwoman and it's variants are gender neutral and imply nothing beyond an interest or facility in card table artifice.

Examples:
"Lauren Cohen is an excellent cardwoman."
"The Fat Brothers are terrific cardwomen."

The phrase, "Jason England it one heck of a manly cardwoman," will not be interpreted to be ironic.

Cardwomen of the world unite around your leader! I'm looking at you Derek DelGaudio.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Bill Duncan » November 30th, 2018, 10:58 pm

Every time I look at this thread I'm reminded of a Gloria Steinem quote about job requirements which can be found here:
http://famousquotefrom.com/gloria-steinem/

Using gender modifiers for job titles that have nothing do with gender just seems foolishly old fashioned to me. I'm not offended (on anyone's behalf) about it. Just feels like listening to old people talk about watching a video tape when they're viewing a DVD. Or looking at a YouTube video.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Peter Ross » February 20th, 2019, 8:45 pm

"Now I would say he is one of the best cardmen in the world." - RK on Guy Hollingworth, March Genii 2019

That sentence is like saying, "Now I would say he is one of the best spacemen in the world."
By the way, here is a list of NASA's current "spacemen": https://www.nasa.gov/astronauts/biographies/active

Bill Duncan wrote:Using gender modifiers for job titles that have nothing do with gender just seems foolishly old fashioned to me.


RK, I'm curious, is the reason you continue to use "cardman" over "card magician" in a contemporary context because you've just used it your whole life and it's a hard habit to break? Or do you assign it some significance that "card magician" doesn't convey? Or do you notice it but shrug your shoulders because you think it's silly to change it? Or didn't you notice it at all?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » February 20th, 2019, 9:20 pm

If Mr. Hollingworth is offended by being referred to as a "cardman" Mr. Kaufman should not describe him as such. It is clear that Mr. Ross would be offended so he should not be called a "cardman".

The term "spaceman" refers to one who travels outside of the Earth's atmosphere or a visitor to Earth from outer space. It is a more imprecise word than astronaut. An alien with tentacles is most certainly a spaceman, but he can't hold a little finger break so not all spacemen can be cardmen.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Roger M. » February 21st, 2019, 12:15 am

I'm glad this thread was dragged up from the depths again ... the subject matter is absolutely riveting, and I was still confused about the entire issue ... even a little bit panicy as to what to call a (gulp!!) cardman in 2019.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 21st, 2019, 5:57 am

Jackpot wrote: An alien with tentacles is most certainly a spaceman, but he can't hold a little finger break so not all spacemen can be cardmen.


That's a good one , Jackpot. You are such a card, man! It should be pointed out, however, that the alien with tentacles may have a formidable repertoire of self-workers and great presentational skills, or even staggering mentalism abilities...

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby erdnasephile » February 21st, 2019, 9:12 am

Jackpot wrote: An alien with tentacles is most certainly a spaceman, but he can't hold a little finger break so not all spacemen can be cardmen.


Hold on a second.

"SpaceMAN?" I'm not sure aliens from another planet would like that term. ;)

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 21st, 2019, 9:49 am

Why such resistance to using terms that are inclusive and accurate?

Having said that, Guy is clearly a card man because he happens to be male. So there is no issue in referring to him as one, though to say he is one of the best card men does open up the possibility that he isn’t the best of all card people, just those that identify as male. Of course, just as there is no issue in identifying him as a card man, there seems little is gained by bringing his gender into the discussion in the first place, which card man as a term does, whether anyone likes it or not.

Words have meaning and that meaning is malleable. Just as no one will ever listen to the comedy of Bill Cosby the same way as they did before they became aware of his crimes, no one will ever see the term card man again and read it without the issues of gender being raised - regardless of ones opinion about gender issues.

And one could make the case the same is now true for the term card people. there are some on this thread who I have no doubt upon seeing that used will automatically be triggered into considering gender issues. So that’s not changing.

So where does that leave us? Seems to me that the best course of action is to defer to Accuracy: if one wishes to discuss a particular person and they feel that person’s gender is relevant, then card man or card woman should be the better choice. if one is speaking of all people who do card magic, then card people or card workers is the more accurate and less problematic phrase.

So which is more important - accuracy and inclusion, or doing things the way they have always been done because that’s the way things have always been done.

And if the later, should I presume those advocates still refer to black people as ‘colored’, eschew air travel because if god had meant us to fly he would have given us wings, and Happily go to doctors who don’t wash their hands because this whole disinfectant thing is just a fad perpetrated by snowflakes with dependent immune systems?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Pete McCabe » February 21st, 2019, 11:03 am

Clearly, an alien with tentacles could hold many breaks, and much better than a human.

Other possible terms to replace Cardman:
Cardperson
Cardhuman
Cardmeat
Cardmonculus
Cardhominum
Cardo Sapiens
Cardmortal
Anthrocardus
Cardape
Cardfeatherlessbiped
Cardividual
CardiB
Cardfolk
Cardbody
Cardsoul
Cardspirit
Cardunit

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 21st, 2019, 12:01 pm

The only two phrases that I can come up with that don't sound idiotic are "cardworker," and "card magician." Then there is "cardician," which is only understood by other magicians.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Ted M » February 21st, 2019, 12:15 pm

Those who prefer cards as their magic prop of choice are card handlers or card workers. Amateurs might be card enthusiasts.

Those who delightedly focus on the sleights are card mechanics.

Those who place more importance on the effect's presentation are card magicians.

A scant few are card artists. Hollingworth fits here.

All these terms are richer and more descriptive than "cardman," and none of them are unnecessarily gender-specific.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 21st, 2019, 12:26 pm

Well said, Ted M.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 21st, 2019, 4:36 pm

The phrase "card mechanic" is generally used to indicate a card cheat, I believe.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Anthony Vinson » February 21st, 2019, 5:03 pm

How's about card trickster? In folklore a trickster is a well-known character, usually wise and intelligent, who uses his or her intellect to perform tricks on others, sometimes to teach, sometimes to inspire, and sometimes to entertain. Some tricksters were cruel, and some were always out for their own interests, but many were benevolent and fun-loving.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 21st, 2019, 6:50 pm

There are other archetypes that can inform the character choices of those who perform magic with cards. The trickster is but one. I think it’s a poor choice in that it is too limiting.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Anthony Vinson » February 21st, 2019, 8:27 pm

Oh, I agree. I was being tongue-in-cheek and playing off a pun, but it didn't translate well...

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » February 22nd, 2019, 12:56 am

Pete McCabe wrote:Clearly, an alien with tentacles could hold many breaks, and much better than a human.


But none of them can be called a little finger break.

I find the reawakening of this topic after almost three months of dormancy to be ironic. Some how Mr. Kaufman is being insensitive to women and his vocabulary excludes them from card magic. Then I look at the cover stories of the last four issues of Genii. Words carry meaning, but actions speak louder than words.

We have yet to hear from any (use the plural form of a noun to describe a non-male person which offends you the least) on the subject.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby MagicbyAlfred » February 22nd, 2019, 9:21 am

I kind of like "Cardologist." Just think how impressed laymen would be when we told them that after earning a "B.S." in Prestidigitation, we graduated, with honors, from Magical School with a degree in Cardology.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Peter Ross » February 22nd, 2019, 10:02 am

jackpot, this thread was started by pointing out the irony of using an outdated male-specific term to describe card magicians in a Genii issue with a female card magician on the cover.

It's great that there are female magicians on the cover of Genii, but it does not obviate the consideration of language usage within the pages of the said magazine. RK is a man of words. He obviously appreciates the conversation and has given suggestions to improve the situation, unlike others here who feel the need to push back or condescend.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby erdnasephile » February 22nd, 2019, 12:53 pm

I reread this entire thread just because I haven't had a headache in a while and I thought it might be as fun as I remembered--I was wrong. ;)

With respect to all, I think the overarching point is fair when considering the use of a more inclusive term to refer to a group. IMHO, there is certainly nothing wrong in trying to avoid inadvertently excluding a group of people by our published words. Mr. Ross seems like a good dude, and I think these suggestions come from a good place. In fact, I doubt that those posting so far would disagree with this notion.

However, what I think some folks are pushing back on is the implication that if you have a different take on the issue, you are a foul ignorant creature indeed. You hate and denigrate women and are nothing but an archaic troglodyte fit only for the wood chipper. While I've used over-the-top language to make the point, it's hard to deny that there is certainly a whiff of this notion implied in this thread, whether it is specifically stated or not; hence, some of the reactions. Other push back may be coming simply because people don't like it when they perceive they are being told what to do or at what they perceive to be disproportionate outrage. That doesn't necessarily make them evil, uncaring, condescending, or stupid, IMHO. Rather, they may be potential allies who are coming at this from a different angle.

Secondly, (and please bear with me here) as part of a small ethnic minority where I live, it kind of irks me to hear opining from the majority population that Asians are like this, or Asians get offended at that, etc. Really? As if Asians are one hive mind with monolithic traits. It's gotten so bad that my when my child at university introduces herself by her given name, frequently the woke people will ask her: "No, what's your real (meaning Asian) name?" They frequently explain they don't want to offend her by "forcing" her to use her "Anglo" name. While this is, I suppose, laudable in some sense, in another, it's completely wrong-headed. It, in fact, accomplishes the very thing the well-meaning presumably wish to avoid--making the minority feel singled-out and out of place.

I obviously cannot speak for all minorities (ethnic, gender, or otherwise), but IMHO, if you want inclusion then just please treat us with the same level of respect and courtesy as everybody else. We just want to be recognized and appreciated as individuals, not patronized by those around us, burdened with weird stereotypes, or treated with kid gloves. Many of us are quite capable of speaking up for ourselves and don't really need people to be offended for us. Most of us are not weaklings, unlike how some TV talking heads portray us as. Rather, we have to survive in the real world, which in my case, requires a thick skin, and a willingness to overlook most day-to-day offenses, lest I spend all my time bent out of shape.

That's why I can see where Jackpot and Roger M are coming from. The lack of input from women on this issue makes these discussions essentially a bunch of (self-identified) guys sitting around arguing over a subject that the allegedly-offended may or may not care a whit about. Therefore, I'd encourage publishers to ask their women readers how "cardman" makes them feel and base any editorial decisions off of that. (It sounds like RK has already done so, and kudos to him).

That said, I strongly suspect that the stuff that really needs to be cleaned up are the sexist ways women are treated on stage, at conventions, and in person. To Mr. Ross' and Mr. Henderson's point, that doesn't mean we guys should not try to improve the way we speak, and I think discussions such as this which prompt us to consider our implicit biases are useful. I just think they need to be put in context of the overall issues of the current magic meta, while avoiding biting and devouring each other in the process.

Let the flames begin! ;)

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Peter Ross » February 22nd, 2019, 2:51 pm

erdnasephile wrote:
The lack of input from women on this issue makes these discussions essentially a bunch of (self-identified) guys sitting around arguing over a subject that the allegedly-offended may or may not care a whit about. Therefore, I'd encourage publishers to ask their women readers how "cardman" makes them feel and base any editorial decisions off of that. (It sounds like RK has already done so, and kudos to him).


I respectfully disagree with this point. I don't believe a male editor needs to take a poll of women to make editorial decisions regarding updating gender use in language in the publication. Just like I don't need to take a poll of my female students in order to stop calling the robots I teach them about "he/him."

It diminishes the collected intelliegence of the members of this forum by absolving them of the right and responsibility to debate issues outside of thier gender.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby erdnasephile » February 22nd, 2019, 3:09 pm

Fair point, Mr. Ross. I appreciate your respectful reply (and thanks for teaching the next gen!).

If I came across as disrespecting anyone's intelligence or right to debate here, I clearly made an error in doing so and I certainly apologize for that. I support people, regardless of gender, who wish to discuss gender issues---respectful debate is good in my book!

Rather, what I should have said is that it might make sense to find out what members of a possibly affected group really think rather than exclusively considering what a bunch of us think. It's just I've been humbled by how little I appreciate some of the nuances involved in gender issues and I've made some big mistakes in the past when I've tried to fix things without first asking for the perspective of those most affected.

Nevertheless, I would certainly defer my personal feelings to the good judgement of the editors of their respective publications to do as they deem best, as is their right.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby ASW » February 22nd, 2019, 4:35 pm

I suppose an evolutionary psychologist would consider internet white knighting a legitimate form of mating strategy, but how effective could it be in a forum women never read?

;)

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Anthony Vinson » February 22nd, 2019, 4:44 pm

Language changes. Duh. The current shifts and changes have been simmering since the 1960s and seem to be reaching a boiling point. Gender and race inclusive pronouns and proper nouns are all the rage, and in most cases for good cause. Conversations like this one help move things along, even if they fail to change minds. While what to call a magician who specializes in cards may seem trivial, it matters in the larger context, and at some point it will work itself out with the rest. In the meantime, there will be detractors.

I remember when the race designation “negro” was removed from federal fingerprint cards and other documents. That was in the 70s. I also remember hearing people gripe about it, insisting it was a group of people being upset over something that shouldn’t matter. Yeah, right. And while my memory might be playing tricks on me with this one, I also seem to recall “oriental” being a choice as well. (I rolled hundreds of prints and filled out hundreds of cards back then, but so much time has passed that sometimes I am not certain what happened and what might have happened. Anybody else have that problem?)

No matter what we eventually call a card magician – erdnasephile? – there will be those who wish things were like they were back in the good old days. You know, when card people knew their places and magic was great. Until then, I tend to agree with Brad’s suggestions, although I would add card handlers to the mix. Prosaic? Sure, but also accurate.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jack Shalom » February 22nd, 2019, 8:23 pm

Cardiste has some history, for the effete.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » February 22nd, 2019, 8:24 pm

Peter Ross wrote:jackpot, this thread was started by pointing out the irony of using an outdated male-specific term to describe card magicians in a Genii issue with a female card magician on the cover.

It's great that there are female magicians on the cover of Genii, but it does not obviate the consideration of language usage within the pages of the said magazine. RK is a man of words. He obviously appreciates the conversation and has given suggestions to improve the situation, unlike others here who feel the need to push back or condescend.


Mr. Ross, this thread began in the way you describe and, based on your opinion, within the context of the DeLand article I can understand your point. I don't consider the differing opinions within this thread to indicate an attempt to prevent a discussion of the language used in Genii. People of good faith can disagree.

The thread was awakened from hibernation because Mr. Kaufman referred to Mr. Hollingworth as a "cardman". This term accurately describes Mr. Hollingworth because he is a man who is exceptionally skilled at card magic. I get the impression that you consider using the term cardman in any context (other than historical) inappropriate and harmful. I don't. I think that Laura London and Jen Kramer are skilled magicians who perform with cards. I believe that referring to either of them as a cardman would be not only incorrect, but inappropriate.

You feel cardman is outdated and should be retired to historical writings. That's fine. You shouldn't use a term in your writing which you abhor.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Roger M. » February 22nd, 2019, 8:34 pm

Has there ever been a women magician who was (either accidentally or intentionally) called a "cardman" either verbally to their face, or after the fact in print?

I didn't think so.

You're a man, and you're good with cards ... go ahead and call yourself a cardman, it's really only a few internet pundits who will apparently mind, so fill your boots!
If you're a woman who is good with cards ... well then call yourself whatever you want. Ignore the 5 or 6 men in the "men only" Genii forum who would presume not only to tell you women what to call yourself ... but they would also presume to tell all men what to call themselves.
In short form ... they see themselves as the authority to tell everybody what to think, say, and do!

Those male magicians eh? ... give 'em a sponge ding-dong and the "bra trick" and they suddenly think they call all the shots!

Get real.

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Peter Ross » February 22nd, 2019, 10:30 pm

ASW wrote:I suppose an evolutionary psychologist would consider internet white knighting a legitimate form of mating strategy, but how effective could it be in a forum women never read?

RK, that is an uncivil, unfunny, mean-spirited personal accusation. I hope you will remove it from this discussion.

-----------

Jackpot wrote:The thread was awakened from hibernation because Mr. Kaufman referred to Mr. Hollingworth as a "cardman".


RK referred to Hollingworth as "one of the best cardmen in the world." The plural implies that there is a current category of cardmen, distinct and separate from card magicians. Contrary to what others seem to be trying to pigeonhole me into, I am not trying to protect female professional card magicians from being offended by the term. No, mainly I fear it is up and coming female and male card magicians who will see the term used contemporaneously and repeatedly in a serious magic publication and internalize it as the accepted lexicon.

It's not about a woman being called cardman to her face (that's ridiculous). It's about maintaining an outdated Madmen-era term used for an important general magic categorization that subtly re-enforces obsolete (one would hope) mores and values. This issue is not as overt as some of the other sexist problems in magic that others have mentioned, but it's language, and language is important, especially for newcomers to the art.

If this topic should be a non-issue on the Genii forum because, as some have shrugged, the forum is hopelessly all-male, then what about the print publication? Is that also so far gone, male centric-wise, so as not to merit concern about inclusive terminology? Or does it need to be on national television, say on Fool Us, where Penn might call a magician, "one of the greatest cardmen?" Is that the point where we should take up the topic?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » February 22nd, 2019, 10:31 pm

ASW wrote:I suppose an evolutionary psychologist would consider internet white knighting a legitimate form of mating strategy, but how effective could it be in a forum women never read?

;)


Perhaps our use of exclusionary language and the mindset it speaks to has something to do with the lack of women reading said forum?

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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby ASW » February 22nd, 2019, 11:02 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
ASW wrote:I suppose an evolutionary psychologist would consider internet white knighting a legitimate form of mating strategy, but how effective could it be in a forum women never read?

;)


Perhaps our use of exclusionary language and the mindset it speaks to has something to do with the lack of women reading said forum?


Quite possibly. Or, as is more likely from a psychological perspective, women are usually more interested in people/aesthetics and men are usually more interested in things. Magic is boorishly technical, especially as you move towards the hobbyist end of the spectrum.

Of course I’m talking about a Gaussian distribution so there will be outliers. But the exception, being so rare, proves the rule.

Jackpot
Posts: 176
Joined: June 8th, 2016, 12:38 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » February 22nd, 2019, 11:04 pm

Peter Ross wrote:Contrary to what others seem to be trying to pigeonhole me into, I am not trying to protect female professional card magicians from being offended by the term. No, mainly I fear it is up and coming female and male card magicians who will see the term used contemporaneously and repeatedly in a serious magic publication and internalize it as the accepted lexicon.

Or does it need to be on national television, say on Fool Us, where Penn might call a magician, "one of the greatest cardmen?" Is that the point where we should take up the topic?


Okay, you're not trying to protect the female professional card magicians. You are trying to protect the up and coming female and male card magicians. Got it.

I think we should wait until it's on national t.v. Never going to happen. Problem solved.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

Jackpot
Posts: 176
Joined: June 8th, 2016, 12:38 am
Location: Santa Rosa, CA

Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jackpot » February 22nd, 2019, 11:41 pm

Peter Ross wrote:RK referred to Hollingworth as "one of the best cardmen in the world." The plural implies that there is a current category of cardmen, distinct and separate from card magicians.


I thought Mr. Kaufman was implying that Mr. Hollingworth's card work was outstanding. I did not realize the true intent: To exclude me and everyone else who is not one of the best cardmen or card magicians in the world.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.


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