The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Discuss the latest feature articles in Genii.
Jason England
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Jason England » February 3rd, 2008, 1:33 am

Gangrini's distinction is interesting, but even without it (conceding that the double lift was invented prior to 1901), I still think the double lift would be the most important sleight of the 20th century.

The fact that it wasn't invented in the 20th century doesn't prevent that.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 3rd, 2008, 8:08 am

And why would the Double Lift be the most important sleight of the 20th century? It's a poor man's version of the Top Change, a far superior sleight. Both sleights were used for a hundred years prior to 1900, so I don't think they qualify.
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Terrence
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Terrence » February 3rd, 2008, 9:39 am

With a double-backer it fooled Houdini.

Bob Farmer
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Bob Farmer » February 3rd, 2008, 10:21 am

This Zarrow vs. Elmsley discussion (and the double-lift variant) assumes that some sort of objective analysis will yield an answer. I don't deny that it might, but for practical purposes, a subjective analysis is more useful (and more convincing to me).

For the stuff I do, have done and enjoy most, I don't need a Zarrow shuffle, I need an Elmsley Count.

Now I can do a fairly deceptive Zarrow shuffle, and several other false shuffles, so my preference is not because of a lack of ability, it's just that for my repetoire, I need the Elmsely more (though, I do use the Zarrow for Triumph and some other stuff).

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Cugel
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Cugel » February 3rd, 2008, 11:18 am

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
And why would the Double Lift be the most important sleight of the 20th century? It's a poor man's version of the Top Change, a far superior sleight. Both sleights were used for a hundred years prior to 1900, so I don't think they qualify.
Just consider the huge amount of assemblies, two card transpos and packet tricks that have relied on the DL and been devised in the 20th C.

Anyway, it's fun to kick it around.

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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Terrence » February 4th, 2008, 8:46 am

If DL is encompassing 2 cards as 1 principle, then this is a huge element of card magic, including the Elmsley Count (2 card pushoff) -- maybe this is where Jason is going.

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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Bob Farmer » February 4th, 2008, 2:43 pm

So much for the topic -- this was intended to be a discussion of Genii.

Let's move the Zarrow vs. all other sleights discussion to its own topic and leave this topic as a pristine bowing-and-scrapping area for this issue.

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Cugel
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Cugel » February 4th, 2008, 2:52 pm

Originally posted by Bob Farmer:
So much for the topic -- this was intended to be a discussion of Genii.

Let's move the Zarrow vs. all other sleights discussion to its own topic and leave this topic as a pristine bowing-and-scrapping area for this issue.
You meant "bowing and scraping"? Some of us are already scrapping.

Terrence
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Terrence » February 4th, 2008, 3:04 pm

Guilty.

Skipping the side issue of the title's claim, I'd have to say that this is the most in-depth article I've ever read documenting the development and credit for a major card sleight.

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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Brad Henderson » February 16th, 2008, 9:57 pm

Finally got to the article.

EXCELLENT.

However...on pg 80 Ben references a 6 page letter that is "reproduced on these pages."

None of the Marlo letters which were reprinted match the date and I find no letter reproductions.

Am I missing something?

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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Richard Hatch » February 16th, 2008, 11:23 pm

Originally posted by Brad Henderson:
Finally got to the article.

EXCELLENT.

However...on pg 80 Ben references a 6 page letter that is "reproduced on these pages."

None of the Marlo letters which were reprinted match the date and I find no letter reproductions.

Am I missing something?
Brad, I believe this was raised in the earlier thread about the February issue. At the risk of redundancy, here's David Ben's reply:
Originally posted by David Ben:
I don't have the article in front of me - I gave my copy of Genii to a friend earlier this afternoon - but I imagine that you are referring to a letter in which Marlo illustrated a variety of multiple cut sequences for getting into the shuffle, sequences that he submitted to Jay Marshall for the New Phoenix. Marlo used his typical mode of illustration - dividing the deck into four blocks (A-B-C-D) to illustrate the movement of the various blocks during the pre-shuffle cutting sequence. I had assumed that Richard was going to include a page or two from this letter as visual support material for the article but never expected for him to reproduce the entire missive. In my opinion, the cut sequences are somewhat convoluted. I understand, however, that some may be interested in this sort of detail and will consider various options for reproducing the letter either more fully in the Zarrow book or through an alternate medium.

Frankly, I'm pleased that many of you have the interest and have taken the time to read the piece. So, thanks.

Philippe Billot
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Philippe Billot » February 17th, 2008, 2:36 am

Maybe it would have been best to write :

"One of the most subtil sleight of the 20th century"

But if this case, there is no discussion !!

I appreciate the Zarrow Shuffle but I like also the Marlo's Delayed Strip Out Shuffle (page 24 of Riffle Shuffle System - 1959)

NB : The double TURNOVER was used by Moreau at the end of the XIXme century

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Steve Bryant
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Steve Bryant » February 17th, 2008, 7:08 am

Bob Farmer writes
(though, I do use the Zarrow for Triumph and some other stuff).
Why? I've never understood why virtually all modern card magicians prefer the Zarrow to the Triumph shuffle, and especially for performing Triumph. In that trick (or for that matter any time) you can stop the T. shuffle halfway through and show that all the cards are interlacing as they would for a legitimate shuffle, something you cannot do with the Zarrow. Ron Wilson did it that way and fooled me badly the first time I saw him do it - I thought he was using double backed cards to make it look that clean. Having the single card fall on top is also advantageous in the trick Triumph (and you can do the trick with a single Triumph shuffle), although of course you can also do that with the Zarrow. Perhaps it's as simple as "I want to learn only one false shuffle," but I suspect there is some deeper reason for the Zarrow's favor that I have been missing.

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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 17th, 2008, 8:19 am

Philippe wrote: "NB : The double TURNOVER was used by Moreau at the end of the XIXme century."

Can you elaborate on this, please? Do you mean Double LIFT or Double TURNOVER, and can you be more specific about the year.
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Philippe Billot
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Philippe Billot » February 17th, 2008, 10:44 am

See Magic without Apparatus by C. GAULTIER (1914) (translated by J. HUGARD in 1945), page 215 :

The Card that Retains its Position by (Pierre)Moreau (1849-1890)

For those who can read french, see :

http://www.artefake.com/spip.php?article306

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 17th, 2008, 12:43 pm

Philippe, unless I'm misreading it, what is cited is the one-handed open change which Harry Lorayne turned into a secret sleight as The Ultra Move.

Then several double LIFTS are used in the trick, but I see nothing about turning a double card face up and letting it fall back onto the top of the deck.
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Philippe Billot
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Philippe Billot » February 17th, 2008, 1:10 pm

I realize that it's not totally clear but page 216, at the end of the paragraph 1, we read :

"You grasp the desired card (now second from top) between the fold of the top joint of the little or third finger (in the upper right corner) and the fold of the second joint of the thumb (on the lower corner) and it is this card that you TURN OVER while showing that it has returned to its original position."

Now, sorry for my bad english in my trying to explain my thoughts.

If you grip the card with the right hand PALM DOWN, you have to TURN OVER YOUR HAND to show the face of the card, but if you grip the card with the right hand PALM UP, you can TURN OVER the card on the deck to show his face.

Yes, I know, there is no mention of this but it is conformed to the text " THE CARD THAT YOU TURN OVER".

May be I extrapole but in reading the recollections of Raynaly (his pupil), we learn that Moreau was a very very good cardman. For instance, he did also tabled palms. Not a conventional sleight at his time.

But I can make a mistake...

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 17th, 2008, 1:58 pm

It reads to me that the card is being lifted off the deck and turned over by turning the hand over.
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Philippe Billot
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Re: The Best Magic Magazine Of All Time

Postby Philippe Billot » February 18th, 2008, 12:32 am

To be complete, in the second phase of the routine, paragraph 2, it is a double LIFT :

"Bring the right hand OVER THE PACK exactly as before (?), and LIFT the two cards at once (squared as if they were one only), showing the face of the second..." Here, it's very clear.

But, curiously, Gaultier doesn't write "exactly" the same thing in the paragraph 1.

It's for that I think Moreau used the two techniques, LIFT or TURNOVER. Don't forget that in france he was one of the first to work in close-up condition, that is seat down at a table in a caf, in front of some people seat down on the other side of the table.

It's only a speculation because I can't proove it formally.


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