Please retire the term, "cardman."

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ASW
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby ASW » March 12th, 2019, 7:56 am

I feel we are really close to achieving consensus.

Roger M.
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Roger M. » March 12th, 2019, 1:33 pm

I feel we have already achieved a prime example of just how "dead" you can beat any given topic before it shuffles its mortal coil.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 12th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Or we have proven how intractable some types of people can be. I think it stems from fear of seeing their monopoly on culture wane. Some people are just too attached to things and feel that these values must be preserved - because they MUST be preserved.

The good news is these people will eventually die out, taking their antiquated ideas with them, and the new ideas which have taken root will flourish. So the result is inevitable assuming we don’t end up in a war resulting in a handmaid’s tale type situation.

Leo Garet
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Leo Garet » March 12th, 2019, 2:24 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Or we have proven how intractable some types of people can be. I think it stems from fear of seeing their monopoly on culture wane.


Indeed we have. Indeed it is.

Brian Hebert
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brian Hebert » March 12th, 2019, 2:36 pm

So is the term cardwoman not correct? Would a woman find that offensive? Perhaps we should ask a woman. Are there any women here on the forum reading this that would like to have their say? There must be some that read this and shake their heads.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 12th, 2019, 3:00 pm

Perhaps our attitudes as reflected in our language choices pushed them away long ago.

Steve Mills
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Steve Mills » March 12th, 2019, 8:31 pm

It’s somewhat pathetic that looking forward to the death of those in disagreement is the ultimate conclusion here.
Let him rave, that men may know him mad.Yul Brynner as Rameses II

Bill Duncan
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Bill Duncan » March 12th, 2019, 9:10 pm

I find it puzzling that anyone could study magic for very long yet fail to understand how the subtleties of language change people's perception of reality. How would magic work, if which words we use didn't matter?

Just sayin'

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 13th, 2019, 12:49 pm

Brian Hebert wrote:So is the term cardwoman not correct? Would a woman find that offensive? Perhaps we should ask a woman. Are there any women here on the forum reading this that would like to have their say? There must be some that read this and shake their heads.


The term "cardwoman" is not incorrect, it's just not used. The general movement has been to eliminate language that specifies gender in favor of all-inclusive terms such as "actor."

Thus we have "magician," "prestidigitator," "cardworker," and so on. Note that there has never been a gender specific term for a female magician who does stage illusions, such as "illusionness." Both males and females have always been "illusionists."

In another niche area, the term "dominatrix" is commmon. It refers only to women. Is there a corresponding term for males who do the same type of thing?
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Brad Henderson
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 13th, 2019, 1:05 pm

Yes. Dom and Domme are two ways that those who take the top role in BDSM would identify themselves if they wanted to convey gender. I would think Dominatrix would be a version/extension of Dom which is short from Dominant. so it seems to parallel the actor/actress construction.

The BDSM community has long embraced gender neutral terms such as ‘top’ and bottom’ as indicators of the power role. Specific dynamics would be conveyed with more specialized terms, like Master(Mistress)/slave or Dom(me)/sub etc.
Last edited by Brad Henderson on March 13th, 2019, 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 13th, 2019, 1:08 pm

. . . Or so I’m told.

Pete McCabe
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Pete McCabe » March 13th, 2019, 2:24 pm

I can't speak for everyone, but my goal in this conversation is not to change the minds of people who argue to keep sexist language, but to influence the many people who don't post and who haven't made up their minds on the subject. I don't know the ratio of lurkers to posters on this thread, but if it's at all typical, there are many, many more people watching than posting.

In so many of these kinds of things, many if not most people follow the crowd. In the past, in magic, that has meant using sexist (and racist, etc.) language, because that's what everyone else was using. The more people who stand up for change in this area, the more newcomers are likely to adopt the new attitudes. In my experience, this is how fundamental change is achieved in society.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Brad Henderson » March 13th, 2019, 2:41 pm

I would still like to see one of those so reticent to change offer a single example of what we lose by abandoning this term and what is gained by keepIng it.

It is unfathomable to me why they feel the need to cling to such antiquated words.

skmayhew
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby skmayhew » March 13th, 2019, 2:46 pm

So a joke and a response to the joke have been deleted from this thread.

This is a perfect example of why predominantly old white men post to this board.

Of course this comment will be deleted soon as well. Sigh.

I think I'll go post some honest book reviews and prepare to be banned.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 13th, 2019, 2:58 pm

Peter Ross wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:It is neither inaccurate or irrelevant if it is applied to a man or men.


When there is no female equivalent, then the terms are exclusionary and inappropriate, which are worse.

We'll have more to discuss when a woman, transgender, genderfluid... decides to say how they'd like to be called.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Peter Ross
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Peter Ross » March 13th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:We'll have more to discuss when a woman, transgender, genderfluid... decides to say how they'd like to be called.


We already have an example from Laura London. She has stated (in the "Magic is Dead" book), that she prefers to be called a sleight of hand artist.

And just because no women have contributed to this thread, it should not preclude the discussion about updating the lexicon of magic from continuing to happen.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Please retire the term, "cardman."

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 13th, 2019, 9:23 pm

skmayhew wrote:So a joke and a response to the joke have been deleted from this thread.

This is a perfect example of why predominantly old white men post to this board.

Of course this comment will be deleted soon as well. Sigh.

I think I'll go post some honest book reviews and prepare to be banned.


I found the joke and reply to be counterproductive to the conversation. Don't be offended.
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