Packet trick creator info requested

A place where beginners can participate, ask questions, and post their views. However, beginners typically ask a lot of questions about sources, tricks, books, and so on. In fact, all magicians are interested (or should be) in the provenance of tricks, ideas, and related matters. This department will service these needs.
Brad Henderson
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Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 9:49 am

I’m looking for a definitive title/credit for a common packet trick. I bought it in 1980ish as The Nebula Card. I don’t recall an name attached to the trick.

Four aces are shown via a biddle type count. (In truth there is an extra ace). Each of the four aces appears to turn face down. In reality you are seeing the back of the extra ace each time. At the end, the backs of the cards are all different

I have seen many magicians perform this trick. Was Nebula Card the first version? Any idea who is to be created for it? Has a trost type feel to it.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Joe Lyons » March 1st, 2019, 11:06 am

Looks like Loftus put it out, perhaps they could help.

Or it might be found in a Paul Hallas book.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 1st, 2019, 11:11 am

I believe that the first person to recreate "Twisting the Aces" in this manner (rather than a card turning face up, the turned card is shown face down and thus masquerades as all the Aces at different times) is Karl Fulves.

It's a rotten idea because the magic which occurs is through inference--the Ace that has turned face down is the only one whose face is not seen, rather than the direct magical occurrence where the turned Ace is now face up and seen to be different every time.
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 11:17 am

It’s all about the changing backs. The twisting is just an excuse to imply they have the same backs. Not a great trick to perform BUT it is a great trick to teach. Allows someone new to sleight of hand to gain experience handling double cards in a low risk manner.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 11:18 am

Joe Lyons wrote:Looks like Loftus put it out, perhaps they could help.

Or it might be found in a Paul Hallas book.


I recall the packaging being familiar - so I assumed it was either zanadu or loftus. That jibes with my memory. Will see if they know.

Thanks

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 1st, 2019, 11:20 am

Does this predate the Fred Kaps twisting item from his lecture?
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Ian Kendall » March 1st, 2019, 11:29 am

Heh. If it helps, I recreated the exact routine in the late 80s :) I still have the cards somewhere. (It used a red/blue double back, so you got three changes. In a Piatnik rainbow deck, the queens all had ladies on the back, so I used them, with some story about asking women out, but they blushed and turned away. Then they all got angry (blue backs with a flushtration count) and then turned over to show the picture backs)

I did read something about the original years ago, but the name has escaped me.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Paul Richards » March 1st, 2019, 11:41 am

Vic Trabucco had one of the earliest versions that I’m aware of, it may be the first. His effect “Twist” appeared in Jerry Mentzer’s Card Cavalcade II, which was published in 1974.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 11:58 am

Ian Kendall wrote:Heh. If it helps, I recreated the exact routine in the late 80s :) I still have the cards somewhere. (It used a red/blue double back, so you got three changes. In a Piatnik rainbow deck, the queens all had ladies on the back, so I used them, with some story about asking women out, but they blushed and turned away. Then they all got angry (blue backs with a flushtration count) and then turned over to show the picture backs)

I did read something about the original years ago, but the name has escaped me.


The version I learned does not use a double back card, but I have seen that version as well. This one uses just an extra card. The nice thing about it is after the last ace reverses, it is flipped face up. This theoretically could mitigate the assumptive nature of the proof - albeit a little late.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 12:00 pm

Paul, will see if I have a copy of that. Thanks.

Jon, I don’t recall that in the Kaps notes I have, but the only thing I think I do recall from those is toosheroon. Was this in the notes? Did he have more than one set? Will see if I can find these as well!

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 1st, 2019, 12:19 pm

Hi Folks, the item was in the film shown at his lectures and also in the Kaps on Cards writeup. 1972?
https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/book/559
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Curtis Kam » March 1st, 2019, 12:20 pm

I thought that approach to the twist was Bro.John’s. What’s the Fulves reference?


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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 1:02 pm

Jon,

I have consulted the kaps notes. The principle is used here, but it’s a different handling. One, there is an ascanio spread as opposed to the biddle count. The four cards turn face up as part of the handling. And the extra card is ditched by returning the packet to the deck.

BUT the principle is in play - extra card allowing the turnover by inference.

So - how similar must something be before it’s different?

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby jason156 » March 1st, 2019, 1:07 pm

Didn't Sam Schwartz publish/market something similar, the packet trick with the mirrors at the end?

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Philippe Billot » March 1st, 2019, 1:37 pm

I think it's Marlo who, the first, used an extra card to do some one at a time reverse with a small packet of four or five cards but he didn't describe a changing color back at the end.

Ses The Linking Ring, september 1963.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Tom Frame » March 1st, 2019, 1:37 pm

Brad,

In the late 70's, I bought the same packet trick that employed the same method. It was called "Back Flip." The original cards deteriorated long ago, but it's easy enough to assemble the cards. Four Aces with differently colored backs and one, say, blue-backed Ace. Throw in the Biddle handling and you're good to go. I like the effect and still use it occasionally.
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby erdnasephile » March 1st, 2019, 1:50 pm

Here's the Conjuring Archive's listing for these types of effects: https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/category/1431

The Fulves reference RK cites is from Epilogue 6 (pg 47 in the collected work) called "Reversing Aces" under the pen name, "R. Gironda". In Epilogue 8 (pg 64) the Lin Searles suggested addition of a color changing back kicker is hidden away at the bottom of the page and does not appear in the table of contents for the collected volume.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Joe Lyons » March 1st, 2019, 2:02 pm

erdnasephile wrote:Here's the Conjuring Archive's listing for these types of effects: https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/category/1431

The Fulves reference RK cites is from Epilogue 6 (pg 47 in the collected work) called "Reversing Aces" under the pen name, "R. Gironda". In Epilogue 8 (pg 64) the Lin Searles suggested addition of a color changing back kicker is hidden away at the bottom of the page and does not appear in the table of contents for the collected volume.


Yes, and there is further history on page 41 of The Secrets Of Brother John Hamman.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 2:54 pm

Excellent. Thanks. Will check the epilogue when back at the house!

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 1st, 2019, 4:27 pm

@Tom, the Backflip is a different looking trick. It appears to start with one ace face up among the group of four cards. Each count/displacement brings a different ace face up - then the cards are shown to have a different color backs. Then the backs are shown to have a third color. Peter Peilikan has work on the count needed to start with a face down display. :)
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Philippe Billot » March 1st, 2019, 5:14 pm

Back Flip was described in Epilogue no. 19 and created by Sam Schwartz.

Reversing Aces was dated July 1969. Ralph Gironda is one of the pen name of Karl Fulves.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby erdnasephile » March 1st, 2019, 5:17 pm

Anyone know why Mr. Fulves was so keen on those multiple pen names?

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 1st, 2019, 9:22 pm

The fulves’s version, like the kaps, is very similar to the particular version I learned, but the handling is still different.

Having said that, I think it’s fair to consider this and the Searles contenders for the earliest version of the trick - though the nebula card handling adds the ability to show the last ace after it having turned over. (This predates the kaps notes by 2 years).

There is a reference to a version in pentagram by Piet Forton. Will see if I can find that in my files!

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 1st, 2019, 10:09 pm

jason156 wrote:Didn't Sam Schwartz publish/market something similar, the packet trick with the mirrors at the end?
Ed Hollins '' version was Flipped Out. :)

Bob Farmer has some work on this kind of trick from the changes side and as the "outs" side where they name one and that's reversed or blank.

On the history side ;) - folks seem to want to give the plot to Hofzinser so maybe he'd get the prize and we can save the fussing? :D
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 2nd, 2019, 12:29 am

For me, it’s not about awarding a prize, but filling in a gap. I’ve seen this trick performed by many people, all of whom bought it or learned it somewhere, and none could tell me where. Just couldn’t believe, for some reason, that the version I bought for $1 (I think) those many years ago was the seminal example. Felt I should know what was and who was responsible.

Purely selfish reasons entirely.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Pete McCabe » March 2nd, 2019, 2:21 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:folks seem to want to give the plot to Hofzinser


I do a Hofzinser type thing using this technique. A selected card is secretly added face down to the four aces. Do the count sequence (I think the one I use is from Hartman) to show each ace face down in turn. After each one, ask "is that the suit of your card?" When the face down ace is the same suit as the selection, turn it over to reveal that it has changed into the selection.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Denis Behr » March 2nd, 2019, 2:30 am

erdnasephile wrote:Anyone know why Mr. Fulves was so keen on those multiple pen names?

He himself knows and writes about this HERE.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Philippe Billot » March 2nd, 2019, 3:15 am

Brad Henderson wrote:The fulves’s version, like the kaps, is very similar to the particular version I learned, but the handling is still different.

Having said that, I think it’s fair to consider this and the Searles contenders for the earliest version of the trick - though the nebula card handling adds the ability to show the last ace after it having turned over. (This predates the kaps notes by 2 years).

There is a reference to a version in pentagram by Piet Forton. Will see if I can find that in my files!


Piet Forton's version was named Queenie and was described in New Pentagram, Vol. 1, no. 2, April 1969, page 11 but he didn't used the extra card in the same manner. His roots were Vernon and Marlo.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 2nd, 2019, 11:27 am

Thanks Philippe.

I am ashamed to admit that I don’t have a file of the New Pentagram in my library. I may have obtained a copy in a recent collection I bought. But will have to check in storage. Thanks for the help!

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby erdnasephile » March 2nd, 2019, 11:40 am

Denis Behr wrote:
erdnasephile wrote:Anyone know why Mr. Fulves was so keen on those multiple pen names?

He himself knows and writes about this HERE.


Ah...very interesting--thank you, Mr. Behr.

Fulves writes that all of his pen names were real people. So, who was the real Ralph Gironda? Was he a known magician at the time?

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 2nd, 2019, 1:19 pm

In at least one instance, DeLand used the name of one of his co-workers at the mint as a company name!
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Bob Farmer » March 2nd, 2019, 5:57 pm

I first learned this idea in Fred Kaps lecture notes way back in the mid 1970s. Are there earlier references?

Sam Schwartz's "Back Flip" is featured in my booklet, "Bammo 666" but I've updated it and changed it considerably. See:

https://www.lybrary.com/bammo-666-p-922864.html

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Bill Mullins » March 2nd, 2019, 7:27 pm

erdnasephile wrote: So, who was the real Ralph Gironda?


Maybe this guy?

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Tom Frame » March 7th, 2019, 7:46 pm

As I mentioned, I bought the packet trick “Back Flip” or “Bacflip” in the late 70’s. I don’t recall the creator, but I know that it is not Sam Schwartz’s effect/method. That’s a different critter. Anyway, I eventually heeded Brother John Hamman’s sage advice and stopped performing packet tricks as packet tricks. I would include the gaffs in a regular deck and remove them as if they were normal cards. Duh!

So for the past few decades, this has been my handling. It may be of interest.

“Backlash.”

EFFECT: The performer removes the four Kings from a blue-back deck, displays them face up and squares them in a face-up packet. He deals the Kings into his left hand, revealing that the King of Diamonds has turned face down. He squares the packet. He deals again, showing that the King of Diamonds is now face up and the King of Hearts is face down. This phenomenon continues with the Spades and Clubs. Finally, the backs of the Kings change to four different colors.

REQUIREMENTS: A blue deck and four Kings, each with a differently colored back.

SET-UP: Remove the King of Clubs from the blue deck and table it face down. Place the other three Kings, as a face-down group, in the top quarter of the face-down deck. Turn the deck face up. Insert the odd-backed King of Diamonds face up into the deck, about six cards from the face. Six cards behind it, insert the face-up King of Spades. Repeat with the King of Hearts and the King of Clubs. Place the face-up deck on top of the tabled, face-down King.

PERFORMANCE: Since the deck is so shamelessly rigged, this effect should be used as an opener or a one-off performance. Hold the face-up deck in your left hand, with a pinky break above the face-down King of Clubs. Spread the deck between your hands and up-jog each King as you come to it. Square the deck. As your palm-up left hand pulls the Kings from the front of the deck, execute the Strip Out Addition, adding the face-down King to the bottom of the face-up King packet.

Turn your right hand palm up and clumsily table the deck face down in front of you, with its short edge toward you. Do not square it. You want a disheveled deck.

Your palm-down right hand takes the King packet in Biddle Grip. Turn your left hand palm up and use your left thumb to drag the King of Diamonds onto your left palm. Drag the King of Spades onto the King of Diamonds, spread to its right. Drag the King of Hearts partially onto the King of Spades, but leave its right edge on top of the left edge of the King of Clubs double in your right hand. Widely fan the cards between your hands to emphasize that the Kings are all face up. Square the packet, ensuring that the King of Clubs double goes beneath the King of Hearts.

Your palm-down right hand takes the packet in Biddle Grip. Your left thumb drags the King of Hearts onto your left palm. Drag the King of Clubs onto the Heart, spread to its right. Drag the face-down card onto the Club, spread to its right. Without relinquishing your right hand grip, place the King of Spades double onto the right edge of the face-down card. Widely spread the cards to display that the King of Diamonds has turned face down. Square the packet and hold it in right hand Biddle Grip.

Repeat this procedure three times, revealing the reversed Hearts, Spades and finally Clubs. After you’ve dragged the face-down Club onto the Spade, your right hand uses the left edge of the King of Hearts double to flip the Club face up onto the Spade. Place the King of Hearts double onto the Club and square the packet in your left hand.

Turn your left hand palm down and execute the Through the Fist flourish, revealing the odd-backed card. Your right hand grasps the packet and your left hand turns palm up. Grip the packet with both hands and execute the Ascanio Spread, displaying the four differently colored backs. Your right hand removes its double from the spread and drops it on top of the tabled deck, disposing of the blue-backed King of Clubs. Drop the remaining Kings on top of it. Then pick up the four Kings and toss them out for examination. Lay folk will frantically inspect them!
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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Brad Henderson » March 7th, 2019, 7:54 pm

This is almost identical to the nebula card handling. One difference: after flipping the last card face up, the double goes to the bottom of the packet.

Now the packet is turned face down and display/counted exactly as before. So there is no difference in procedure.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby federico luduena » March 10th, 2019, 10:58 am

Brad mentions Nick Trost in his original post, and in fact there is a packet trick by Trost that fits the description: "Trick-Kards", in The Card Magic of Nick Trost, p 211. Hollins and Schwartz are cited in the text. Considering the detailed info generously provided so far, I believe there is one more change in the Trost version, since the faces also change (just the color, though). The work of Bob Farmer in Bammo 666 seems to be the way to go now.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Philippe Billot » March 10th, 2019, 1:39 pm

TRICK-KARDS (1982)

'Trick-Kards" was a result of trying to simplify Ed Hollins' "Flipped
Out," a trick marketed by Emerson & West. (Hollins' trick, in turn, is
an ungimmicked version of Sam Schwartz's "Back Flip.")

"Trick-Kards" was a great favorite with Roy Kissel. There are four
distinct changes: First, four cards of one value are shown--each a different
suit. One by one each of these blue-backed cards turns face down
as the performer counts the packet. Second, all the blue-backed cards
change to red backs. Third, the faces all change to red suits. Fourth,
the backs are now marked--each has a large X printed on it.

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Re: Packet trick creator info requested

Postby Bob Farmer » March 10th, 2019, 2:52 pm

As impressive as Sam's “Back Flip” was, there were some things that always bothered me about it:

• The Back Flip Count: It was an awkward version of the Elmsley Count with injogged, out jogged and pulled-out cards. It looked weird and broke the flow of the handling.

• Starting with a “mystery” face-down packet: you couldn’t spread it to show all face-down cards, so the appearance of the first face-up King wasn’t really magic since it could have been face up all along (and you couldn’t show the faces at the beginning).

• The four Kings: they look too similar, so the audience might not realize the face-up King they just saw is different from the one they saw a moment before.

• The color changing back revelations: they were a bit clumsy in parts.

So, I decided to hot rod “Back Flip,” remove as many of the objections as I could and add another color change and "Bob Flip" was the result. "Bob Flip," has this series of effects:

EFX 1: The Ace, 2, 3 4 of the same suit turn face up in the middle of the deck.

EFX 2: Removed from the deck, the Ace, 2, 3 4 turn face down one by one, until the entire packet is face down.

EFX 3: The packet is counted and the 4 appears face up among the other three face-down cards.
Counted again, the 3 appears as the only face-up card.
Next the 2 appears as the only face-up card and then the Ace.

EFX 4: Suddenly, all the cards turn face up at the same time.

EFX 5: The backs turn from blue to white.

EFX 6: The backs turn from white to green.

EFX 7: The backs turn from green to red one card at a time.

EFX 8: The backs change back to their original color, blue, in the spectator’s hands (and he can examine the packet).

Because the packet is so thin (6 cards), the number of changes do not seem possible. To be honest, EFX 8 requires a simple packet switch, but you can leave that out and just do the whole thing as a standalone packet trick.

Available here in BAMMO 666:

https://www.lybrary.com/bammo-666-p-922864.htm


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