I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

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mrgoat
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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby mrgoat » December 14th, 2008, 8:01 am

Paul Q wrote:You wonderful people may not think that there is a 'FREE LUNCH' out there, but I heard that today Brad Henderson was eating at The Salt Lick BBQ, he did a few card effects, a crowd gathered, he fooled the socks off of them, and his lunch ended up being gratis, as well as his whole party!

Off topic...but cool as heck!


So, it wasn't free and he swopped performance fee for lunch.

:)

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby opie » December 14th, 2008, 8:52 am

mr goat, that is baaaaaaaaaaaaaad.....We all sing for our supper occasionally...tsk tsk...

May we now get baaaaaaaaaaaaaack on track, with a discussion of perhaps Lesson One/Day One? Without a plan and sweat, how does one succeed at anything? Or, let us start with a simple question regarding the "pitch".

What are the major causes of one not succeeding with the plan, other than lack of motivation and perhaps a total lack of charisma?

opie

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby mrgoat » December 14th, 2008, 9:01 am

opie wrote:mr goat, that is baaaaaaaaaaaaaad.....We all sing for our supper occasionally...tsk tsk...


Of course we do. And there is nothing at ALL wrong with that. However, it wasn't a 'free' lunch. That's my only point. Just as with this 'free' information you exchange 'permission' for them to upsell to you.

As long as you know the price you are paying for the "free" item you are getting, there is nothing slightly wrong with that.

I laughed at your goaty sound effects though :)

Damian

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby opie » December 14th, 2008, 10:33 am

Laaaaaaaaaughter and sharing are good, as is a bit of caution, BUUUUUUUUUTT let us not horn in on the guy's chance to share some information about which we may surefootedly hoof around the topic and graze or chomp, depending on our appetites. I do have eclectic tastes......

......and often, I just climb a mountain to see if there is a mole hill on the other side....Most times there is one, and the enlightenment, to me, is entertainment....

....now, aren't we having fun?....

...back to day one.....

opie

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 14th, 2008, 1:42 pm

Hehehehehe funny, the selective reading and highlighting. - Actually my questions was Why Cant We Just Get Along (and NOT just on THIS thread either all over.) though it obviously doesnt matter since it will likely never get answered directly. No biggy.

I understand I introduced and NEW question into the conversation sorry, my bad. I thought it was worth asking. I stand corrected.

I am NOT a perfect poster no one is. I thought that just because someone had come along and posted an imperfect first-share that we could focus on the valuable meat of the post, though not perfect in form maybe, WHY do some get caught up in crucifying the poster as if we are some-kind-of post police arresting, then judging, acting as jury and executioner all at the same time.

I thought instead (as a viable alternative to bashing) that we take what was posted and turn it into a healthy discussion and educate the first-time poster regardless of how we feel. Is this a magic DISCUSSION Board or a territorial magic bashing-board???

Idealist? Maybe. - - Just a different tact is all I guess.

Anyway, how about a directly on-topic question;
=> Is there ANYONE Here who was clearly, unwittingly duped by the Barrys post or offer?

Gee-wiz. Really, all sarcasm aside, I certainly hope not.

According to all posts offered so-far, no one has. So why the conspiracy theory? No one was hurt or duped where they? And it NOT, then WHO are some supposedly protecting?

NO ONE!

Is Barry trying to pull a fast-one? I dont see HOW. He must be intelligent enough to understand that. - Even if he was silly enough to THINK that everyone on the planet doesnt understand the world-oldest marketing principle of sampling.

If everyone, in fact DOES understands and can then individually CHOOSE to read or simply ignore, (pass change the channel etc) then how is there any hidden agenda accept to say that some dont LIKE the idea of being given something of value for free and rant accordingly as if indignant at the proposition as some have.

Its NOT that big of a deal is it? No one was duped or harmed in any way. What is the offence?

Is Barry EVIL? I dont think so I DO believe he is EXCITED about the possibility of sharng 20 years of expert experience by possibly offering a member support site (or maybe a course) and while he is willing to share some really good success stuff for free, (with which WE win cuz it IS good stuff) he may also be checking to see the idea of a member supported success site is viable.

Contempt prior to investigation is ignorance. HE seams to be doing his investigation, are we? - - I AM.

Dont know what hell derive from this thread however. It would be a shame if we all missed out on the CHOICE to see for ourselves though if that were the case.

I do not believe that he actually yet HAS a back-end product all set and in place right-now. So-far, he has NOT suggested that he does as of yet. (At Least that I saw, but I could be wrong and may have missed it so far Ive been busy.) Only the possibility of a forthcoming member site.

I DO believe and we all understand that he is likely doing is intelligent due diligence to see the viability of such a completed project.

I for one, would be interested in discovering more about the possibilities because Barry and his partner HAVE a TON of real-world experience to credibly share and that is what I like; PROVEN Success!

We ALL can LEARN from that!

I may or may-not choose to play or pay should a genuine offer come our way, that is my prerogative, but I AM interested in more information especially since the no-obligation, FREE information is of genuine value and presented in a way that anyone can gain some useful tools, resources and insights form the mind and experience of a proven commodity in the industry.

Was his first post perfect? Maybe not SO-WHAT. No ones perfect! Sure, I agree he should have shared some of his wisdom and built a relationship here first duh. But that is no reason to slam anyone especially a first time poster.

What a WELCOME eh? NOT! - - Hehehehehehehe!

Remember, I too am a loooooooong time reader, few-time poster and this is in part WHY.

Is anyone here PERFECT? (Or the PERFECT Poster?) NOPE! (With mirror firmly in hand as well)

Was it worth all the attacks, and ridicule instead of what we all could LEARN from this sort of occurrence? I didnt think so. Obviously some did ok, we agree to disagree agreeably OR Im TRYING to anyway.

Id much rather LEARN from the mistakes and experiences of others not bash them for it cuz NO-ONE learns from that as I see it. If he were a repeat offender, possible different story, but it was his FIRST Post.

So lets see what we have so far:
= Truly free information was simply offered and WAS Useful and well presented.
= No One Was Duped or Harmed in the making of the post or this thread. (Hehehe)
which TO-ME begged the question; WHY Cant We Just Get Along and LEARN what we can from the share, how-ever PERFECT or not since no-one here has NEVER made a mistake nor is the final arbiter of what is perfect and what is not right?

Fair? Again, JUST ASKING.

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (truly wants to understand) in Reno
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Last edited by TheDean. on December 14th, 2008, 2:33 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: Fixing some of the errors. Some I left for ridicule. Hehehe!

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby opie » December 14th, 2008, 3:42 pm

Okay....That should just about cover everything except direct references to the program....So let us get serious and address the first point of the program...

Who's on first?

opie

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby NCMarsh » December 14th, 2008, 5:19 pm

Dean,

First, a step back: no one, I think, is taking offense. No one is not "getting along."

It's a discussion of effective and professional marketing. Nothing personal. Nothing emotional.

The answer to "can't we all just get along:"

We can and we are. We are this guy's prospects, or else he wouldn't have posted his sales letter here. Whenever I have the chance to hear what my prospects think about my materials...that's effing gold....Ziglar: "see through John Brown's eyes you'll see why John Brown buys"...if anything, I think the feedback this guy has received can be very helpful to him and is not an attack

As to this being about an issue of "style" we don't "like:"

It is about effectiveness. As method affects effect, so too -- in marketing -- style affects effectiveness.

My grandmother retired from thirty years of teaching third grade in a small town to sell real estate as a sort of hobby. She was the top performer in her office annually and sold millions each year.

Why? She didn't need the income.

When a family came into the office, she was the kind old lady who genuinely cared about helping you find the right home for your needs; not with making her nut for the month. The sales flowed from the relationship.

When you talked to the young agent who really needed the sale to feed his family; you felt that

a.) he was needy

b.) his concern was what he could get from you

Both are sales killers; and nothing says needy like a gimmicky, amateurish sales letter...particularly when it is the first thing you post

marketing on a forum -- to my mind -- is just like marketing at a trade association meeting...and, to be successful, you should follow the same guideline (i.e. cultivate a reputation and relationships first)

In the world of corporate entertainment, with the exceptions of picnics and company parties (which are frequently planned by secretaries/support staff), virtually every decision maker you encounter has received sales training.

This is a double-edged sword: they are particularly sensitive to manipulative, gimmicky sales tactics and resent being played as a sucker. On the other hand, give a competent, professional presentation and you score more points because they respect the craft of doing it well.

The same is true of us as performers in this market. We deal with/are around people in sales; and we know the difference between a real sales professional and an amateur.

if you're trying to sell information on sales/marketing; this becomes hugely important:

If you can't represent yourself to me in a professional, effective, and competent way; why in the world would I think you can help me market effectively to my prospects and clients?

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 14th, 2008, 5:57 pm

Im with Opie,
P-E-R-F-E-C-T, thanks!

Lesson One: The Demo Reel

FIRST let me say that I LOVE the FORM:
The fact that he has taken into consideration lots of preferred learning styles in his communications with his lessons. THAT, to me is a LESSON all by itself with the multiple choice of:
= Audio Download
= Printed Offering
and of course the VIDEO version of the lesson as well!

BRILLIANT!

Truth be told, if it wasnt so dog-gone proven profitable that what hes doing WORKS (whether we LIKE-IT or not and though not the way I choose to market by n large, proven facts are simply that proven facts regardless of our feelings.)

Certainly, Id like to see more choice in his original marketing for me a VIDEO introducing his information is proving to be VERY fruitful. Certainly an audio download and a downloadable PDF report is a good idea too for each preferred style but that is just me. Choice helps to build Re-Elationships and THAT, to me is the real point of effective marketing.

Anyway, that aside, I think that his shares are not over-done, but good, solid, proven experience and insights and not even too long I liked it as a participant.

Hows that for a good start? (Day 2 is even better! Too much info for free!)
Dean

Nathan,
REALLY??? - Sinicism and Sarcasm IS getting along? (which folks are clear they were doing) Hmmmmmmmmm, OK, fine, you can have it. - Not me, thank you.


I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (loves to get along and to have GREAT conversations) in Reno
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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby mrgoat » December 14th, 2008, 7:23 pm

TheDean wrote:Hehehehehe funny, the selective reading and highlighting. - Actually my questions was Why Cant We Just Get Along (and NOT just on THIS thread either all over.) though it obviously doesnt matter since it will likely never get answered directly. No biggy.


Dean, maybe you have missed the TWO TIMES I have answered your question.

Allow me to answer it for a third time. I will also PM you the answer in case you miss this, as well as the other two times I have answered your purile question. Ready? Here we go:

"Oh, is that what you wanted to know?

Easy

1) It is spam
2) It is the first post from the person and it's spam
3) It is trying to sucker people into giving up details that will later result in them being upsold by offering 'free' information

Hope that helps clear it up for you.

Damian "

Hope you get it now. If not, I can draw you a picture or something to help you get it.

TheDean wrote:I understand I introduced and NEW question into the conversation sorry, my bad. I thought it was worth asking. I stand corrected.


No, you didn't introduce a new question. I'd answered it. But thanks for the apology.

TheDean wrote:I am NOT a perfect poster no one is. I thought that just because someone had come along and posted an imperfect first-share that we could focus on the valuable meat of the post, though not perfect in form maybe, WHY do some get caught up in crucifying the poster as if we are some-kind-of post police arresting, then judging, acting as jury and executioner all at the same time.


That easy Dean. It's because his first post was drive by spam. Thought I had explained that three times already? Sorry, if it wasn't clear.

TheDean wrote:I thought instead (as a viable alternative to bashing) that we take what was posted and turn it into a healthy discussion and educate the first-time poster regardless of how we feel. Is this a magic DISCUSSION Board or a territorial magic bashing-board???


It's a private board for magicians to discuss magic, which is why your pal spammed the board. And it's why I have an issue with it.

TheDean wrote:Anyway, how about a directly on-topic question;
=> Is there ANYONE Here who was clearly, unwittingly duped by the Barrys post or offer?


Duped? Appropiate language.

As a marketeer you understand that when you offer something for free, you are clearly asking for permission to market to that person later.

NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

What is wrong is when you pretend that isn't going to happen.

I really hope this is clear for you now.

TheDean wrote:Is Barry trying to pull a fast-one? I dont see HOW. He must be intelligent enough to understand that. - Even if he was silly enough to THINK that everyone on the planet doesnt understand the world-oldest marketing principle of sampling.


That would be utterly fine IF he had admitted he was doing this as a data-gathering exercise. The fact he came back and suggested this was just a 'free' piece of information with no motives for a commercial upsell I would have said nothing.

As it is, it is perfectly clear this is a marketing trick to get people's contact details.

Again, nothing wrong with that if you are transparent in your data-gathering.


TheDean wrote:Its NOT that big of a deal is it? No one was duped or harmed in any way. What is the offence?


I've told you three times now.

TheDean wrote:Is Barry EVIL? I dont think so


Who suggested he was?

TheDean wrote:I do not believe that he actually yet HAS a back-end product all set and in place right-now. So-far, he has NOT suggested that he does as of yet. (At Least that I saw, but I could be wrong and may have missed it so far Ive been busy.) Only the possibility of a forthcoming member site.


Brilliant. So as long as no one gets upsold he is doing nothing wrong.

However, I bet you a year's salary he will upsell to the data he gathers.

TheDean wrote:I may or may-not choose to play or pay should a genuine offer come our way, that is my prerogative, but I AM interested in more information especially since the no-obligation, FREE information is of genuine value and presented in a way that anyone can gain some useful tools, resources and insights form the mind and experience of a proven commodity in the industry.


as marketing professionals we both no this isn't 'free' information TheDean. You are getting the information in return for proving yourself to be a pre-qualified lead. If you and your chum would just admit this, I would have no issue with your scam.

TheDean wrote:Was his first post perfect? Maybe not SO-WHAT. No ones perfect! Sure, I agree he should have shared some of his wisdom and built a relationship here first duh. But that is no reason to slam anyone especially a first time poster.


In your opinion. In my opinion it is the exact reason someone should slam a first time poster.

TheDean wrote:What a WELCOME eh? NOT! - - Hehehehehehehe!


Maybe if he had ingratiated himself with the community before trying to sell us something things would be different?

TheDean wrote:Remember, I too am a loooooooong time reader, few-time poster and this is in part WHY.


I've seen your posts on other forums, I do not think we're missing much.

TheDean wrote:Id much rather LEARN from the mistakes and experiences of others not bash them for it cuz NO-ONE learns from that as I see it. If he were a repeat offender, possible different story, but it was his FIRST Post.


Awesome attitude. What you can learn from this is that there are better ways to try and market something than spamming a board with your first post.

TheDean wrote:So lets see what we have so far:
= Truly free information was simply offered and WAS Useful and well presented.
= No One Was Duped or Harmed in the making of the post or this thread. (Hehehe)


It wasn't free though TheDean. You gave permission to be upsold. That was the price of admission.

If this was admitted I would walk away. It isn't, your little pal is offering information in EXCHANGE for personal data.

It's really simple. I do not believe you are this stupid. Offering x for your personal data is a classic marketing trick. We both know this.

So just say "you will get some information, but after this you will be sold to". End of story.

I just don't like the fact you are STILL saying the information is free. It isn't admit this. I know how much a pre-qualified lead costs. I imagine you do too, unless you are lying about your marketing experience. Giving away some information is well worth permission to market to a pre-qualified lead.

Just admit that.

We all know you do marketing. It's clear from your posts you are a chum of this juggler. That is great. Just stop pretending this information is free. Nothing is free.

I hope now you understand my issue with this spam. But well done for getting it to as many page views as you have!

Damian

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby opie » December 14th, 2008, 8:13 pm

I have a grandson named Damian....yeah, they misspelled it in The Omen....He is only 13 months old, and I cannot wait to start sharing the Omen series and magic with him.....

One thing I will teach him is never to refuse a gift; it is rude and will limit future offers of gifts...

The program is NOT FREE....everybody knows that!!!

So, now that THAT is settled, may we see how much we can glean, beginning with Day One?

Please don't ruin this opportunity for everybody....If we decide to buy, we will; if we don't we won't........I hope it is okay to have that choice...

Day One?????????

opie

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 14th, 2008, 9:32 pm

Ha... this is truly funny. (and silly at the same time.) What-ever.

=A) I don't know Barry. (Other than by reputation) Never met him, never eMailed or chatted with him, no contact or communication is any way, shape or form. (Accept for his free 7 day course, of course.) He's not my "Pal, Buddy or Chum". I dont know him, period. Im sure I WILL eventually get to know him NOW, but havent as of yet.

Yet another interesting unfounded assumption youve saddled me with. Ha! - Oh well.

=B) I get it... you want to be right. Fine. We ALL understand and agree that he may well be offering something... big deal, no big mystery either! NO ONE suggested otherwise! (NOT even Barry.) Not sure why you think everyone else is so stupid not to see it as clearly as we, in fact do. - - We ALL have said as much. Get over yourself. Hehehe!

I DO agree that the "info" (His 7 Day Course) is worth well more than a silly opt-in eMail address (which costs nothing AND you can easily opt-out at any time duh.) Again, a big-fat so what. Yea, big-deal, you have to CHOOSE to give your email if you want the course delivered to your email box... duh. - Big deal. NO ONE if FORCING anyone to sign-up holy cow!

Again, Im with the stunningly balanced Opie on this one
OPIE: - I have a grandson named Damian....yeah, they misspelled it in The Omen....He is only 13 months old, and I cannot wait to start sharing the Omen series and magic with him.....

One thing I will teach him is never to refuse a gift; it is rude and will limit future offers of gifts...

The program is NOT FREE....everybody knows that!!!

So, now that THAT is settled, may we see how much we can glean, beginning with Day One?

Please don't ruin this opportunity for everybody....If we decide to buy, we will; if we don't we won't........I hope it is okay to have that choice...


Day One?????????

opie


AMEN Brother!

I certainly take responsibility and apologize for my part of the distraction (a few time now) and have also offered my two cents worth on DAY ONE of the course in my last post as the Sage Opie recommends can we just say N-E-X-T, and party-on with the discussion truly at-hand???

PLEASE?!?!?

Come on now, its time to Move ON brother I have. (so have most others as far as I can see) For NOW, there is a potentially good discussion brewing worth our time and talent. Please put your energy there instead of insulting me based only on your own personal feelings. (Especially since you dont even know me HA!) Besides, this discussion is not, and never was about what 'you think about me' anyway... PLEASE just focus and move on.

So, what do you guys think of Opies well focused question and THIS discussion at hand? (Hint, Hint.)


I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (moved-on and looking forward to more Day ONE & beyond HEALTHY shares here) in Reno
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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby opie » December 14th, 2008, 9:57 pm

The Dean Said: "So, what do you guys think of Opies Question and THIS discussion at hand? (Hint, Hint.)"

I think Barry should show what his "course" is about and come on to respond to questions that are being asked.....I want to know more about his pitch........

I have made several attempts to get him to respond to questions about a few of his program points.....To hell with those who are not interested; they can just not read the posts......duh!!! If his course does not have basic moves to overcome objections, maybe I have been wasting my time........I hope not....

Step one; day one??????????.........

opie

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 14th, 2008, 10:08 pm

I havent yet tried to connect with him either, but I'm guessing he is WORKING, since that is what he does for a living. (He only lives a couple of hours [slightly less than] from my place... who knows?)

I DO want to see more of what he has to offer (Remember, that thing that was never ANY mystery to anyone here... nor did anyone say it was... hehehehe!)

I have already received most of his free online training modals and they are really good. As I said, obviously sage advice from a full-time working expert nice to see real world, road-tested value being shared! Makes me want to see what he would/should be offering if he is willing to GIVE so much for a little email address. (oooohhhhhh Big Price to Pay! Ha!)

Thinking of YOU and Your Success!

I am at your service and I HIS Service,
Deano (am applying some new stuff I learned already) in Reno
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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 14th, 2008, 10:17 pm

Day too - feedback - it's the coffin in the nail of a good thing.

BTW it's really up to you to elicit objections... or not.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby mrgoat » December 15th, 2008, 6:50 am

TheDean wrote: We ALL understand and agree that he may well be offering something... big deal, no big mystery either! NO ONE suggested otherwise! (NOT even Barry.)


TheDean, Barry not only suggested otherwise, he implicitly stated it:

"I put a lot of work into creating a 7-Day Training Course that I am offering to the community for free. If that is spam, then I'm guilty."

It's not free. It is in return for a pre-qualified lead's data.

TheDean wrote:I DO agree that the "info" (His 7 Day Course) is worth well more than a silly opt-in eMail address (which costs nothing AND you can easily opt-out at any time duh.)


There is nothing silly about an opt-in email address. I work almost solely in email marketing and assure you an opt-in email address is the most valuable thing you could possibly collect nowadays. Maybe because your history is in more traditional direct mail you are unaware of this?

No one suggested the information wasn't WORTH your personal data TheDean.

And as I believe you are involved in marketing, I find it very odd that you think an member of the genii forum's email address costs nothing.

It is VERY valuable. This board is the best magic board on the web. The membership list of this board would be invaluable to a magic marketeer.

To claim otherwise would be ridiculous.

TheDean wrote:Again, a big-fat so what. Yea, big-deal, you have to CHOOSE to give your email if you want the course delivered to your email box... duh. - Big deal. NO ONE if FORCING anyone to sign-up holy cow!


Um, so, how can you get the course without giving your email address? There's no choice here. You are forced to give your email address in exchange for this course.

But, no one claimed anyone was forcing anyone to sign up for the course. You're awfully good at arguing against things no one has said.

[quote="TheDean"]Please put your energy there instead of insulting me based only on your own personal feelings.[\quote]

TheDean, think carefully about this one. Where did I insult you? Please quote examples. Or realise I haven't insulted you and just post a brief apology.

Thanks

Damian

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 15th, 2008, 2:34 pm

Damien,

Please FOCUS!
Fine if you want to be RIGHT, your right. There, hows that? Hehehehehe

This will be the last distraction I will have with you I may choose to enjoy the rest of the REAL conversation at hand, but I will NOT continue to argue with you please MOVE ON.

For the last time off topic:
TheDean, Barry not only suggested otherwise, he implicitly stated it:

"I put a lot of work into creating a 7-Day Training Course that I am offering to the community for free. If that is spam, then I'm guilty."

It's not free. It is in return for a pre-qualified lead's data.


=A) AGAIN; WE ALL GET THAT! How many times do we all have to say it, and in how many different ways?!?!?! You must somehow think that YOU are smarter than everyone here and the ONLY ONE who gets the basic idea of trading value for value, AGAIN We ALL Get It! Once again, a big-fat DUH!

Captain Semantics to the rescue:
= You Call It NOT FREE, Ye Haw, Whoopy!
= I call is worth trading something of value for something of value. Whoo Hoo, Yippy!

SO-WHAT!

Silly me, I though that two adults could simply Agree To Disagree Agreeably and Move On Again, N-E-X-T!

CHOICE: - You Got It!
HERE is the Super-Obvious FACT of the matter; you really DO have a choice, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous and a rather helpless victim mentality that doesnt suite you. - You are certainly No victim. DUH! Get over yourself and PLEASE stop hijacking the health and wealth of this potentially powerful discussion! What a JOKE!

It may be true that YOU may not LIKE the choices, but there CLEARLY is a choice! You are not stupid this is Obvious 101. - The rest of us see it.

OK, Here are just two obvious possibilities:
=1) You can choose to NOT trade value for value and NOT get the content fine, but clearly STILL a choice. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU! Again DUH!

=2) You can, like lots of smart folks; get a free online email account (I guess its not actually FREE, you have to sign up! HA!) and use THAT email to subscribe to some of the lists you want to subscribe to and still keep your main eMail box clean plus its good for tracking if one chooses to do so as well.

NEXT - -
Q: - Too, quick show of hands, how many people were HARMED by this equitable trade if you choose to participate???

Buhler Buhler Buhler

A: - NO ONE cuz it was, and still is a CHOICE! Tah Duh!

No matter, you have already indicted (Judge, Jury & Executioner) me with all your unfounded innuendo, insults, sarcasm, and snide quips we all get THAT as well; You Dont Like Me WHO CARES if you like me or not. Grow up and get with the program. There is a potentially useful discussion at hand that everyone else is trying to enjoy. JOIN US and stop with the silly little games. OK?

Suggesting You Know Me, insulting me and mis-speaking on my behalf is wrong
Dean, maybe you have missed the TWO TIMES I have answered your question.

Allow me to answer it for a third time. I will also PM you the answer in case you miss this, as well as the other two times I have answered your purile question. Ready? Here we go:

.
.
.

I can draw you a picture or something to help you get it.


Nice slam and sarcasm NOT! (Hahahahahaha!) oh, and it IS insulting.

Also; How is:
Because It Was Spam answer the question Why Cant We Just All Get Along??? When in fact, it ONLY offers personal commentary on your own indignation nothing more. WHICH is Perfectly FINE, you are 100% welcome to it, but it does NOT answer the question as I see it anyway but again, who cares, I THOUGHT we were moving ON past all that. I was! We can just agree to disagree about that as well OK?

and comments like: (But NOT limited to)
I would have no issue with your scam.

I've seen your posts on other forums, I do not think we're missing much.


Again insulting! and THIS IS GETTING ALONG?!?!? - OUCH! No Thank You!

YOU DO NOT KNOW ME in the least:
I do not yet know Barry I am NOT scamming anyone blah, blah, blah, blah.

My full-time living (actually lifestyle) and PASSION is helping people succeed, (Over 25,000 Live Paid Events Worth) whether it is my casinos and corporate relationships in supporting super successful events they desire and deserve or other independent business professionals who want more out of life, their business and for their families and/or couples who want to renew the connection, commitment and convictions in their re-lationships.

Hey, I GET your passion for your perspective and I say GOOD FOR YOU, but as to the rest of your unfounded indictments and insults, they are unnecessary, and more over, holistically distracting from the power and the point of this emerging discussion.

NOW, can we pleeeeeeeeeze just MOVE ON once again???

Damian, I have an idea; lets just agree to disagree agreeably (or what-ever you want to call it) and simply ignore each other (Heck, you dont even need to apologize to me, as you requested...) cuz there is a killer discussion at hand that deserves some HEALTHY discussion, OK? - Pleeeeeeeeze!

N-E-X-T!

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (lets move on) in Reno
<><

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby mrgoat » December 15th, 2008, 6:32 pm

TheDean wrote:Damien,

Please FOCUS!
Fine if you want to be RIGHT, your right. There, hows that? Hehehehehe


a) it's damiAn
b) it's you're right, not your right

So to answer your question...it's not the best start.

TheDean wrote:This will be the last distraction I will have with you


You said that last time, and yet you still reply...


TheDean wrote:=A) AGAIN; WE ALL GET THAT! How many times do we all have to say it, and in how many different ways?!?!?! You must somehow think that YOU are smarter than everyone here and the ONLY ONE who gets the basic idea of trading value for value, AGAIN We ALL Get It! Once again, a big-fat DUH!


Well you asked the question about 4 times in this thread. I answered it repeatedly because you seemed to keep missing my response.

Glad you admit that you are trading something of value now. In your last post you denied it had any value. So we've moved on. That is good.


TheDean wrote:Get over yourself and PLEASE stop hijacking the health and wealth of this potentially powerful discussion! What a JOKE!


TheDean, there is nothing powerful about this thread. It is mainly people saying that long form marketing sucks. There is no discussion about the course. Maybe because no one signed up, because they realised it read like a scam?

TheDean wrote:Buhler Buhler Buhler


That's "Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?"

TheDean wrote:No matter, you have already indicted (Judge, Jury & Executioner) me with all your insults


Again, I repeat, where have I insulted you. I asked you before this simple question you failed to answer me.

This is because I haven't insulted you. You may now apologise.


TheDean wrote:Also; How is:
Because It Was Spam answer the question [b]Why Cant We Just All Get Along???


It isn't. That wasn't the question I was answering. I was answering the question you asked repeatedly about why the OP was lambasted by me. Hope that helps you keep up with this now. I know it's confusing.
TheDean wrote:YOU DO NOT KNOW ME in the least:


Please explain where I claimed I knew you.

You are very tedious. You keep claiming things no one said and then arguing against them. If you read the posts fully before you respond it may help avoid this.

TheDean wrote:Damian, I have an idea; lets just agree to disagree agreeably (or what-ever you want to call it) and simply ignore each other (Heck, you dont even need to apologize to me, as you requested...) cuz there is a killer discussion at hand that deserves some HEALTHY discussion, OK? - Pleeeeeeeeze!


I am happy to ignore your posts as soon as you stop lying about what I have said.

However, re-read this thread. There is no 'killer discussion' waiting to happen. Opie wants to know about liner work. That's all. Everyone else is talking about the marketing of this data gathering deception.

If you want to try and take me on, that is fine, but quote what I say and take that to task. Do not go on mad italicized and bolded rants about things no one accused you of. It kind of makes you out a tad unhinged. This is not meant to be insulting in the least, just help you appear more coherent when trying to get your point of view across.

Damian

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 15th, 2008, 6:46 pm

still waiting to see who goes for the extra large fonts or colors ...
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby John M. Dale » December 15th, 2008, 9:10 pm

Damian,

(Captain Peter Quincy Taggart) Never give up. Never surrender.


Keep up the good work.

BTW, did you notice our old "friend' from a.m. has joined and posted here recently? I was surprised you didn't "take the opportunity. ;)


JMD (aka Hardeen)

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 15th, 2008, 10:17 pm

Day Two Lesson:
What Do THEY Think Of YOU?

Testimonials are one of the most stable ways to convey credibility and trust in your marketing! It is never about what YOU have to say about yourself that ever counts much. It is MORE About What OTHERS Have To Say About You That Are Of Real Influence and Value!

One of the very BEST things you can do for your marketing and your success is to have LOTS of killer testimonials!

I know we all know this and in Lesson Two, he reveals the way HE gets lots of killer testimonials poring in and all at the click of a mouse button and a few keystrokes and POOF, you have well-trained, amazing and useful testimonial from your past show relationship

He even gives-away HOW he does this with real-live screen-shots of the system and tools he uses with links directly to his online testimonial forms and phone messaging system!

Again, I personally like the use of his multiple learning styles and I choose to learn from the VIDEO! (as will 78% of us statistically speaking but that is for another day as well) I too am predominantly visual.

SURE, we ALL understand that testimonials are a good thing, and he could have simply stopped there but instead he showed us EXACTLY how he gets them not bad for a few minute online marketing lesson worth every penny I invested! (and MORE! Wait, oh thats right, I didnt fork-over a single flat red cent! Hehehehe!)

Thinking of YOU and Your Success!

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (Loves valuable information) in Reno
<><

PS
If I knew HOW to large-colored fonts, I might have tried that hehehehehehehe! (Just kidding son...)

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Richard Perrin » December 16th, 2008, 3:38 am

That got me stand back. Sorry, I'm not interesting because of your words and fish logo don't blend well.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby mrgoat » December 16th, 2008, 6:10 am

John M. Dale wrote:Damian,

(Captain Peter Quincy Taggart) Never give up. Never surrender.


Keep up the good work.

BTW, did you notice our old "friend' from a.m. has joined and posted here recently? I was surprised you didn't "take the opportunity. ;)


JMD (aka Hardeen)


Thanks for the support. I've had many PMs and private emails in a similar vein. And yes I noticed my old friend had turned up here ;)

Damian

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby NCMarsh » December 16th, 2008, 11:11 am

I took a look at the Raspyni brothers actual site, and they -- or their management -- have put together a very professional sales tool there that is not a hack sales letter ala the getmorecorporategigs.com site. Seeing the materials he puts in front of clients gave him much more credibility, in my eyes, than what was posted here.

Because so many marketing materials/courses use hack sales letters to sell info on how to write hack sales letters...and here we had a hack sales letter about marketing magic, I assumed that was the content to be taught..I have looked at the lesson on demo videos and am, to date, wrong.

It is nothing earth-shattering, but it is practical information that is focused on seeing your materials through the eyes of your prospects and understanding what they are looking for....and that is certainly the center of effective sales and marketing

I had no problem with someone posting here to build a database to market to (and I VASTLY prefer someone giving me the chance to opt-in to their marketing email over the spammers who harvest addresses here to market to WITHOUT permission). My problem was with those who continue to churn out re-warmed basic sales information at exorbitant prices to magicians looking for the "system" that will build their business. And I took out my frustration at that group on this guy.

The guy does, in my view, know what he's talking about; and -- whatever it is that he's selling -- he doesn't seem to be selling the kind of approach to marketing seen in the sales letter.

And I am glad he posted it.

N.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 16th, 2008, 12:58 pm

Are You Memorable? What a great question!

Hey even when we KILL our buying relationship need to:
=A) Remain Top Of Mind!
=B) Let THEM know We Care About Them and Their Events!

This Lesson he shares several proven ways (even some simple one we all know, but few actually DO hint, hint!) to stay TOM (Top Of Mind) and keep in touch with our business and buying relationships WHILE adding real VALUE for them and making it FUN all at the same time! Cool, eh?

More FREE Useful links and experience that WORK if we work it!

More great stuff!

Thinking of YOU and Your Success,

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (loves receiving real value) in Reno
<><

PS
Nathan, I am guessing, but based on what I do know now, Im pretty sure that the Raspynis ARE responsible for their own marketing. They may not code the site themselves, (or maybe they do) but Im sure they have THE predominate guiding hand in the over-all marketing of their business.

PPS
Nathan, YES the methods are different. I am glad you did your own due-diligence and investigation congratulations.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Brad Henderson » December 16th, 2008, 7:30 pm

Hi, Dean.

Wow. So many things to discuss. Let's get the personal out of the way.

TheDean wrote:Hehehehehehehe this is what I am talking about missed the POINT once again.

To be CLEAR, I never stated my position on long or short form sites one way or the other, BUT if you knew me (and clearly you do NOT) I am NOT a big advocate (Well Documented) of just long-form, killer mini sites across the board. - - I am a fan of WHAT WORKS. Period. (But THAT is for another discussion again.) Like I said, there is NO Kool-Aid drinking going on here at least n this end. (Ha! You Crack me up!)


You claim I "do not know you." Well, not personally. I have read many of your posts on the Cafe and I cannot recall a single instance when you were not 100% behind any "let me sell you the secret to success program" that was being offered. You may hate long form sales letters. That wasn't my point. My point was that this is your domain and you are protective of it.

May I reference both this:

TheDean wrote:Damien,

My full-time living (actually lifestyle) and PASSION is helping people succeed, (Over 25,000 Live Paid Events Worth) whether it is my casinos and corporate relationships in supporting super successful events they desire and deserve or other independent business professionals who want more out of life, their business and for their families and/or couples who want to renew the connection, commitment and convictions in their re-lationships.
<><


and

http://www.thedean.net/

and from your profile:

Occupation: Success Solutionist

You have a perspective and bias. You drank the Koolaid.

(Taking his cue from DEAN, now)

NOW, can we pleeeeeeeeeze just MOVE ON once again???

(That was a quote from you, Just FYI.)

Now let's look at your question, Why can't we all just get along.

TheDean wrote:I UNDERSTAND Proven Success VERY WELL. Clearly you misunderstood my question. I simply want to know WHY people berate and belittle people for sharing something of value. - - WHY not simply choose to pass on a discussion instead of calling people out when it doesnt HELP anyone become more successful? (Or advance the health of a discussion SURE, controversy sells NOT the same as a HEALTHY Discussion.)

The phrase: Cant We Just All Get Along? comes to mind. Or how about; Do No Harm.



Well, because this Brotherhood nonsense leads to [censored] performances, crappy products, and the theft of ideas. If we all shoot rainbows out our ass, who will let consumers know that the product they are about to support was stolen from someone. If we refuse to be critical of what we are exposed to, how are people to know that there may be room for improvement in their own work, or in the craft as a whole.

We all remember the magic club reports where every act was flawless and a good time was had by all. Do you think this HELPS magic?

It doesn't.

And critically evaluating posts made and products offered hardly "does harm." If the product has merit, that will be uncovered, no?

Now, please do not think I am suggesting we need to be rude. In fact, I didn't see any of the alleged rudeness you referred to. I did see people questioning the efficacy of a marketing tool.

YOU chose to consider that rude.

The only rudeness I see is someone who refuses to allow others to discuss the issues raised in this thread.

Is it time to move on? Why are you so insistent that we stick to your agenda. A cynical person may wonder if perhaps Toto is getting to close to the man behind the curtain?

But the problem, Dean, is a performative contradiction.

You want us to ignore the marketing tool used to pitch a program, but this program is about MARKETING. The first lesson IS THE PITCH EMAIL!!!

How you can divorce the marketing tool used to market an item from the item is beyond me.

The point is, this marketing tool IS part of his course. It is the face he presents. Why can't we discuss it?

Because that really gets to the heart of the matter and the reason so many of us posted. Why can't WE be allowed to discuss this? Why must YOU dictate what can be discussed.

It would seem to me (and maybe someone can correct me) that one would use "best practices" in selling anything. Clearly, Barry thinks that this form letter is "best practice."

I have seen form letters like this before. They always end up at the same destination (or similar ones). Someone bought a "how to sell success course" and now they are "paying it forward." Same ideas, sometimes a different ribbon. Sometimes not even that.

Now, Dean, I think you would accuse me of judging too quickly.

But if every time I open a gold box I find a turd sandwich, why would I want to open another gold box?

Because this time you tell me it's different?

If you have something new to offer (and Barry might) why would you wrap it in a way that experience has taught many will lead to disappointment? If someone doesn't realize that, what would that lead me to conclude about their experience and insight? If someone's "package" looks like that infamous "gold box", what do they expect us to think is inside of it? And if they are willing to voluntarily abandon those who have opened the gold box before, doesn't that speak volumes about what they know they are offering?

And finally, if this type of pitch is "best practice" in Barry's eyes, why doesn't their website follow the same format? Seems to me that you would use what works - especially where it matters most.

Maybe I'm cynical. I hope I do not come off as rude. I just think that there is a healthy and fascinating discussion to be had here, and I don't think it is your place, Dean, to tell us if we can or cannot have it.

Let's talk about the course. But the pitch is the face it puts forward. What does that say about the person and the content we can/should expect?

Brad Henderson

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 16th, 2008, 7:51 pm

Okey Dokey...

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Brad Henderson » December 16th, 2008, 8:07 pm

I presume that is how one tries to take the ball and goes home?

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 16th, 2008, 8:14 pm

Nope... just okey dokey. - That's all.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Brad Henderson » December 16th, 2008, 8:16 pm

Why did you change your "screen name" to "gone" then?

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby TheDean. » December 16th, 2008, 8:17 pm

... a simple error. Just another part of being human.

Doesnt matter anyway

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Mark Phillips » December 18th, 2008, 12:13 pm

I sure missed a lot of noise getting in late on this one. I was dubious when I saw the heading of the thread since I have seen similar ones many times. When I take a peek to see who is offering this breakthrough in marketing, I almost always find out it is someone I have never heard of, (I've been doing tradeshows exclusively for 20 years), and someone none of my colleagues have ever heard of either (a wonderful exception was Seth Kramer's recent book).

I was stunned to see that this was being offered by Barry of the Raspyni Brothers. I have worked at numerous tradeshows with the Bros., and they are the real deal. They have a show anyone on this forum would envy in terms of both skill and entertainment. They have a HUGE repertoire and ALWAYS kill - the fact that I equally admire a handful of other corporate jugglers means I must say they are one of THE top acts working today. I don't know how much of this material is new, how much I already know, and how much will apply to someone already in as deep as I am, but Barry would not be putting this stuff out if it weren't what he used, and if it hadn't worked for him. I agree with Brad that these pre-packaged pitches are a turn off, but not when it comes from someone whose work I know and admire. Sign me up.
Go practice.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby opie » December 18th, 2008, 2:59 pm

Does all this mean that we are not going to chat about the differences between the liner business and the corporate business? It seemed to have turned into a juggling of one liners and a lot of corpses......tsk tsk...

opie

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Brad Henderson » December 18th, 2008, 6:12 pm

Mark,

You kind of hit the nail on the head. I know of the Raspyni Brothers. I would hope Barry would have something unique to offer. That is why I am so puzzled as to why he would choose to use something with which so many have had negative experiences. At worst, it makes me wonder if he (like so many have done) just bought one of those "how to sell success" programs and is offering with "entertainment" substituted for the word "widget."

Maybe Dean can answer this: If you know that your method of expression is going to overshadow that which you intend to express to such a degree that many will automatically avoid listening, why would you use it?

I suppose someone could say that the technique is "proven success", but I would have to ask - to what degree. Is 2% really the bar we should be shooting for?

Had Barry posted something like:

Hi, I'm Barry. You may have heard of me in my work in the Raspyni Brothers. I have decided to put together a course explaining how we achieved the levels of success in business we managed to reach. Some of the ideas may be familiar to you. Some of them we think are original with us. We will talk about what worked, what didn't, and what it took to make some of those old ideas fit with our goals.

To me, that has SO much more power than the nonsense with which we were presented.

Agree/disagree?

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 18th, 2008, 6:33 pm

Brad, that very question was asked much earlier - no reply then - so what's changed?

When a poster is all about themselves and vague/unqualified assertions it's a show - and when more than one poster uses the language frame it may as well be a puppet show.

I like puppet shows, jugglers and good discussion about client relationship management techniques.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Ray T. Stott » December 21st, 2008, 4:53 pm

Is Barry trying to pull a fast-one? I dont see HOW. He must be intelligent enough to understand that. - Even if he was silly enough to THINK that everyone on the planet doesnt understand the world-oldest marketing principle of sampling.


It is pity that the world's oldest marketing principle was never put into practice by the world's oldest profession..the mere thought of it makes one swoon.
It's not about the magic; it's about the daily box office gross.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Ray T. Stott » December 21st, 2008, 5:28 pm

No one in this cabal of selling success from from anecdotal or testimonials of others sources have a clue.

Truly successful individuals in any area do not "give away" or sell their personal play book for achievement or shower the ignorant with false hopes of doing so.

I have never read a textbook on Finance that was authored by a successful financier.

Donald Trump's Art of the...series to the contrary but they were not textbooks.

This stuff closes out of town every time and ended entirely with the demise of John Beresford Tipton and Michael Anthony being put out to pasture

These individuals collectively circle their wagons faster than pioneers in a Sioux attack and with the 3 Wise Monkeys philosophy of medical doctors.

The only true secret of success is that after you reach the top of its ladder, you pull the ladder up after you.
It's not about the magic; it's about the daily box office gross.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Jack Turk » December 22nd, 2008, 11:23 am

"The only true secret of success is that after you reach the top of its ladder, you pull the ladder up after you."

I'm sorry you feel so jaded. I know for a fact that some people actually do want to help others succeed. You won't find a more giving, caring, and sharing individual than Dean Hankey. And I hope that Barry falls into the same category.

The libraries are full of books packed with great advice and wisdom gathered along the way.

For example, here's a tip from corporate management that I followed and it proved extremely powerful in building my team.

Only hire people smarter than you.

If you hire people smaller than you, eventually you will have a business of midgets. If you hire people larger than you, it will become a company of giants.

Wise people don't pull up the ladder. They build escalators.

Just my opinion.

--J
"59 Ways to Recession Proof Your Entertainment Business -- FREE!"
http://GetLeadsLikeCrazy.com

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Ray T. Stott » December 25th, 2008, 8:31 pm

[font:Arial Black]
Only hire people smarter than you.


What if there are none of these "smarter" people around?
Hire the very best available and be prepared to mentor them.

An opinion formed after scores of years in the trenches of three simultaneous "Prevail or Die" professions and one "Publish or Perish" academic slot.


No complaints, mind you, as I was up to the task and personally selected the individual rings in which to do combat.

My success philosophy may seem jaded to you but I have made my "bones" in multiple, high megawatt brain demanding, occupational genres any one of which many individuals would analogize as spending a season in a Cuisinart.

Successfully fending of the advances of many regulatory agencies and bureaus, one of which a very recent survey showed was more feared than the judgment of God.

I love the art of magic and collection of its artifacts and that is why I am a member of this forum.

Hawkers of platitude-filled "Success Models" of any type, are, in my personal opinion, to which I am entitled, saprophytes thriving on the dead host of individual failure and the aspiration that one need only take a "course" to raise their accomplishment status.

Anecdotal experiences may indeed be be purveyed in many media forms but real experience must be acquired in the same old hard way. Success courses are always shot through with promises and/or hints and/or intimations that my doing A + B + C, the reader has the ability to overcome mediocrity and/or failure.

In the case of aspiring young performers it is tantamount to their taking a Charles Atlas course and, when the final real results are tallied, wind up with sand still being kicked in their faces.

World history is filled with states being toppled by The Revolution of Rising Expectations precipitated by the unfulfilled promises of their princes.

Be careful that your intimations of hit a home run do not come back to haunt you in the form of a embittered performer who decides to even the score.[/font]
[font:Arial Black]
Happy New Year to you. :)[/font]
It's not about the magic; it's about the daily box office gross.

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Re: I'm a 20-year veteran of Corporate Entertainment and I'm Spilling My Brain

Postby Mark Phillips » January 3rd, 2009, 8:51 pm

Hey Brad,

Your approach appeals to you and me; we might be exceptions to his target audience. Perhaps the approach he is using has proven broad appeal. Still, I'm checking it out and hoping for the best.
Go practice.



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