Magic Takers

Post topics about the business side of magic.
Paul Cress
Posts: 5
Joined: June 24th, 2008, 1:54 pm

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Paul Cress » July 2nd, 2008, 7:26 pm

May I suggest that if we accept ethics as being 'rules of conduct recognized in respect of a particular group, to ensure a good life', and if that group is we magicians, then our group has simply become too large. Too much fat. Sickly. Gorged with people who, I am sure we all agree, have no place with us! People who value profit above 'the rules of conduct recognized in respect of OUR particular group'

Theres the problem, so where is the answer? Is not that a good topic of discussion?

In my opinion a little liposuction would not go amiss..... get rid of some fat. Or we will no longer be that GROUP due to said lack of rules of conduct.

How? Dont know . But one thing I am SURE about is that plastic surgery is not cheap, its going to take a ****load of money. Legal costs are high.

So, gentlemen I ask you a question, "How many of our 'group' do you think (and I do not mean solely of this forum), would put their money where there mouths are? How many of the, now fattened magic community do you think is meat and would make a contribution to the cause?

An optimist may say that for the large part, we are ALL greatly concerned by this sorry state of affairs and we do have ethics and want to do something about it.
If this is the case, its very simple then; let us put aside a sum of money, lets say a thousand dollars each in to a managed* fund. A hundred thousand believers and you've got a new religion there! A crusade even! (And even a new, healthier group).
After all, you can cause a person a LOT of aggravation with a hundred million dollars. Tracking somebody down aint easy as any 'Fat Tony' will tell you.

Of course this theory does not take into account for variables such as people who cannot keep a secret, poor accounting dilatory legal profession, high expense bills, avarice in fact, and of course, last but by nooohooo means least, APATHY!

And there you have it in one word gentlemen, APATHY. Our common sickness.

Oh, Ive been goin on and on , sorry, lets just ignore it and maybe they will go away, thats best. I can us that thou' to get the groceries next month.

As a dear departed friend once said to me 'creatief zijn, leer je eigen spullen maken, en zorg goed voor ze, want ze zijn je kinderen' or something like that. But Its now my way too.

Good Night all.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8214
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 2nd, 2008, 8:57 pm

Sure, let's pay a fortune to a blue ribbon committee who will announce some findings and eventually produce some guidelines. Some of us have seen that trick before. As to contributing to a fund set up to perform actions which are obviously illegal - that's conspiracy and complicity. No thanks.

IMHO as a community it's not liposuction or plastic surgery we need - as such changes only the form and not the character of the being. Likewise simply dismissing any and all who've set such a wonderful example of how we say we'd prefer folks not behave... that too seems counterproductive. What to do? That's really a grown-up question and not suitable for direct discussion when there are children in the room.

And in the mean time any ideas about those who sell and publish items which are not given into the community or without rights granted to manufacture - like the chop-chop cup, glorpy, zombie... ?
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on July 2nd, 2008, 9:10 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: be careful what you say, children listen.

David Alexander
Posts: 1549
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Aurora IL

Re: Magic Takers

Postby David Alexander » July 3rd, 2008, 12:06 am

Hey, great idea...first thing we do is get rid of the people who propose silly, unworkable ideas and build from there.

000
Posts: 563
Joined: April 16th, 2008, 10:01 am

Re: Magic Takers

Postby 000 » July 3rd, 2008, 4:08 am

Can Bob Farmer please tell us if Steve was aware of this situation or not? Im harping on about The Cafe, because a 'taker' needs a forum ( excuse the pun)to advertize his wares. Take that away, blacklist the blighter on E Bay and youve come a long way.

As for Zombie, patented 1940, now surely in the domain?

Paul Cress
Posts: 5
Joined: June 24th, 2008, 1:54 pm

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Paul Cress » July 3rd, 2008, 6:20 am

Oh, Mea culpa Mr. Alexander, mea culpa.

May I then look forward to reading your 'sensible', 'workable' proposals in the near future? Go on, dare to lay a building block of your own. Maybe someone will want to 'get rid' of you too as a result. Nice!

More importantly though, you could be onto something. How exactly would you propose to 'get rid' of me? Sounds sinister. Please let us know HOW you would to do this then we can apply your solution to the very people this thread addresses. Our problem duly solved.

If however I have misconstrued your point, my apologies. If not, then please feel free to reply with another equally sarcastic comment and maybe 'we can build from there'.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8214
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 3rd, 2008, 8:20 am

Paul, elswhere I've suggested taking magic back to a craft of applied guile and putting a greater emphasis on "need to know" and managing secrets through trusteeship. The interests of those who garner income from an open market in magic are not currently congruent to such an agenda. For now they are happy with an economy of scale and branding. Personally I see no laudable value served in burning wands on the lawns of those who worship mammon by making sacrifices of the trust and good will of others - nor do I see any great benefits to the education of the magic-lumpen, our consumer class, by making examples of those who have betrayed secrets into gossip and then commidified public knowledge. While such social patterns have been the norm in western civilization I just don't see that being our best guess at making things better - as fear itself is not a workable substitute for an abiding self respect which guides us toward treating others and their work with respect - at least not as far as an encouragement to keep the art growing and in tune with our larger society.

Perhaps a better start is keeping the company of those who share your interests and have enough human values to treat you and your works with respect. Build a social network and leverage the internet. Seems a sensible start IMHO.

I seem to have woken up on the Noam Chomsky side of the bed this morning.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on July 3rd, 2008, 8:23 am, edited 0 times in total.
Reason: was hoping for dr seuss but seem to be writing more like noam chomsky

Bill Palmer
Posts: 719
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Houston TX
Contact:

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Bill Palmer » July 5th, 2008, 5:03 pm

000 wrote:Can Bob Farmer please tell us if Steve was aware of this situation or not? Im harping on about The Cafe, because a 'taker' needs a forum ( excuse the pun)to advertize his wares. Take that away, blacklist the blighter on E Bay and youve come a long way.

As for Zombie, patented 1940, now surely in the domain?


Zombie is a rather interesting trick. As mentioned, it was patented in 1940, and the patent has expired. So it is by definition in the public domain. However, to further complicate matters, Joe Karson licensed it to several different manufacturers, each without the knowledge of the others.

Check with Mike Rose on this, he's the Karson expert.

Regarding the Bammo Deckronomicon and other ACAAN routines, I purchased the Bammo Deckronomicon, Marc Paul's Inspired by Berglas, and The Quest, all at the same time.

I was actually angry when I read The Quest, because the deck used in that routine is one I already had for another trick. I mentioned this to the person who produced it, and he became rather coy about the whole thing.

My analysis -- the Quest is a load of Quap. Bammo is far, far, better.
Bill Palmer, MIMC

User avatar
Matthew Field
Posts: 2827
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Slydini
Location: Hastings, England, UK

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Matthew Field » July 6th, 2008, 6:38 am

Bob Farmer -- Flashback: "You must sell me the routine for Mojo Boogie Boxes. Not the boxes. I don't want any stinkin' boxes. Just the routine. I've got the Boogie -- just send me the Mojo."

This is the logic of one "customer" exhibiting the same sort of slug-brain illogic to dictate what a creator can or cannot do with his creation.

Matt Field

Bob Farmer
Posts: 2532
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Short card above selection.

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » July 6th, 2008, 6:50 pm

I don't know whether Steve licensed the trick, you'd have to ask him. I have exchanged emails with Steve on a variety of matters, but I don't recall this one coming up.

As to magic-world-wide committees that would police these things, I'm not interested. I don't think it would work or be effective. Here's my personal approach:

1. I only market effects that have a considerable amount of value added to whatever principles or tricks I'm using.

2. I always include an extensive credit list and in appropriate cases (e.g., Roy Walton for my "Mutanz" effect), I obtain the consent of all of the key creators.

3. I only market stuff I'd want to buy if I wasn't me.

4. If I get ripped off (e.g., Kenton Knepper and John Mahood and the pathetic "K.E.N.T."), I figure out some creative revenge and bury the bastards.

5. As to customers complaining, in my entire career, I've only had three or four people (e.g., Matt Field's quote above) who seemed to be impossible to please. These complaints seemed to come down to the same thing: they were disappointed there was a trick involved -- they expected real magic (I'm not kidding).

As I've said before, the best thing we can do is educate ourselves and shun the magic takers.

Naphtalia
Posts: 109
Joined: January 30th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Naphtalia » July 7th, 2008, 9:23 am

Bob Farmer wrote:5. As to customers complaining, in my entire career, I've only had three or four people (e.g., Matt Field's quote above) who seemed to be impossible to please. These complaints seemed to come down to the same thing: they were disappointed there was a trick involved -- they expected real magic (I'm not kidding).


I work in a magic store, and we get this one constantly. My favorite was a magician who was absolutely stunned by a particular trick. He bought it because he had to know how it worked. When he read the instructions, he looked at me and said, "That wouldn't fool anybody." He forgot, of course, it had just fooled him.

Gotta keep reminding people the real magic is in the magician and in the audience.
Naphtalia


Impropriety is the soul of wit.

Bob Farmer
Posts: 2532
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Short card above selection.

Re: Magic Takers

Postby Bob Farmer » July 7th, 2008, 11:44 am

I had no idea this problem was so pervasive.

When I was living as an impoverished grad student in London, England in the mid 70s, I spent a lot of time hanging out in Ken Brooke's magic shop. One day a guy comes in and I recognized the type immediately: impoverished grad student from a third world country (formerly a British colony) with ritual scars on both sides of his face (probably a political science major at the London School of Economics looking to return to his country and take over the government in a bloody coup).

He wants a magic wand, so Ken lays out three or four different kinds. The guy asks, "Are they guaranteed?"

Ken says if he doesn't like the wand and he can bring it back and exchange it for another.

"BUT -- is it guaranteed -- is it GUARANTEED!?" the guy says, this time somewhat belligerently.

It is at this point that all present realized the guy thought he was in a real magic store and that he was buying a real magic wand for real magic.

Ken Brooke came roaring around the counter, grabbed the guy by the back of his neck and the seat of his pants and frog-marched him out the door and threw him into the hallway. I think Ken was yelling something like, "Get out you daft bastard!?" -- or whatever the Leeds equivalent of that might be.


Return to “Marketing & Magic Business”