Least favorite mental effects

Instead of mentally projecting your mentalism thoughts, type them here.
jimb_85
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Least favorite mental effects

Postby jimb_85 » September 6th, 2021, 7:05 pm

Are there any mentalism routines that you simply refuse to do because you dislike them? I've got a few that I don't think I'll ever perform:

- readings (they feel exploitative, and if you do a reading for someone who is a genuine believer, then you don't know how they could react)
- Rubik's Cube predictions (too gimmicky for my taste)
- progressive anagrams (always felt to me like a dressed-up form of guessing)
- iPhone/iPad effects (they'll know you're using an app)

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » September 6th, 2021, 8:29 pm

jimb_85 wrote:Are there any mentalism routines that you simply refuse to do because you dislike them? I've got a few that I don't think I'll ever perform:

- readings (they feel exploitative, and if you do a reading for someone who is a genuine believer, then you don't know how they could react)


I do readings all the time so obviously I don't feel they are exploitative (at least when I do them). However, you do have to know what you are doing and I concede a lot of people don't. However, readings are absolutely nothing to do with mentalism anyway. It is a completely different skill set.

However, with regard to your core question I find I dislike the majority of mentalism routines. They are too long winded and convoluted for my taste with the performer sometimes taking up to 15 minutes to get the trick over and done with .. Long winded magicians are ttiresome enough but long winded mentalism is torture beyond the imagination.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby jimb_85 » September 6th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Tarotist wrote:
However, with regard to your core question I find I dislike the majority of mentalism routines. They are too long winded and convoluted for my taste with the performer sometimes taking up to 15 minutes to get the trick over and done with .. Long winded magicians are ttiresome enough but long winded mentalism is torture beyond the imagination.


Fully agreed. Especially when they have someone go through incredibly convoluted steps.

"Okay, take the digits of your PIN code, reverse them, multiply by pi, and then subtract the number of hikers who died on Mount Everest."

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » September 6th, 2021, 9:38 pm

I am not completely averse to mentalism as I think that it is the strongest kind of magic if done well but regrettable the least effective if done badly. And I think it is usually done badly. However, the mentalists I personally have enjoyed the most were Al Koran, Chan Canasta, and Kreskin. Mind you I am not quite sure if Chan Canasta could be called a mentalist and I doubt he would have approved of the title either. I also like Uri Geller but I am not sure I would call him a mentalist either!

However, to me the best of the lot was Maurice Fogel. Hardly any footage of him anymore but this will have to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuAEzY5zVVk

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Diego » September 9th, 2021, 9:46 pm

"_______ isn't boring, YOU'RE boring!" Especially mentalism as well as magic is dependant on the performer, who knows their audience isn't there to be bored.
I second Maurice Fogel. I saw him at a magician's convention public show in 1979/80, (wish there was recording of it) at The Wilshire-Ebell theater in L.A. An education in showmanship and audience control.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Bill Mullins » September 10th, 2021, 10:44 am

Jamy Swiss, Genii, Jan 2010:
Teller once commented to me, many years ago, that the reason mentalism is so boring is because it largely concerns itself with the revelation of proper nouns, "a job best left to museums."

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby jimb_85 » September 10th, 2021, 7:38 pm

I'd have to agree with Teller's comments. If you're pretending to have legitimate psychic powers, why limit yourself to such mundane subject matter?

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » September 10th, 2021, 9:22 pm

I don't think it is the nouns that make mentalism boring. I think the main two factors are the personalities of the performers and how convoluted the material is. If the performer has not much in the way of personality that alone is an entertainment killer since there is not much to look at. A magician with a dull personality can get away with things a bit better since there are props to look at. A mentalist has nothing to hold attention with except his personality. And long windedness can be a REAL killer!

The other problem as has already been mentioned is the convoluted aspect of things. By the time you get to the end of the trick the audience has forgotten what the beginning was.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Mr. Woolery » September 15th, 2021, 11:45 pm

Personally, there are several things in mentalism that leave me cold:

Progressive anagrams and spelling trees just feel like exactly what they are. I’ve seen a number of videos that show performances that are supposed to be good. They all look like a fishing trip.

Any information regurgitation routines. I hate watching what purports to be a Q&A but really just highlights a clever way to read information as it is simply repeated back. “I think your mother’s maiden name was Smith!” I mean, meh.

Any version of creating a number in a confusing process, writing it in an unusual script, then turning it over to show that it looks like a word someone selected from a list or book with the performer’s guidance.

Magic squares. I love the concept and premise. I have yet to see a performance of it that I like at all.

Any app-based routine. There are apps that can be excellent as tools within a performance, but so little creative effort gets displayed, they all seem like variations on “here, use my phone to draw/write/select something and I’ll take back my innocent phone and tell you what it was.”

Book tests. Why do I only get to pick the first word on the page? Why do you have to bring the book? Why can’t I just pick a word in my own mind?

Most of all, I dislike mentalism that has no connection to the participants. I can guess your word, number, or other limited selection, but never say a word about WHY any of it should matter.

Patrick

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Mr. Woolery » September 16th, 2021, 12:01 am

Now, after that, I’d like to comment on a few other elements of the conversation so far.

There are different kinds of readings. I’ve worked at a local witchy shop as a palmist and tarot reader, so I have some experience with private readings. And I don’t think of them as mentalism.

However, a mini reading in a routine gives more interest and meaning to the performance. It can answer the “why.” For example, if I have you choose a card to remember and I go about trying to divine it, I might say “I sense a lot going on in your life, and I believe you will be drawn to a card that relates to your life right now. Everyone has problems, but I believe in balance your life isn’t all that bad right now. However, I do get the sense of some money concerns. From that, I believe you are most likely to have chosen a Diamond card. Did you?” Yes, you know they did. “And this is a time of change in your finances, to some degree. This means you chose either the ace or the five. Not sure about this, but I sense the energy of a new opportunity, either recently or in the very near future, so I’m going to say you chose the Ace of Diamonds.” The mini reading helps make the card divination meaningful and I think that’s better mentalism.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » September 16th, 2021, 9:06 am

I completely agree that private readings are nothing whatsoever to do with mentalism. It is a completely different skill set altogether. I do know that some mentalists do readings and use trickery in the doing of them such as centre tears and billet switching but I consider that silly at best and fraudulent at worst.

It is true that mini readings can sometimes enhance a performance but I prefer not to bother since when performing I want nothing to do with readings since I want people to laugh, gasp and enjoy themselves. I want nothing to do with readings since I do enough of the damn things as it is. However, I did see a numerology presentation to "Obliging Aces" in the recent publication "Annotated Royal Road to Card Magic". I rather liked this book. It seems that Michael Vincent sent the author an email saying it was "superb". I tend to agree.

Incidentally the best book for beginners on Tarot is entitled Streetwise Tarot which is being sold in bookshops all over the world. I know the author personally and consider him to be a genius of the first magnitude. Here is a link to said literary masterpiece:
http://marklewisentertainment.com/html/magicians.html

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby jimb_85 » September 18th, 2021, 9:57 pm

Mr. Woolery wrote:Personally, there are several things in mentalism that leave me cold:

Any version of creating a number in a confusing process, writing it in an unusual script, then turning it over to show that it looks like a word someone selected from a list or book with the performer’s guidance.

Patrick


I think that can be effective once or twice as long as it's not too obvious you're forcing the word on them, and that the upside-down reading isn't too much of a reach to have the numbers match letters (I've been running into similar issues with an ambigram-themed effect)

Mr. Woolery wrote:
Book tests. Why do I only get to pick the first word on the page? Why do you have to bring the book? Why can’t I just pick a word in my own mind?

Patrick


Fully agreed here. This is why when I do book tests, I make sure to use a method that allows the person to have a free choice of any word, not just the first one on a page or one they count to through a convoluted method.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Syzygy007 » October 6th, 2021, 3:29 pm

Whoa, interesting topic here. I have a lot of feelings about what I like/dislike in magic, mentalism, cinema, cigars, etc.

I'll post about what I dislike in a day or two but first, and what I would find helpful, is what I LIKE:

- I like a bit of surprise. For example, I have a version of Sum Total where I show the participants 4 cards with numbers and one blank card. They are then asked to generate a 6 digit number (no math, just "give me a number between 100-200, give me a number between 200-999"). The number they give matches the sum of the four numbers showing on the table. Direct, quick, clear. I didn't provide any of my script but there should be obvious openings for numerological readings if you have that sort of persuasion. I also didn't offer a plot. Both the lack of scripting and lack of plot are intentional as I worked really hard on both of those things.

What else do I like?

Well, this is because of my experience in magic and mental magic but a little bit of originality would be nice. I liked some of Cassidy's performances. I've like ZERO Cassidy rip-off performances (and some even use the same scripts and beats as Cassidy which is just so ... lazy).

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby jimb_85 » October 8th, 2021, 6:27 am

Syzygy007 wrote:Whoa, interesting topic here. I have a lot of feelings about what I like/dislike in magic, mentalism, cinema, cigars, etc.

I'll post about what I dislike in a day or two but first, and what I would find helpful, is what I LIKE:

- I like a bit of surprise. For example, I have a version of Sum Total where I show the participants 4 cards with numbers and one blank card. They are then asked to generate a 6 digit number (no math, just "give me a number between 100-200, give me a number between 200-999"). The number they give matches the sum of the four numbers showing on the table. Direct, quick, clear. I didn't provide any of my script but there should be obvious openings for numerological readings if you have that sort of persuasion. I also didn't offer a plot. Both the lack of scripting and lack of plot are intentional as I worked really hard on both of those things.



Now that is clever.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby BarryAllen » June 19th, 2022, 12:10 pm

Book Tests: whereby the Mentalist takes along his own books, just leaves me cold.

However, to watch Chan Canasta present a Book Test is a masterclass in audience management; and possibly the closest thing to 'the real deal' as you'll get.
https://youtu.be/I9Ckc_uVgLk

Now we don't all work in places that have libraries; but daily newspapers provide a suitable alternative. 'A First Class Newspaper Test', as outlined by Tony Corinda in the 13 Steps, is just about as powerful as any presentation available. Richard Osterlind performs it superbly.

Also have to agree with jimb_85 above. Anything with a Rubik's Cube, whether presented as a magic trick or mentalism, just makes my eyes glaze over.

I also agree with him regarding anything to do with Apps on mobile phones (cell phones). They just scream out that its technology behind the scenes, that's delivering the modus operandi.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby katterfelt0 » June 19th, 2022, 1:21 pm

BarryAllen wrote:Now we don't all work in places that have libraries; but daily newspapers provide a suitable alternative. 'A First Class Newspaper Test', as outlined by Tony Corinda in the 13 Steps, is just about as powerful as any presentation available. Richard Osterlind performs it superbly.

Thank you for reminding me of that, Barry. I'd forgotten how much I liked it.
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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby ChrisK » July 3rd, 2022, 7:15 pm

BarryAllen wrote:Now we don't all work in places that have libraries; but daily newspapers provide a suitable alternative. 'A First Class Newspaper Test', as outlined by Tony Corinda in the 13 Steps, is just about as powerful as any presentation available. Richard Osterlind performs it superbly.


I feel like these days I'd be significantly more suspicious of a newspaper than with a book. I haven't had a newspaper on my doorstep in over a decade, and I can't think of the last time I've seen someone read one out in the wild.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 3rd, 2022, 7:43 pm

Depends on where you live. In my neighborhood, many people (including me) still have a physical newspaper delivered daily.
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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Jack Shalom » July 3rd, 2022, 9:35 pm

I still don't get the appeal of the Seven Keys to Baldpate effect. Very boring to me, with either a ton of overproving or underproving.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby ChrisK » July 3rd, 2022, 11:50 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Depends on where you live. In my neighborhood, many people (including me) still have a physical newspaper delivered daily.


A fair callout, but even if they have it delivered, do they read it? Even if they read it, do they take it out of the home? I just don't see how brining a newspaper or newspaper clipping is less suspicious than bringing an examinable book.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 4th, 2022, 11:25 am

I don't think people would pay what physical delivery costs if they were not reading it. It's expensive.
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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » July 5th, 2022, 8:00 am

I read newspapers avidly. Newspaper publishers wouldn't publish the bloody things if nobody read them. There. I worked that out all by myself.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Joe Lyons » July 5th, 2022, 10:22 am

Jack Shalom wrote:I still don't get the appeal of the Seven Keys to Baldpate effect. Very boring to me, with either a ton of overproving or underproving.

I like the effect. I do a no touch version with a Hanzlik lock and my money at stake, which goes over well.
(I hate spectator embarrassed or at risk plots).

A brief story about paying a hardware store for a lock and 4 keys that don't work is amusing and an added convincer.

Using 5 keys doesn't burn a lot of time and the number fits my small parlor environment.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Bob Farmer » July 5th, 2022, 3:37 pm

The Premonition effect is not deceptive. My late mother, when in her nineties, noticed the duplication of cards. It makes sense that if a spectator is looking for a particular card, the spectator will note the mates of that card.

My version of this effect is much better: the named card is not in the deck but the three mates are.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby MagicbyAlfred » July 6th, 2022, 9:41 pm

Years ago I attended an Amazing Randi lecture in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. At the end, he performed his Randi Book Test. It was a fantastic presentation - knocked my socks off, especially the creative surprise ending. I liked it so much that I immediately sprang the 100-buck asking price (a bargain even way back then!) for the two hardbound books, The Odyssey and King Arthur and His Knights. Yes, I'm aware of those who disdain a book test where the performer has his own books, but in this case it is so strong that any weakness in that is overshadowed. The reactions are invariariably super strong and in the over 25 years I've been doing the routine, nobody has ever asked to examine or expressed suspicion about the books themselves.

But here's the irony: It's always been my favorite mentalism routine, and one day, I decided to check YouTube to see if I could find footage of Randi performing it. Lo and behold, despite my skepticism (ha ha), I was excited to come across a video of Randi performing a book test. Looks like he's at a trade show or maybe a convention, sitting down at a table. As the performance unfolded, I was very surprised (not in a good way), and I quickly realized that this was not THEE Randi Book Test in any way, shape, or form, but a very different and very lame version of the Book Test. My disappointment was palpable. I wondered if it would fool anyone who did not just fall off a turnip truck?

So, ironically, both my favorite and least favorite mental effects were both performed by Randi. See what you think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p2gWJ0ojoA&t=67s

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby BarryAllen » July 9th, 2022, 7:51 am

Got to admit Alfred, that wasn't the most convincing method/presentation of a Book Test that I've seen.

To my mind, nothing beats Chan Canasta's presentation.

Just as an aside mate, there's nothing fundamentally wrong in my opinion of using your own books IF you are presenting the effect within an environment whereby there are no other books available. You've been performing your preferred version for many years - so if you are comfortable working the effect and your audiences enjoy it, then that's the objective achieved.

To paraphrase the words of Tony Corinda "you should master ONE good way of doing something; never mind about variations - there is no necessity to search constantly for new and better ways".

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » July 11th, 2022, 12:54 pm

I remember the sensation that Chan Canasta's book test created among the British public at the time. It was all they would talk about to me at that time. The only vague explanation they seemed to have was, "He must have a fantastic memory". In any event I have never seen anyone create such a sensation with a book test in the way that Canasta did.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby BarryAllen » July 12th, 2022, 8:47 am

Tarotist wrote:I remember the sensation that Chan Canasta's book test created among the British public at the time. It was all they would talk about to me at that time. The only vague explanation they seemed to have was, "He must have a fantastic memory". In any event I have never seen anyone create such a sensation with a book test in the way that Canasta did.

Chan performed a number of different methods for Book Tests; some involving cards; one method whereby audience members called out letters of the alphabet (see link below); others with just the book and one of two suitable forces. Whatever version he performed, was a lesson in superb presentation.

Interestingly, in 1960, 'The People' newspaper; who had previously exposed The Piddingtons and Maurice Fogel, went out of their way to discredit Chan. This gathered momentum after the programme wherein he performed a Book Test, with a book chosen when he was in the TV Studio, whilst the helper was at a remote location (The Guildhall Library). He arrived at their offices and demonstrated, on the spot, various effects with their books that they tried to ambush him with. To Chan's credit, they failed to 'out' him and his reputation was enhanced even further.

Here's a rare clip of Chan performing the called-out letter version on Dutch TV:
https://youtu.be/JmYjHq-j9gg

I hope that you enjoy it.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Tarotist » July 12th, 2022, 11:08 am

What amuses me greatly about that clip are the comments underneath. They are full of praise and glory from magicians decades after he is dead and gone. However, at the time when he was active all the magicians did was criticise him!

My favourite memory of Chan Canasta is when he nearly got arrested for stealing a Goya painting from an art gallery. Someone stole the painting and it was national news. I remember seeing Chan staring into the TV screen addressing the invisible thief telling him he was a very clever man to have stolen it and he would be clever enough to put it back the same way he got it. The police went straight to the BBC studios and took Chan into custody suspecting that he was the thief all along!

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Bill Mullins » July 13th, 2022, 4:16 pm

Least favorite mental effect: "Which smell am I thinking of?"

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Brian Douglas » July 17th, 2022, 11:25 am

Animental. Apparently, a statement isn't a question even though it is put forth as one. Thus, no questions asked!

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Jack Shalom » July 17th, 2022, 11:46 am

It wasn't a question, was it?
I didn't think so.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Brian Douglas » July 17th, 2022, 12:03 pm

That is from 15 years ago I believe. Danny A. saw my comment on another forum and engaged me. There is nothing wrong with asking questions if you do it right, but his advert stated no questions asked. Now compare it to Banachek's 3 digit prediction where a miss is actually stronger than a hit (IMO), questions are fine and feel normal.

It's not a 'bad' trick. I do use a much broader numeric/mnemonic concept that I've been playing around with a bit. I was inspired by an old falling apart numbers magic paperback book I received.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby erdnasephile » July 19th, 2022, 3:05 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:I still don't get the appeal of the Seven Keys to Baldpate effect. Very boring to me, with either a ton of overproving or underproving.


I can relate. I used to feel that way until I saw Max Maven do it. I found his presentation to be original, intelligent, suspenseful, and highly entertaining.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Robert77 » July 19th, 2022, 8:53 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Least favorite mental effect: "Which smell am I thinking of?"


That gave me pause. We know there are common colors and names chosen. I wonder if there is a common smell?

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby PressureFan » July 19th, 2022, 9:00 pm

If there is, I'd say cinnamon.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Robert77 » July 19th, 2022, 9:03 pm

PressureFan wrote:If there is, I'd say cinnamon.



I was going to say something like "skunk" or "sewage". I wonder if good vs. bad smells are more likely?

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Jack Shalom » July 20th, 2022, 10:57 am

There is a scene in the stage adaptation of The Ginger Man where the smelly protagonist puts his nose into his armpits and exclaims, "Ah, new-mown hay."

To each his own.

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Bill Mullins » July 20th, 2022, 1:21 pm

Robert77 wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:Least favorite mental effect: "Which smell am I thinking of?"


That gave me pause. We know there are common colors and names chosen. I wonder if there is a common smell?


You might not want to respond seriously to my post . . . .

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Re: Least favorite mental effects

Postby Joe Mckay » July 20th, 2022, 4:10 pm

The title Seven Keys to Baldpate comes from a novel by Earl Derr Biggers. The novel was later adapted into a number of plays and movies.

It seems to be one of the earliest examples of meta-fiction. I love stuff like this.

Here is the plot:

Novelist Billy Magee makes a bet with a wealthy friend that he can write a 10,000 word story within 24 hours. He retires to a summer mountain resort named Baldpate Inn, in the dead of winter, and locks himself in, believing he has the sole key. However he is visited during the night by a rapid succession of other people (melodrama stock types), including a corrupt politician, a crooked cop, a hermit, a feisty girl reporter, a gang of criminals, etc., none of whom have any trouble getting into the remote inn—there appear to be seven keys to Baldpate.

Magee gets no work done, instead being drawn into the hijinks of the other visitors. He eventually foils a plot by the crooks to steal money from the hotel safe that is earmarked for a city street railroad deal, and he falls in love with the reporter. He observes derisively that all of these complicated incidents and characters are ones that he has written over and over again. Just before midnight, he finds out that everyone is an actor hired to perpetrate a hoax, orchestrated by Magee's friend to keep him from completing the story.

In the epilogue, the inn is empty, and a typewriter is clattering upstairs: Magee has finished his story before midnight and won the bet. He reveals that nothing had happened during the 24 hours; all the preceding melodrama, including the actors and hoax, constitute the story.


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