Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

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mrgoat
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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 12:24 pm

El Mystico wrote:Not sure what you mean by your comment, "Astounding! That was written by a hypnotist! Whodathunkit?!?!!"

Are you implying it is a lie and hypnotherapy is not available on the NHS?


Sorry you found it confusing.

I thought it was funny that a hypnotist wrote the article claiming hypnosis was efficient at dealing with that short list of very minor problems. I imagine a nice massage would also treat most of those problems with the same degree of efficacy.

And because the NHS does something, doesn't mean there is evidence to support its efficacy. Homeopathy also is available on the NHS. QED.

Now, go find me some evidence that hypnosis is effective in avoiding pain during surgery. Preferably double blind, peer reviewed and published in a medical journal.

I shan't hold my breath.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby El Mystico » September 24th, 2012, 12:26 pm

Oh, and here is your peer reviewed double blind test.



http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/co ... 7.abstract

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 12:28 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Damian, the notion of a double blind (or even a blind) study on anesthesia during surgery is frightening.

Presuming one would even start to design such a study - imagine getting to where you read part of the protocol involves saying "neutral inductions" before performing the surgical procedure in full. OMG- that's likely worse than the studies that were done during WWII.

:(

Yes to science. No to such cruelty, please.


I think it is really important to get evidence to support claims.

If Bill is right, then his belief would revolutionise surgery and dentistry over night. No more risky dangerous drugs to cure your pain, just a quick handshake and bob's yer uncle! Fantastic.

I just am at a loss to understand why there is no evidence to support the claim. I mean, if so many people believe, why has no one tested it. And I am sure there are methods of conducting a proper piece of research in the field without risking humans. Rats for example are often used in such experiments.

I sure wouldn't mind a few rats dying if we could finally do away with expensive dangerous drugs currently used to conduct painful surgery...

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 12:35 pm

El Mystico wrote:Oh, and here is your peer reviewed double blind test.



http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/co ... 7.abstract


Amazing. Done in 1969 and seems to conclude it is about as effective as a sugar pill. I can't read the PDF though, is it peer reviewed? Is it published in a medical journal? How big was the sample?

I would have concluded the same thing.

If it REALLY worked as suggested, why isn't it being used today instead of drugs do you think?

I mean, here is proof it works, in a certain condition, from 1969! I repeat my earlier conclusion, the vast majority of the medical profession must be idiots not to be using this.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby El Mystico » September 24th, 2012, 12:53 pm

Hi

as I have pointed out - it IS being used - it is available on the NHS.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby El Mystico » September 24th, 2012, 1:01 pm

mrgoat; when you write "it seems to conclude it is about as effective as a sugar pill" this is a complete misreading of what the abstract says. Actually, the paper concludes that the hypnotic effect was greater than the placebo effect.
It makes me wonder, what is the point of finding you peer reviewed double blind trials if you don't understand even the abstracts for them?
Perhaps a forum for magicians doesn't have the approprate level of medical understanding for this topic?

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby AJM » September 24th, 2012, 1:14 pm

This thread had the makings for an interesting discussion, both from a scientific/medical perspective and also from the viewpoint of those who claim to use hypnosis / mesmerism / suggestion / NLP techniques for the purposes of entertainment.

All may not be lost though - Damien, if you would just like to take a bite out of this nice big red juicy apple...

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 1:19 pm

El Mystico wrote:Hi

as I have pointed out - it IS being used - it is available on the NHS.


Oh I see the basis of your confusion.

I was talking about using it instead of drugs for surgery and dentistry as Bill claims. Not for relief of a headache or needle phobia as the NHS use it.

And again, homeopathy is available on the NHS. Does that mean you now believe homeopathy works?

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 1:20 pm

El Mystico wrote:It makes me wonder, what is the point of finding you peer reviewed double blind trials


It's OK, there are no peer reviewed, double blind, published in a proper medical journal research papers saying you should use hypnosis instead of drugs for dentistry or surgery, so your question is moot.

Thanks for trying though.

It's also interesting to look on the tabs on the right showing how many times the paper has been cited, how often it is referred to on google scholar, pubmed etc. Makes it seem not an awfully widely accepted piece of research...

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Bill Mullins » September 24th, 2012, 1:25 pm

El Mystico wrote:Oh, and here is your peer reviewed double blind test.

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/co ... 7.abstract


The paper is available HERE without going through a paywall.

From the first sentence:
. . . controlled experimental studies have not objectively substantiated its [hypnotically induced anesthesia] effectiveness.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 1:32 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
El Mystico wrote:Oh, and here is your peer reviewed double blind test.

http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/co ... 7.abstract


The paper is available HERE without going through a paywall.

From the first sentence:
. . . controlled experimental studies have not objectively substantiated its [hypnotically induced anesthesia] effectiveness.



It makes me wonder, what is the point of El Mystico trying to find peer reviewed double blind trials if he don't understand even the first sentence of them, and skims an abstract assuming it proves his point?
Perhaps a forum for magicians doesn't have the approprate level of medical understanding for this topic?

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby El Mystico » September 24th, 2012, 2:42 pm

If mrgoat took a break from his sarcasmatrons for a moment and actually tried to read the paper, he might realise that the first sentence is part of the introduction, rather than a summary of what their research shows.

BUT - I agree there don't seem to be any on its use during surgery.

BUT - I'd like to return to an earlier point. If the placebo effect exists, and lets assume for now that the placebo effect covers what people have seen through faith healing and hypnotherapy, why shouldn't medical practitioners make use of it?

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby mrgoat » September 24th, 2012, 2:56 pm

El Mystico wrote:BUT - I'd like to return to an earlier point. If the placebo effect exists, and lets assume for now that the placebo effect covers what people have seen through faith healing and hypnotherapy, why shouldn't medical practitioners make use of it?


They should. But they shouldn't call it Hypnotherapy or Homeopathy or Faith Healing or Magic Fairy Dust. They should call it Suggestion. And people shouldn't be charging huge amounts of money to practise it with no legislation or control or standards.

There should be laws stopping charlatans duping the desperate and needy.

It shouldn't be 'authenticated' by doctors, it should be explained as totally all in their head. Sure, it still works, but it is not a pseudo science, it is not hypnosis. It is suggestion.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby El Mystico » September 25th, 2012, 2:35 am

We agree. How boring.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Tom Pilling » September 25th, 2012, 5:34 am

What disturbs me is the sheer diversity that exists within 'hypnotism'.

One the one hand, I'd feel ambivalent about a friend or family member going to a 'hypnotherapist' because they were feeling tense, or dealing with smoking withdrawal. Like Damien, however, I would just as soon recommend going to have a decent massage.

On the other hand, some 'hypnotherapists' offer 'past life regression'. No comment needed. Funny, though, how many Cleopatras and Anne Boleyns there are walking around.....

Then there are stage hypnotists. These range from comedy "You will now behave like a chicken", to pseudo serious "You will not remember your own name".

To Joe Public, what differentiates these people from one another?

Regarding surgery and the placebo effect, as JT pointed out, double blind trials will never happen! Even the famous film of a woman in China having surgery using acupuncture neglected to inform the viewer that morphine had also been administered. Ted Kaptchuk, Harvard med., is worth reading on placebo. It is an important field of study.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 25th, 2012, 10:35 am

Early last century there was much fuss over the idea that perception (and by inference belief) has a large component that is both internal and subjective. Asking to what extent one can elicit patterns of perception and behavior though language raises old hackles.

At some point it comes down to "what do you mean by objective" as opposed to subjective - given our innate propensity to attribute associations and causal relationthips... and then more such to validate them.

So, did it hurt me more to write this post than it will confuse you as you come to understand it?

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Tarotist » October 28th, 2021, 10:37 pm

I am bringing back this old thread because there has not been a single mention of the most important book debunking hypnosis. Here it is:
https://www.amazon.com/They-Call-Hypnos ... 0879755768

I personally do not believe in the reality of hypnosis yet I also believe that "hypnosis" is a major boon to mankind. Figure that one out!

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 30th, 2021, 1:44 pm

Tarotist wrote:I am bringing back this old thread because there has not been a single mention of the most important book debunking hypnosis. Here it is:
https://www.amazon.com/They-Call-Hypnos ... 0879755768

I personally do not believe in the reality of hypnosis yet I also believe that "hypnosis" is a major boon to mankind. Figure that one out!


Maybe because people who participate in hypnosis therapy believe they have been empowered to overcome whatever addiction, psychological problems, or other problems that may exist in their lives and thus, at least in some cases, do manage to overcome it where they might not otherwise have done so?

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Tarotist » October 30th, 2021, 9:03 pm

You are correct. The placebo effect is very powerful. Hypnotherapy DOES work, whether used to stop smoking, lose weight or for all the various ailments that it is used for. That is because the mind affects the body.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 31st, 2021, 1:23 pm

Tarotist wrote: That is because the mind affects the body.


So concise a sentence, yet so powerful a concept.

It makes sense that mind and body are inextricably intertwined, since the seat of the mind is the brain, and the seat of the brain is the body. Well actually the brain is, of course, literally part of the body, and the command and control system of everything the body does, as well the where thoughts and emotions originate and are perceived and felt.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 31st, 2021, 6:08 pm

Mind is something the body does.

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby Tarotist » October 31st, 2021, 8:47 pm

It mentions somewhere on this thread that hypnosis is not used in surgery. Well, I happen to know that a renowned Irish surgeon by the name of Dr Jack Gibson used it extensively. Look him up.

Anyway, I used to believe in hypnotism whether on stage or in hypnotherapy but certain things made me suspicious especially with regard to stage hypnosis. No space to explain what those things were but I was beginning to smell a rat. An opportunity came up for me to find out for sure when I was in conversation with a legendary stage hypnotist. I was very eminent as a psychic reader at the time and he said to me, "I hope you don't believe in that psychic stuff. If you do you are dead!" Well, as it happens I DO believe in it but as far as I am aware I appear to be alive. Anyway, I decided this was an opportune moment to ask him about hypnosis. I said, "Do you believe in the reality of hypnosis or are you dead too?"

This extract from my upcoming book on stage hypnosis (The Royal Road to Stage Hypnosis) will give you his response. Incidentally the said literary masterpiece will be on sale in the next week or so.
.........................................................................................................................................................................................................

"When I first started my hypnosis career I asked a legendary stage hypnotist for advice. This fellow had retired from the stage and
had become a hypnotherapist. I looked him straight in the eye and asked him straight out,
“Are the people on stage really hypnotized? Are they really in some sort of altered state of consciousness or are they just kidding me and themselves?” My guru started to look uncomfortable and become evasive in his answers. However, I persisted and he gave in. He looked shiftily at his receptionist outside in the hallway then closed the door so she wouldn’t hear the conversation. He then looked at me and proceeded in a few sentences to explain the key to stage hypnotism. And it was probably the most profound lesson I had ever heard or will hear on the subject. This is what he said. “Look, I was a pioneer in this field. I was number one for about 30 years. In those 30 years I am quite sure I never hypnotized a single person on stage!” This was quite a shock to me and although I had pushed for the answer, I was nevertheless stunned to receive it. One of themost legendary stage hypnotists of all time had just, in so many words, told me he had been faking it for 30 years! After I recovered I asked him, “Well, in that case, how do you make the people do all those crazy things?” He stared at me and then uttered the key revelation which opened up a new career for me. “You manipulate them, don’t you?” You do, of course “manipulate them” and I’ve been manipulating them ever since"

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Re: Hypnotism and instant inductions in mentalism

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 31st, 2021, 9:39 pm

Tarotist, it appears that the legendary hypnotist gave you a very useful hypnotic suggestion.


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