New Dai Vernon DVD ReleasedI

[Q. Kumber]

It's obvious that the gentleman from Australia is not doing this as a commercial venture. $15 to include wordwide shipping will hardly show a profit. My feeling is he made the video at the time, purely as a record of the event, and now after 30 years feels he wants to share it. I've no doubt the parties involved will reach a perfectly amicable arrangement.

[Jonathan Townsend]

If all goes well via David Ben and the estate - it might get a better distribution through approved channels than just posting it online at YouTube.

[the Larry]

What I don't understand is why the estate immediately pulled out the 'seize and desist' attitude. Obviously such a video does not harm Vernon's legacy but furthers it. What do you expect to see? Vernon naked?

It is a shame that such attitudes will cause many unique historical records to be lost and hidden away. What a loss for magic.

The right attitude would have been. Oh cool a video of Vernon we didn't know about. Great that you went through the trouble of making it available to the magic community for such an affordable price. Please send a copy to the estate. We would like to add it to our collection.

[David Ben]

I treat everyone exactly the same on behalf of the Estate. Further, we try to work with every party to bring the material to a wider audience. The Estate is interested primarily in promoting the Vernon legacy, but part of that is to make sure that the footage or product reflects Vernon in way that the family regards as appropriate.

I'm not going to address Larry's comments because it would serve no point. We just disagree.

As for commercial considerations, the Estate believes that if someone is profiting off of the name and image of Vernon, than it is not unreasonable for the Estate to participate. The Estate has always been more than fair on this account and been focused on getting the material out to a wider audience.

As for product in question, I have had a very cordial exchange with Mr. Etherington, and he has expressed a willingness to work with the Estate. As I said to him in my emails, it is not, however, my decision. It is the decision of the family. I merely act as a conduit.

As for the friend of Mr. Gordon, I would encourage him to send me a note. Knowing the family as I do, I'm confident that the footage could be released in such a manner that it would be a credit for all concerned.

[Ian Kendall]

Can I be pedant du jour and say it's a 'cease and desist' order?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Ian, perhaps his "Dragon Naturally Speaking" got his inflection and went for the emotionally correct word rather than the one used in the common expression.

[Ian Kendall]

Brings a whole new thinking behind shouting 'Hold it!'...

[Jim Riser]

Jon;
It is my understanding that if it is considered "news", celebrity shots are fair game. If the footage was of Vernon getting into a limo, that would be news. But the images taken as news could not be slapped on mugs and sold. It seems to get pretty fuzzy in this area. Such "news" footage gets sold to tabloids all of the time. They, in turn, sell it to readers.

Perhaps Bob can enlighten us on the law in these circumstances.
Jim

[oliver twist]

Has anybody got it yet?
Bill

[oliver twist]

and howis the card to pocket routine? I wanted to get it, is it better than Revelations?

[J Bright]

At 86, Vernon is still an excellent performer. He performs three card monte, cards up the sleeve (w/ Will-O'-the-Wisp), cups and balls (w/ Silent Mora wand spin & vanish) and the linking rings. He also performs excellent Tenkai switches, as good or better than anyone, regardless of age.

At the end of his performance, he invites everyone to his 100th birthday.

- Jon

[Paul Gordon]

Just got it and watched it. Vernon's on TOP form; better, imho, than on Revelations. Great DVD, good quality and FANTASTIC service from Australia.

Paul Gordon

[Dustin Stinett]

(And, which is why I've decided to keep my extraordinary rare film of Bob Read private; forever!) PG

Paul,

No one can say "yes" if you never ask. Most of the time the issue is simply about asking permission: All too often, people follow the aphorism, "it's easier to beg for forgiveness than ask permission" and that's what leads to rancor where none existed.

If you have film of Bob doing his Cups and Ballsthe one major piece of his that is missing from the various video sets out there, then I hope you would work out something with his estate so more people can see that wonderful routine.

As for Mr. Ben, not only has he done a remarkable job with Vernon , but also with Lorraine, Zarrow, Bertram, and others he is currently working on. His foundation is about preserving, educating, and (in fact) sharingand doing so legally and ethically; something some folks do not seem to understand or appreciate.

Dustin

[johnmali]

I do not see the point keeping such private videos only for you. Haha, do not get me wrong, but it is so childish. All old material should be published or it will be lost forever, and we do not want that...

[billmccloskey]

Interesting points of view on both sides. On the one hand, the Vernon estate deserves its share of any profits generated through the use of Vernon's name and the estate is well served by Mr. Ben, a former lawyer I thought I read. This type of thing allows the eres of say, Woody Guthrie, to be compensated like someone else would open a trust fund. One can see the value in that.

Controlling the image of a man is another and different function. As in the last scene of John Adams when the aging Adams looked at the mural painted depicting the signing of the declaration of independence, he said, "Good art. Bad history." I'd rather see good history.

But there is another side that lives beyond the price tag and isn't about the money, money, money. The world of knowledge, scholorship (which is now not just the realm of the scholar sitting near some dusty books in the library of the New-York Historical Society, but the birth rite of anyone with than internet connection: real knowledge of the world shared around the world and with the world.

Knowledge for knowledge sake.

I also think that there are certain historical figures where the rights of history and knowledge outweigh the rights of commerce. Vernon is in that category, in my opinion. One or two a century shouldn't through the monetary and moral balance off that much where the world needs to quible the relative peanuts compared to the value to generations regarding such an historical find.

[Jonathan Townsend]

... and we do not want that...

Usually the very reason most folks are never made aware of what's kept in private collections. Kindly recall all the private collection looting that occurred during the second world war in europe and the huge troubles the survivors had and still have in reclaiming their family properties. Did you notice what happened to the two rare gold coins here in America just last year?

Feel free to donate what you will (of what is yours to donate) to the internet and free access. Kindly don't argue for a right to "ask" others to do so for some vague notions of a "public good" without also expecting to be called a hood just like Robin.

Gotta love history - did you ever wonder if civil war reinactors get to have slaves?

[Leonard Hevia]

I understand that when Professor Silverman worked on his biography of Houdini, at least one collector refused to allow him access to his collected volumes of Houdini's diaries. He certainly is entitled to keep them hidden from the world, but as Silverman mentioned:

But to my frustration, two collectors with sizable Houdini holdings gave me only limited access, and two others refused to let me see anything at all. May they live and be well, these folks. But they can't take their collections with them.

There seems to be something sinful about stopping the dissemination of knowledge. Perhaps Jonathan can explain why the slaves were prohibited from learning how to read and write.

[Richard Kaufman]

Ken Silverman did get to go through Houdini's diaries, but he was given a limited amount of time to do so. He did an amazing and expert job in extracting the information he did, which makes his biography still the gold standard.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...
There seems [to you?] to be something sinful [by what standards anyone else might apply?] about stopping the dissemination of knowledge [to whom and under what circumstances?]. Perhaps Jonathan can explain why the slaves were prohibited from learning how to read and write.

Most are taught the most basic rudiments, and no more, of a skill set to support their role in society. Such is why Swift and the Capeks works remain relevant and the facile can discuss knowledge without responsibility.

If you're talking about slaves in America two centuries ago, perhaps a more salient question might be whether we'd have developed our celebrated local forms of gospel, the blues and jazz music then?

Getting back to the Vernon item, I hope the collector and Vernon's estate can work out something that brings the item to market.

[Bill Mullins]

If you're talking about slaves in America two centuries ago, perhaps a more salient question might be whether we'd have developed our celebrated local forms of gospel, the blues and jazz music then?

Blues and Jazz didn't exist two centuries ago. Neither did much of gospel music as it is now sung.

[billmccloskey]

The development of jazz had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with the cultural intermixing of highly trained Creole musicians and post-reconstructionalist blacks who flooded into New Orleans from the plantations.

Blues development had really nothing to do with Slavery either. It was for the most part developed and popularized by a Jukejoint musician known as Charlie Patton, who was working long after slavery was over .

And modern gospel music as we know it was almost single handedly the creation of one man: Thomas Dorsey, who was initially a popular black entertainer who wrote the hit "tight like that." before moving to sacred music. again, in the 20's and 30's, long after slavery.

Okay, back on topic: Vernon.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...blacks who flooded into New Orleans from the plantations.

And that was only possible because...
And that leaves us to ask...
And that opens a general question of ...

I was eventually going to ask that same question but use the historical economics of Liverpool and The Beatles as the example.

More directly on topic: What concerns me is not the accumulation of storehouses of historical artifacts but the lack of historical sorting and dissemination of data that's over a generation old. That leaves us to hear strange accuastions of misbehavior on the part of Vernon as regards how he treated a young Persi Diaconis instead of contextual awareness that free spirts of the time acted irresponsibly in some ways yet quite innocently in most other ways. The custodians of the troves might not be taking on the responsibility of keeping their items in active use as resources or inspiration or performing wonders used to train their students. That potential loss of direct personal transmission of responsibility for keeping our history intact and our wonders in use concerns me.

[Richard Kaufman]

Fascinating tangent about Jazz and blues.

[Jeff Eline]

The development of jazz had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with the cultural intermixing of highly trained Creole musicians and post-reconstructionalist blacks who flooded into New Orleans from the plantations.

Blues development had really nothing to do with Slavery either. It was for the most part developed and popularized by a Jukejoint musician known as Charlie Patton, who was working long after slavery was over .

Couldn't be more wrong. Blues & Jazz weren't created in a vacuum. That's like saying Copperfield (or pick a name...) wasn't influenced by Kellar/Thurston/Jarrett because he wasn't around when they were alive. Nonsense.

[billmccloskey]

Actually jazz was very much created in a vacuum. I'd be happy to walk you through its evolution from Buddy Bolton on, but this is the wrong forum for that. And I think you will find that most scholars attribute the development and popularity of blues back to Charlie Patton. This is not to say that Patton wasn't influenced by other things as he created his style, but no one was playing like Patton before Patton and everyone was playing like Patton after Patton and every blues player from that time points to Patton as their main influence and inspiration.

The development of jazz and the unique series of events that led up to it is directly connected to the Jim Crow laws that went into effect that created a melding of Creoles and Blacks, which up until that time, didn't happen. Creoles and blacks did not mix before that time. it was the melding of expert musicianship from the creole side and the more improvisational style of the plantation blacks that was directly responsible for the creation and flurishing of jazz. Everything stems from Buddy Bolton.

[Bill McFadden]

Bill, I pretty much agree with your jazz assessment, but "Buddy Bolden" was something of a mythical figure. Jelly Roll Morton laid claim to the invention of jazz. What I didn't notice in this discussion is that the Creole and plantation workers' symbiosis was propelled, in part, by the advent of what was called Ragtime.
It then began to spread from the south (New Orleans) to Chicago, Kansas City, and New York.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Actually jazz was very much created in a vacuum. ...

While modern physics has it that some things are created spontaneously in a vacuum, American gospel and jazz came into being here in America under some specific conditions among some specific people who had a specific history and came to America in a specific way. More directly, most people would not suggest those "plantation blacks" come from a vacuum - unless you're suggesting that some home schooled folks are learning American history that way or have evidence that Field of Dreams style "if you build it they will come" really works.

[John Lovick]

Actually Jazz was very much created in a vacuum... The development of jazz and the unique series of events that led up to it is directly connected to the Jim Crow laws that went into effect that created a melding of Creoles and Blacks, which up until that time, didn't happen.

Yeah, that sure sounds like a perfect description of a vacuum, all right.

[billmccloskey]

Again, this is a magic forum, but music has been my love for all my life: the only subject where I have more books than magic, is my collection on the history of music, particularly jazz. I play jazz trumpet and have been playing blues and side guitar for 40 years.

I could very much argue that all major genres and styles of music are the result of very powerful and original musical geniuses that create a tsunami of creativity: Bluegrass owes its existence to Bill Monroe, Bebop owes its existence to Bird and Diz trying to work out the harmonic ideas of Theloneous Monk. Jazz from the 20's on owes its existence to work of Louis Armstrong and Bix Beiderbecke (who recorded the first jazz solo ever). And on and on: once the initial impact is made, others come in and expand and add to the concept.

[billmccloskey]

"Jelly Roll Morton laid claim to the invention of jazz. "

Jelly Roll Morton laid claim to creation of the universe. He was a creol by the way. and certainly ragtime was a precursor to jazz, but very different.

[billmccloskey]

"
Yeah, that sure sounds like a perfect description of a vacuum, all right."

the vacuum was New Orleans: in fact one particular area of New Orleans and only because of the political and socio-economic climate of the time. That is about as close to a vacuum you'll get.

[John Lovick]

I think it's pretty clear that when Jeff said "Blues & Jazz weren't created in a vacuum" he meant something along the lines of "in complete isolation with no outside or previous influences".

Your description of these various elements and cultures coming together (all with their own outside and previous influences) is the exact OPPOSITE of a vacuum.

[Jonathan Townsend]

There are significant distinctions between a vacuum and the state of denial.

So was it a "Field of Dreams" thing where someone put a guitar into a plantation field and millions of people appeared or did they come from somewhere else, and if so how?

This is starting to remind me of the joke about a guy who sees an overturned truck that was full of bowling balls near his house and runs into his shed for a sledge hammer and starts smashing the balls. Here we are talking about preserving history and yet some bright and well read folks are able to make a significant factor in our historical culture and those directly affected by that factor vanish. That's an impressive trick. On the psych side exploring the perimeter of that hole and the sentiments and density of knowledge associated on the inside and outside of that hole is an intriguing and tempting topic of its own. As a magician it's amazing to see how internal misdirection looks in action. As someone with a music background it's also tempting to poke folks by asking if Beethoven's Fifth Symphony would have existed if Beethoven weren't also aware of folks nodding off during other musical performances of the time. But here we are - in a magical field of dreams arguing around some "public good" of preserving artifacts with and without the owner's permission by putting them into reproduction on the public market.

[billmccloskey]

"he meant something along the lines of "in complete isolation with no outside or previous influences". "

Well, unless we are talking about one of those "wild" children that are raised by wolves in complete isolation from any other human beings, I don't really think your definition of a vacuum means anything significant: nothing is a vacuum by that definition. but the reality is that jazz was created in a particular place and time as a result of unique circumstances that existed no where else on the planet, at a unique juncture of history and circumstances that was short lived and never existed again. If things had not aligned exactly as they aligned in New Orleans at that particular point in time, jazz as we know just would never have happened.

John, if you don't think that is a vacuum, so be it. We'll disagree and it really isn't important anyway. last post on this topic by me since I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already, and to really debate the point would take much longer than we can do here.

[Jonathan Townsend]

...I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already, and to really debate the point would take much longer than we can do here.

Bill, we are discussing the ethics of preserving artifacts of historical significance and the personal context of such decisions by others to do that preserving. We are IMHO on topic but using something less loaded in magic than the Vernon estate on one side and the curiosity and presumed interest in history of the magic market/public on the other side. That some here can vanish millions of people and call their history, living conditions and perceptions of their time in question as informed by their recent tumultuous oral history a vacuum is very much on topic and of interest here as well.

[Bob Farmer]

Bill, I'm shocked that you have ignored the contributions of Kenny G.

[billmccloskey]

Jonathan,

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your posts well enough to respond.

[billmccloskey]

Bob: thanks for making my day.

Where would elevator music be today if it wasn't for Mr. G.

[John Lovick]

Thank you BIll, I sent you a PM.

[billmccloskey]

Do PM's work on this site? I can't find where they are if so.