New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

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Frank Starsinic
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New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Frank Starsinic » March 26th, 2004, 5:06 pm

Do you smell bacon?

I'm experimenting with wooden dice stacking cups to offer a durable cup with a completely smooth interior at a good price.

I have the first prototype available for your perusal at

http://www.theambitiouscard.com/?ref=genii

They are not for sale yet.

This particular cup was turned from a solid block of walnut. The tree was cut down in 1984 right out of the University of California at Davis swine unit.

The pigs chewed the bark off... and the tree was dying :(

Since that time, it's been used for making fine wood products such as bowls. If bowls, then why not cups, I say.

The wood is beautiful. The cup stacks great.

I will post the price as soon as the prototypes are complete and I select the finalists.
I'll offer a 4-high and a 6-high.

As always, your comments are welcome.

Thanks,
Frank Starsinic

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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2004, 3:02 am

Yes, I DO smell something...

My only comment is that Joe Porper is already doing this - and producing a much better looking product, as well.

But it IS sad to see his idea so openly "borrowed", especially by someone who is not a craftsman - just a middleman.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Bob Walder
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Bob Walder » March 27th, 2004, 10:18 am

Just been to Joe's site and cannot see anything there which looks like it might have been "ripped off" by Frank's stuff. Am I missing something?

Why does everyone have to be so nasty/negative when people - who are only trying to make a living - first post their ideas/announcements of new products here? This is not the first time I have seen this here - is rudeness and small-mindedness a prerequisite for being a magician these days?

Even if Frank IS ripping off Joe (unlikely from the look of it) I think there are better ways of approaching the subject - in my dealings with Frank, he has always struck me as being an OK guy.

Perhaps I am just not cynical enough, or have not been practising magic for long enough for my nasty side to develop.

Bob :confused:

PS Frank - I think the cups look great, by the way! :)

Frank Starsinic
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Frank Starsinic » March 27th, 2004, 10:24 am

Thomas, if it doesn't look like his, what exactly am I knocking off? :whack:

Making a similar product does not consitute a knock-off or we'd all be using the same set of copper cups for the cups-and-balls.

Thomas, your continued willingness to harshly criticize people in an open forum with the little information you gather is impressive.

I'll contact Mr. Porper directly.

Bob, thank you for the kind words.


Regards,
Frank Starsinic

Bob Walder
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Bob Walder » March 27th, 2004, 10:49 am

Precisely - just because both cups are made of wood surely does not mean Frank is "knocking off" Joe's design?

Is Jim Riser "knocking off" Danny Dew's stuff 'cos they are both using copper as the material for their cups? Hardly!

Surely there is room for multiple designs? I have seen much closer "knock offs" in designs of metal cups that are out there right now.

Bob

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Pete Biro
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Pete Biro » March 27th, 2004, 11:23 am

I have a collection of dice cups, cup cups, etc. and a couple of wooden cups that were made for dice stacking... none exactly the same.

Porper cups have a beautiful inlaid pair of dice and are covered with exotic skins... I really don't think there is much similarity here.
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2004, 12:05 pm

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
Thomas, if it doesn't look like his, what exactly am I knocking off? :whack:

Making a similar product does not consitute a knock-off or we'd all be using the same set of copper cups for the cups-and-balls.

Thomas, your continued willingness to harshly criticize people in an open forum with the little information you gather is impressive.

I'll contact Mr. Porper directly.

Bob, thank you for the kind words.


Regards,
Frank Starsinic
Perhaps "knocked off" was a bit too harsh.

But I personally have never seen a dice cup - specifically designed for dice STACKING - made of wood, before Joe Porper produced his. I've seen leather ones, plastic ones and even metal ones, but not wooden ones. Doesn't mean it hasn't been doen before, just means I haven't seen it. Additionally, I just spoke with Joe and confirmed that, has far as he is aware, the idea is original with him. He further mentioned that he has already expressed some concern about what you're doing. Most importantly, given the amount of attention that this product has received lately - being featured in Genii magazine and on several websites - I think it's reasonably obvious where this "New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup" idea came from. However, in the interest of being less harsh, I've edited my original post to read "borrowed".

The various analogies to metal Cups-and-Balls cups notwithstanding, perhaps a closer analogy might be producing someone else's original gaffed bending spoon, but with a fork instead. It certainly LOOKS different, now doesn't it? But in reality it is another man's idea just being "borrowed" (and changed slightly) by a profit-hungry marketeer.

Now – on the other hand - if by "harsh" you mean my use of the word "middleman", well I don't think that's harsh at all. Other people – actual craftsmen – make your products and you only add profit, right Frank? That's the classic definition of a middleman so I hardly think it can be considered harsh.

Best Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Frank Starsinic
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Frank Starsinic » March 27th, 2004, 12:27 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
I have a collection of dice cups, cup cups, etc. and a couple of wooden cups that were made for dice stacking... none exactly the same.

Porper cups have a beautiful inlaid pair of dice and are covered with exotic skins... I really don't think there is much similarity here.
Thomas, I think Pete has addressed your major concern.

Regarding the craftsman issue, if you want to lose sleep over wondering how involved I am in design, product selection, style, quality control, size, shape, color selection, driving, calling, emailing, packaging, shipping, receiving, purchasing of equipment, paying for prototypes, adjusting designs, and construction of any part of any of the products I sell, be my guest.

geez.

Jim Riser
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Jim Riser » March 27th, 2004, 1:04 pm

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
<snip>
Making a similar product does not consitute a knock-off or we'd all be using the same set of copper cups for the cups-and-balls.
<snip>
Frank, sounds like a good idea to me and I can suggest a designer/maker of copper cups :D

BTW - Dare we as magicians ask where the Joe Porper Cup design originated? :confused:
Jim

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Brad Jeffers » March 27th, 2004, 1:38 pm

Aren't the Jim Zachary dice cups made of wood? He's been marketing these for years. If one is going to accuse Frank of knocking off the Porper cups, then I guess they might as well accuse Joe of knocking off Jim Zee.

The analogy of the bending spoon trick vs the bending fork trick is not a good one.

Personally, when doing a dice stacking routine, I like to use a regular leather dice cup - the kind that exists in the real world. Straying to far from this type of familiar looking cup, doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Bob Walder
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Bob Walder » March 27th, 2004, 2:18 pm

Tom's arguments simply do not stand up to me - sounds like Mr Wayne has a personal issue with Mr Starsinic which would be best restricted to private e-mails or face-to-face meetings.

Not that I am suggesting for a minute that people should not be able to post their opinions here, you understand - that's what it is for - but I am getting a little tired of reading so many "back biting" and downright nasty posts

My 0.02 - YMMV

Bob

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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2004, 2:44 pm

Hi everibody,

Just in case this may interest somebody. In fhe Treborix book Fantaisies avec les des a jouer (english translation by Victor Peacock :Diversions with dice) he recomends to use a polished box (cup) of turned wood.
No publishing date in either editions but I bought mine in 1967 and it was already an old book and there is a caricature of Treborix in dec 1948 magazine LEscamoteur doing dice stacking

Boby Bernard from England ;I met in 1973 FISM in Paris, also used wood cup for his routine School for Croupiers in Gansons Fine Art of Close up Magic and Gansons Teach in Series booklet on dice stacking

BTW wooden turned cups were/are quite common in Europe and I own several old and new ones.

Best to all Camilo

Oliver Corpuz
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Oliver Corpuz » March 27th, 2004, 4:51 pm

My Jim Zee stacking cup is not made of turned wood. It is comprised of a hard plastic body, with a black ribbed soft liner on the inside and a thin layer of wood, with a nice inlay, wrapped around the plastic body on the outside. Works great.

Regards,

- Oliver

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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Guest » March 27th, 2004, 6:56 pm

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
Thomas, I think Pete has addressed your major concern.

Regarding the craftsman issue, if you want to lose sleep over wondering how involved I am in design, product selection, style, quality control, size, shape, color selection, driving, calling, emailing, packaging, shipping, receiving, purchasing of equipment, paying for prototypes, adjusting designs, and construction of any part of any of the products I sell, be my guest.

geez. [/QB]
Not wondering or losing any sleep over it; I already know the answers to those questions. Just looking for some clarification. After all, in the recent past you've posted the following statements:

&#8220;I have enough people interested that I have started making leather cones.&#8221;
AND
[regarding leather chop cups] &#8220;They should be ready any time. I am going to make them somewhat bigger. They are just a little too small for what I want.&#8221;
AND
&#8220;I made one that looks like what some of you guys have been asking
about. It could be used as a dice up. It looks like a dice cup.&#8221;
AND
&#8220;I create leather chop cups.&#8221;

But you're not really &#8220;MAKING&#8221; anything; you haven't &#8220;MADE&#8221; anything and you certainly don't &#8220;CREATE&#8221; anything, do you Frank?

To be fair, you also have occasionally written: &#8220;I had made&#8230;&#8221; or &#8220;I just got in some&#8230;&#8221; thereby suggesting your true role in the process. But for the most part the question of origin of your props has seemed kind of ambiguous, at least to me.

Notice that I'm not the only one who might have found your posts misleading. Pete Biro wrote [in this forum]:

&#8220;Frank doesn't need help MAKING it, he is a terrific leatherworker. He has a line of cups (dice, chop, etc.) made in leather that are beautiful. He should post his link here on Genii in the for sale section.&#8221; [and, though you posted again to this same topic, you failed to correct Pete's mistaken kudos]

Others have also mentioned the beautiful leather props that you &#8220;make&#8221;. But the truth is you don't MAKE or CREATE anything. Someone else does; you just add the profit. In spite of your website claim: &#8220;We create custom leather magic props as well as several standard props&#8221;, you're really just a retailer. Nothing wrong with that&#8230; just calling a spade a spade.

I remember a while ago when someone started marketing a &#8220;corner rounder&#8221; for making short cards. Soon after this came out the magic forums were flooded with posts about how the identical item could be found a office supply stores for a fraction of the magic shop price. In fact, the distributor of this magic prop had simply taken someone else's work and put their own name on it (literally, a stick on label).

Now, what you've done is to take fairly standard leather magic props to a local leatherworker and have him reproduce them. This could be easily done by anyone with a well-staffed shoe shop in his or her hometown. Of course, that would eliminate the middleman; interestingly, this is something magicians usually seem to think is a pretty good idea.

Maybe it comes down to a crediting issue; it seems reasonable to me that the actual artisan should get at least a little credit for his work. And, as someone who's spent his entire adult life creating specialty items from raw materials, I just wanted a little clarification regarding your role in the whole magic prop industry. Guess I got it.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

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Wolfgang
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Wolfgang » March 27th, 2004, 9:17 pm

I really do not understand what the issue is Thomas. Are you angry because frank found somebody that is producing items to his specifications? What is wrong with that. Are you taking offense because he is trying to generate interest in the product.
You must be a real difficult customer in the real world....do you really think that an item can only be sold by it's manufacturer. I am sure you occasionaly shop at Walmart or similar, would you rather fly to China directly to eliminate the middleman?
Please be so kind and let us know what your real beef with Frank is, maybe we can all work to help clear up the real issue? :(

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: New Wooden Dice Stacking Cup

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 27th, 2004, 9:27 pm

Since it is now quite plain that the idea of making a dice stacking cup out of wood is an old one, Thomas Wayne's initial claim makes no sense, and neither does the rest of this thread.
Case closed.
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