Greedy Bastard on eBay

[Richard Kaufman]

Now here's a greedy bastard: Selling a Tenyo Coin Fan on eBay--no bidding, just a buy it now price of $200!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 3104590029

[Dustin Stinett]

Since I am Tenyo-challenged (read: I don't know jack about Tenyo stuff) and I hope I'm not alone in my ignorance, could you give us an idea of a realistic value?

Dustin

[Richard Kaufman]

Well, if someone was really desperate to buy one, they might (MIGHT) spend $100.

[Dustin Stinett]

So you are saying that I'd probably be wasting my time putting my only Tenyo item (the thing with the four quarters that are penetrated by the pencils, whatever it's called) which is not in its original box and I probably couldn't find the little gizmo that resets the gaff on a dare (even though you really don't need it) on eBay for $500?

Dang!

[Guest]

Wow, I guess I shouldn't have reworked mine into an 18th century style prop then.

[Bill Mullins]

How long ago was it that someone who would try to sell a set of Paul Fox cups for $200 would be thought of as a greedy bastard?

[Dustin Stinett]

Hey Bill, are you selling some Fox cups for $200?!?!? :D

I noticed that this person has a couple other Tenyo items at the same price. I also noticed that they are described as "antique." Aren't there some kind of accepted criteria for the use of that word? Isn't it 100 years from the date of its production? When does something become "vintage"? That's another word tossed about on eBay with reckless abandon.

Just wondering out loud...

Dustin

[Guest]

Greed?

How about the carrion that go to a Ricky Jay book signing and then sell it on ebay the following week? Little wonder he gets ticked off with "fans".

[Michael Edwards]

The financial value of an object is what someone is willing to pay for it. No more. No less.

[Richard Kaufman]

Well, Michael, that's not really true. There is often a generally-accepted value for something. When one greedy bastard decides to artificially increase the value, and some nut (I have been this nut on occasion) pays that inflated price, it throws the established "value" completely out of whack. All the other people who have this same item to sell are going to then price it at this same nutty level ... and this frustrates other potential purchasers. Eventually, and sometimes it takes years, the prices settle back to their natural level again. You saw this happen with the Midget Magician. It was NOT worth what was paid for it.

[Carl Mercurio]

I'm not a collector; just doesn't interest me. But I have to say I'm amazed by the prices some things go for on eBay. I saw the Tamariz book Sonata sell for $150. I think I paid $40 for it originally at a lecture, and it's signed by Tamariz. One day, no doubt, my wife will sell it after I'm gone.

[Michael Edwards]

Richard, I don't really disagree. There certainly are well-accepted "values" for many items. But we have both seen many, many instances where some of those items fetched far more (and, on other occasions, brought in far less) than that standard. If prices are set "artificially" high and those prices are realized, they can play havoc with the market...at least for a while.

[Mark Jensen]

As a collector (not only just magic "stuff", but as my wife would say...everything under, over, behind, inside and around the sun) I think that there are a lot of factors that play into an items value (perceived and actual).

Here are just a few of these factors that come to mind:

• rarity
• availability (an item may be available in area 51, but not area 52)
• competitiveness of bidders (bidders have been known to get carried away)
• Length of Search (how long has the collector been looking for an item? Is it the last item they need to complete a collection. Some people will pay a premium to complete a collection)
• etc, etc, etc...

Do I think some things are over priced? Absolutely!
However, artificially inflated prices generally won't last over an extended period. Some people will sell and buy at the inflated price, but many won't buy and the market demand will drive the price down. (Just pull out any price guide and look at the prices of items over an extended period of time....the prices go up and they come back down).

Just a few thoughts on collectable pricing.

Mark

So, what am I bid on some Christmas Cookies partially eaten by Saint Nick himself? ;)

[MaxNY]

Sometimes you just get lucky... I bought a Gilbert set on E-Bay last week for $40! I once bought a Reynolds poster book hard cover; and I hear that these don't exist, Grandway going out of buisness sale.... $3!
Been looking for a part to my Lancia Scorpion for six years now...nada.

[Richard Kaufman]

What the heck is a Lancia Scorpion?

[Guest]

Originally posted by MaxNY:
Sometimes you just get lucky... I bought a Gilbert set on E-Bay last week for $40! I once bought a Reynolds poster book hard cover; and I hear that these don't exist, Grandway going out of buisness sale.... $3!
Been looking for a part to my Lancia Scorpion for six years now...nada.

The Reynolds book was published in hardcover very limited edition for libraries..I have only seen one copy of it for sale..It went for well over $200 US...

When ever we used to pass through small towns I would search old bookstores for bargins on rare books. With the advent of the internet, this has become much trickier...

Rosie

[MaxNY]

Richard, I still might have my coin fan instructions... I'll have to check. Would they say Tenyo on them? It's funny, last time I was in Tannen's, there was some young scraps looking to buy beginner stuff, and I suggested the coin fan. This was one of my first tricks that I ever bought from Tannens...the salesguys never heard of it.
---Lancia scorpion is Pininfarina's first whole car, Dog engine, Delorian stole the lines, 1977 preferred year (split window glass sails) only 436 imported.

[Dick Koornwinder]

Well, there are greedy sellers but also a lot of strange bidders on eBay. Last Friday there was an original Koornwinder Kar for sale. Im still in shock. :confused: :confused: :confused: In the last 29 minutes the price went up from, a reasonable, $93 to $202.50. I congratulate the seller!!

[Richard Kaufman]

My sister-in-law found me a copy of the hardcover Reynolds' poster book for only a few dollars at some flea market in Omaha. It had been in a library at one time. Perfect condition. $5, I think. :)
Sometimes greedy bastards get lucky. A little while ago some guy was selling a Mysto Magic No.5 set from the 1940s on eBay. He said the pieces had never been removed from the box and it was mint. Well, it was quite obvious to me that the pieces had been removed from the box and I wrote and told him so. He responded that HE had removed the pieces to examine them.
A set like this is worth between $500 and $1000 TOPS. Some idiot paid over $4,000 for it. Very sad.

[Chris Bailey]

I remember some years ago BEFORE ebay someone was going to sell a set of Paul Fox cups for about $150. I was very interested of course. That was the moment that someone else that already had a set was nice enough to tell the guy not to sell them for anything under $400. He then apologized to me saying "I have to protect my investment. If he sells those to you for $150, it brings down the value of MY cups." Uh....gee. Thanks
I bought some Miller style cups from Magic, Inc instead.

[Chris Bailey]

The internet IS making stuff like this tricky. It's making the world a small place. I picked up a copy of Garcia's hard cover sponge ball book for $15 in excellent condition. Good luck doing that now. If someone has something and doesn't know how much is should sell for they can go to ebay. I remember buying one of Ricky Jay's posters at his 52 Assistants show for $20. A week later one sold on ebay for $420.00. Holy moley!

[CHRIS]

I don't think that much has changed. Bargain's can still be found, just as before the event of the Internet.

One has to look around, albeit in different places. That is not to say that one couldn't get lucky on ebay, but chances are much reduced due to the many eyeballs observing it.

I found on the Internet a "Card Craft" for $25 a few months ago (prestine condition), and Hofzinser reprints for $7. These things are out there. Go find them.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Chris Bailey:
The internet IS making stuff like this tricky. It's making the world a small place. I picked up a copy of Garcia's hard cover sponge ball book for $15 in excellent condition. Good luck doing that now. If someone has something and doesn't know how much is should sell for they can go to ebay. I remember buying one of Ricky Jay's posters at his 52 Assistants show for $20. A week later one sold on ebay for $420.00. Holy moley!

Chris:

Scarcity issue aside, how good is the Garcia book? I have never seen this, but the book is taking on a mythical status due to the recent prices on various auction sites.

Hype or substance?

[Doug Brewer]

Graham: I also have the Garcia book, hard cover. I bought it about 8 years ago for $40. That aside, the book does have good material in it. I'd say if I had never seen a spongeball routine in my life, it would be an outstanding value. It shows quite a number of "moves", then describes some nice routines (from Frank and other contributors). It has many of the now classic sets (10 count routine) and moves (retention vanish). Some of these routines and moves are covered in the Stars of Magic video with Frank, but the book is definitely more comprehensive.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Doug Brewer:
Graham: I also have the Garcia book, hard cover. I bought it about 8 years ago for $40. That aside, the book does have good material in it. I'd say if I had never seen a spongeball routine in my life, it would be an outstanding value. It shows quite a number of "moves", then describes some nice routines (from Frank and other contributors). It has many of the now classic sets (10 count routine) and moves (retention vanish). Some of these routines and moves are covered in the Stars of Magic video with Frank, but the book is definitely more comprehensive.

Many thanks for illuminating my darkness Doug.

best, Graham

[GAMOLO]

As I guess most know, I collect apparatus & stone lithos.
For no rational reason, however, I never got the Tenyo or magic set bug; hence know nothing about fair value for same.

BUT, with regard to purchasing genuine Magic collectibles, I am always comforted by the maxim:

YOU CAN NEVER OVERPAY; YOU JUST BOUGHT EARLY!

[Brad Jeffers]

Mark Jensen said "I think that there are a lot of factors that play into an item's value (perceived and actual)..." But if you think about it, the only value anything really has is it's perceived value. I would hesitate to call someone a "greedy bastard", just because they are trying to get the most they can for something. If no one perceives that the item is worth that much, then it will simply go unsold. A lot of people have mentioned the bargains that they have come across. If I see someone offering a copy of Cards as Weapons for $5 and I purchase it without informing them that they can get $200 for it on Ebay, could I not then also be labled a greedy bastard. Mabey so. ;)

[Guest]

Greetings:
As a dealer in magic books, not to mention the author of "A Price Guide to Magic Books," I wanted to address a few points that I think have been overlooked in this discussion, plus offer an example that I think will astound you.

First, there's the issue of time & its value. I spend a good amount of my time researching the value of magic books. This is my job. There are many people who will spend countless hours searching eBay, antique & book stores, etc. in efforts to save themselves money, sometimes only a few dollars. Doesn't this time have any value? Shouldn't this value be factored into the price? Granted, some people enjoy spending their time this way & don't look at it as an investment, yet most people don't even consider this factor. Ironically, while many people are willing to spend huge amounts of time searching for deals on magic collectibles, they won't spend this kind of time trying to find better prices on other things where the savings could be greater (e.g. computers, clothing, etc.).

Second, I'm not sure if I agree that there is a "generally accepted value" for these things. Who decides this? I'm constantly surprised by people who claim to know the "value" of a particular item. What makes them an authority? How much time have they devoted to research? Rhetorically (and related to my first point), how come so many people are authories on magic prices when they are at a complete loss as to the value of other things?

Third, there are many determinants of value that are completely overlooked by many who seek great deals. For example, in the book world, condition, edition, presence of a dust jacket, provenance, etc. can greatly affect value. Yet if one looks at the bidding habits of many eBay participants, they don't even consider these factors. We have shelves of great magic books for under $5 in our store that we don't even bother listing. Maybe I should put this stuff on eBay.

I could go on & on, but let me end with an example. Several months ago, someone put a copy of Prof. Hoffmann's "Latest Magic" on eBay. It sold for about $1,200.00! By chance, several weeks prior to the auction, I offered 2 copies of this book (1st Editions) in my catalog & on the Internet for $130 & $160 (price difference based on condition). I.e., anyone could have spent 30 seconds checking the web or giving me a call & just bought the book. My copies went unsold until the auction. At the conclusion of the auction, I was immediately contacted by someone who purchased the $160 copy (I later learned he had a reputation for castigating dealers for profiteering while selling on eBay for very high reserves, but that's another story). I offered my second copy to the underbidder, who was amazed that I didn't profiteer myself after the auction & who has since become a customer. In the week following the auction, about 12 people contacted me to buy my copies (which were sold). Since the auction, I've seen 2 copies offered by dealers, 1 for $250, the other for $600. I'm sure someone could find this book for under $50, if they put in the time & effort, but is it worth it? And now, what is the value of the book?

Best,
Michael

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[Jim Riser]

Originally posted by Michael Canick:
Greetings:
As a dealer in magic books, not to mention the author of "A Price Guide to Magic Books," I wanted to address a few points that I think have been overlooked in this discussion, plus offer an example that I think will astound you.

First, there's the issue of time & its value. <snip>

I agree wholeheartedly with Michael on the issue of time. This is also true for things wanted other than magic books or old Tenyo items. If I see something on ebay or elsewhere for sale by a dealer that I need to manufacture a magic item, I will buy it - regardless of price! This may at first thought seem foolish. No so when you figure the extremely high cost of physically searching for the item required. I could drive all around the country looking for the same item and never find it or find it possibly for a few dollars less. A quick calculation of the cost of gas, food, motels, lost manufacturing time, etc. shows what a bargain the item really is. And often the items go for a very reasonable price.

I really do not resent giving people such as Michael their "markup". They have earned it by locating the item for me and saving me the expenses associated with finding the item. Books can be like a rare piece of machinery. The machinery or book might be needed to earn a living and it can pay for itself while it appreciates in value. If it does not appreciate in value, at least it has earned its keep. On books, a buyer needs to decide how "wanted" or "needed" the item is. This can be very personal. There is always the enjoyment factor to be considered as well. You can be assured that if the dealers' prices were too high on a regular basis, the dealer would be a collector rather than a book seller.

Jim, sometimes book buyer
;)

[Pete McCabe]

It is true that there is a "generally accepted value" for most things you might find on eBay. And it's usually very closely related to what people are willing to pay.

But then, sometimes the market changes and what people are willing to pay can increase (or decrease) very quickly. Usually the "generally accepted value" takes a while to catch up.

I remember about 25 years ago, there was an auction of animation cels and Steven Spielberg shocked the world by spending, I seem to recall, 68,000 for an original cell showing the evil princess from Snow White. This was several times larger than the previous record for an animation cel.

Almost overnight the price of all manner of animation cells tripled. Despite an incredible increase in the number of cells (and related things like "limited edition" (i.e. non-production) cels of cartoon characters) on the market, prices never came back down.

It's as though it suddenly became cool to own animation art. Nothing will explode the price of a collectible than to suddenly become cool.

EBay adds a new wrinkle to the equation. In an auction, you aren't just buying something, you are winning the game. Frequently it seems like the game you're winning is who can overspend the most. But the market doesn't care why you are spending what you are spending.

My question is; will a reprint of Card Craft lower the value of a first edition (since people who want the book can get it for retail)? Or will it raise it, since the book will become better known, thus increasing the number of people who may want to own a collectible first edition?

[Guest]

Greetings:
First, thanks to Jim Riser for understanding the time issue & expounding on it.

Re. Pete McCabe's response, I tend to disagree, but I won't get into it again. Regarding Pete's question about reprints of magic books, though, I'd like to offer a few thoughts. I believe that the factors affecting magic book values are different in some ways than those affecting other books. Many magicians just want the material (or so they say). When a magic book is reprinted, especially contemporary ones, it almost always drives down the value of the first edition. Consider Carneycopia, Strong Magic or Magic & Showmanship (Nelms). All 3 of these first came out relatively recently. All 3 are great books that have generated a lot of demand. When they went out of print, all 3 were selling for as high as $200 on eBay & through dealers. All 3 have recently been reprinted & offered at their original price. The first editions of these books are worth, perhaps, a small premium, but nothing approaching their high prices noted above. However, Strong Magic has just gone out of print again & demand is still strong. Expect the price for any edition of this book to rise unless the book is reprinted again.

Consider also Hilliard's "Greater Magic." Original copies were selling for $150-$550 in the early 1990's. When Richard Kaufman reprinted the book (in the mid 1990's, I believe), not only did he print the book at a far greater quality than the original edition, but he included some value-added content material. I believe he sold the book for $60. To many, his version was superior to the original, not to mention much less costly. Immediately, the price of the originals dropped, generally to less than $100 (except for certain rare variants or first editions w/ dust jackets). Now the Kaufman edition is out of print & prices of all editions (including his) are rising again.

Best,
Michael Canick

[Pete McCabe]

Michael:

Not sure what you disagreed with but if you don't want to rehash it I respect that.

Thanks though for the info about the effect of reprints on first edition prices. I guess it really is just wanting to have the material that is driving the prices up on out-of-print books.

Pete

[CHRIS]

Originally posted by Michael Canick:
Several months ago, someone put a copy of Prof. Hoffmann's "Latest Magic" on eBay. It sold for about $1,200.00! By chance, several weeks prior to the auction, I offered 2 copies of this book (1st Editions) in my catalog & on the Internet for $130 & $160 (price difference based on condition).

And I am still offering Hoffmann's
"Latest Magic"
for $6 as ebook. Talk about price range $6 to $1200. The great thing with ebooks is they are always in the most excellent condition ;)

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Richard Kaufman]

Yeah, but when you guy an ebook you're buying "vapor." No paper, no binding, in fact, no book! Just information. For some that's enough.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Yeah, but when you guy an ebook you're buying "vapor." No paper, no binding, in fact, no book! Just information. For some that's enough.

I'd be interested to see a poll regarding ebooks to glean what current opinion actualy is.

[Richard Kaufman]

Consider it done!

[Guest]

Graham:

Late last year, Matthew Field posited this poll which yielded about 70 responses.

Link to Ebooks: Love / Hate Poll

--Randy Campbell

[Guest]

Originally posted by Randy Campbell:
Graham:

Late last year, Matthew Field posited this poll which yielded about 70 responses.

[b] Link to Ebooks: Love / Hate Poll

--Randy Campbell[/b]

Thanks for that Randy. I'd forgotten about that. The overwhelming result in favour of traditional books didn't surprise me.

I purchased the Card College ebook from Chris and can't deny the painstaking work that he has done to produce said item. However, I never use it, as it merely extended the time which I spend in front of some form of computer screen each day. Besides, I never have to recharge a book when I'm out! I also find it somewhat demeaning to the author to see their work consigned to an electronic file purchased for a few bucks. Just my personal preference.

[CHRIS]

Originally posted by Graham Nichols:
I also find it somewhat demeaning to the author to see their work consigned to an electronic file purchased for a few bucks. Just my personal preference.

How demeaning do you find it for a poor student (as I once was one myself) not being able to pay the prices asked at ebay or other places, for old and out of print books?

I think it much better to have a $6 ebook available for anyone who wants to study its contents, than to have the book confined to a few rich collectors of whom most don't even read their books or use its contents for study.

Chris Wasshuber
preserving magic one book at a time.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Chris Wasshuber:
How demeaning do you find it for a poor student (as I once was one myself) not being able to pay the prices asked at ebay or other places, for old and out of print books?

Awww Chris you're going for the sympathy vote now. You'll be posting pictures of kittens next! :D

The number of affordable magic books available to students of meager means is huge compared with the sector of highly-priced collector's items. More magic than anyone can possibly handle in a lifetime.

I understand that there are many users of ebooks out there who enjoy the format. It's just not for me that's all.