magician as an actor

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Tom Stone
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 4:22 am

Jack Shalom wrote:That's why we want trained actors. Unfortunately there are magicians who think they are above such training. It seems like you are deliberately trying to misunderstand.

Of course, magicians think they don't need such training, since you, Brad, Robert-Houdin, and countless others are saying that magicians are actors already from scratch, and that acting is indistinguishable from merely pretending.
Why would any magician be interested in the vast literature and body of knowledge relating to acting, if you tell them that all that is identical to what they already do? If you say that a magician is an actor, you are saying that we never need to step outside our own discipline in order to evolve. You are essentially saying that the answer to the question "How do I make my character more engaging?" is to buy two more Penguin lectures and one SansMind gaff.

We are not actors! Acting is a whole different discipline. If the idea of doing what Pop Haydn do attract you - i.e. to combine magic with an engaging character, studying more magic will be of little help. Not even the deep study of Slydini and Ramsay will help much. You need to step outside the discipline of magic, walk over to the discipline of acting and knock on their door. Then spend a fair amount of time there - preferably studying something that doesn't ignore physical theater, preferably adding a few classes in improvisational theater... and then you can return with a new skillset that no amount of magic study could have given you, having obtained all tools necessary to create an engaging character, having obtained the ability to create a multidisciplinarity performance of acting and magic... but why would anyone go through all that work if it is redundant and we already are as much actors as we need to be?

That is if the idea of performing magic with a strong and engaging character attracts you. It does little for the actual magic though. The world's most engaging presentation of Ken Brooke's Multiplying Bottle Routine will still be Ken Brooke's Multiplying Bottle Routine. To make the actual magic stronger and more dramatic, the discipline of acting is of little help. For that, we need to venture into the unexplored and uncharted areas of our own discipline.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 5:25 am

I should probably add that I've personally found Clowning techniques to be far more applicable in magic than Acting. Even though they usually are used for comedy, they can just as easily be used for serious scenes.
And before anyone claim that clowing is identical to acting - no, that is not the case. You can study acting a whole life without ever coming across even the most basic principles covered during the first day of a clowning workshop. Yes, Viola Spolin's work do overlap a bit, but that is about it. For most magicians, a week's workshop with Avner the Eccentric will provide more useful tools than a full year of acting classes.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jack Shalom » March 9th, 2022, 8:10 am

Why would any magician be interested in the vast literature and body of knowledge relating to acting, if you tell them that all that is identical to what they already do?


This is a very strange line of argument, Tom.

By this line of reasoning then why would magicians want to study magic since they are already magicians? Why would a musician want to study music since they are already musicians? Why would a dancer want to study dance since...?

It's precisely because they want to be best at what they do that they study their disciplines as deeply as possible.

"You are essentially saying that the answer to the question "How do I make my character more engaging?" is to buy two more Penguin lectures and one SansMind gaff."

???? There is obviously a communication gap if that's what you think I am saying, when it is precisely the opposite I am saying. I'll leave it there.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 10:04 am

Jack Shalom wrote:
Why would any magician be interested in the vast literature and body of knowledge relating to acting, if you tell them that all that is identical to what they already do?


This is a very strange line of argument, Tom.

By this line of reasoning then why would magicians want to study magic since they are already magicians? Why would a musician want to study music since they are already musicians? Why would a dancer want to study dance since...?


Now you are the one with the strange arguments.
People who get interested in a discipline study that discipline. A musician want to study music because they are musicians. If the musician suddenly develop an additional interest in tapdancing, the natural thing would be to venture over to the field of tapdancing and obtain that skillset. But if all the musician's colleagues say "Oh, you are already a tapdancer! That skill is already a part of being a musician. All you have to do is to pretend and you'll have all the knowledge you need!"... then what would then be the impetus to go outside one's own field? You'd stay within your own furrow, occasionally finding the rare random reference to tapdancing in some old music hall sheet music, ending up thinking that is all the field of tapdancing consist of.

When I look around the world of magic, in the state it is in today, I see a dark and vast abyss when it comes to knowledge about our sibling arts. I see that a huge number of my peers have no idea what acting is, or what acting techniques consist of - or even that there exist such things as acting techniques. I see a huge gaping hole in our general knowledge about the performing arts. With depressing few exceptions, I see no actors at all in our fold.

Judging from what you are writing, your eyes are not seeing what my eyes see. Evidently, when you look at the world of magic, in its current state, you see an abundance of full-fledged actors among our peers, all so well versed and well read in acting techniques that it, to you, make sense to make the term "magician" equivalent to "actor". I can not for my life understand what you base that belief on; that a magician is an actor.

It's precisely because they want to be best at what they do that they study their disciplines as deeply as possible.


Indeed. So when a magician who believe in your claim, that magic and acting are identical, go to https://www.conjuringarchive.com to research, learn more, and deepen their knowledge, they will find that not much have been written about acting, ending up thinking that is all there is.

"You are essentially saying that the answer to the question "How do I make my character more engaging?" is to buy two more Penguin lectures and one SansMind gaff."

???? There is obviously a communication gap if that's what you think I am saying, when it is precisely the opposite I am saying. I'll leave it there.


I can't fathom what that communication gap would consist of. It is pretty clear that you look at all our contemporary peers and see an abundance of actors and that what they currently are doing is indistinguishable from acting. I.e. "Don't change, keep on doing what you're doing!"

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » March 9th, 2022, 10:45 am

Jack Shalom wrote:
because they don't think it applies to them.


That is because it doesn't! In fact I believe it is detrimental. I have seen talented professional actors doing magic and the results are mediocre. They should stick to acting and let magicians stick to magic. Serious study of acting techniques is a DISADVANTAGE when performing magic. Natural acting is the best type. If you want to be a good magician avoid studying serious acting like the plague. It will retard your progress rather than enhancing it.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Bill Mullins » March 9th, 2022, 10:49 am

Richard -- so you've studied acting-with-a-capital-A. Did it make you a better magician?

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 9th, 2022, 11:44 am

No. "Acting" is not applicable to most magic. Bizarre Magick is an example of an area in which it is an absolute necessity, but generally no.
What would be valuable to magicians are certain specific exercises I learned. But the most basic of these is what Dr. Elliott told Dai Vernon: "Be natural." We spent an enormous amount of time on this at the Adler Conservatory, and my teacher for this was Pearl Pearson, Adler's niece. They stated it differently, with a much more helpful phrase: being private in public.
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jack Shalom » March 9th, 2022, 12:00 pm

I can't fathom what that communication gap would consist of. It is pretty clear that you look at all our contemporary peers and see an abundance of actors and that what they currently are doing is indistinguishable from acting. I.e. "Don't change, keep on doing what you're doing!"


The communication gap is that you put words in my mouth that are not there at all, that are in fact the precise opposite of what I have said, so I conclude communication gap.

Why would I say to someone who is an actor "keep on doing what you're doing" if they're doing it poorly??? I look at magicians and see poor actors. Because they are actors I say do your homework and learn MORE about acting so you can do it well. I don't ask them to learn calculus, because they are not mathematicians. I ask them to learn how to act well because they are actors. I can't make it anymore plain that.

Instead, most magicians say, nah, acting that has no application to me, because I'm not an actor.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 12:16 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:I look at magicians and see poor actors. Because they are actors I say do your homework and learn MORE about acting so you can do it well. I don't ask them to learn calculus, because they are not mathematicians. I ask them to learn how to act well because they are actors. I can't make it anymore plain that.

If magicians really were actors, then wouldn't we have litterature about it by now? Also, there are plenty of great magic acts around, despite that the performers of the same acts are poor actors, which seems to be a bit paradoxical. We rarely find theatre great when the actors are poor.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 12:26 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:No. "Acting" is not applicable to most magic. Bizarre Magick is an example of an area in which it is an absolute necessity, but generally no.
What would be valuable to magicians are certain specific exercises I learned. But the most basic of these is what Dr. Elliott told Dai Vernon: "Be natural." We spent an enormous amount of time on this at the Adler Conservatory, and my teacher for this was Pearl Pearson, Adler's niece. They stated it differently, with a much more helpful phrase: being private in public.

Oh yes, I recall having read that! You studied at the Stella Adler Conservatory of Acting! I've liked most of what I've read about her work and methods, and think that if a magician decides to learn more about acting, it wouldn't be a bad choice to pick her system (and stay well away from Strasberg).

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 1:06 pm

Tarotist wrote:
Jack Shalom wrote:
because they don't think it applies to them.


That is because it doesn't! In fact I believe it is detrimental. I have seen talented professional actors doing magic and the results are mediocre. They should stick to acting and let magicians stick to magic. Serious study of acting techniques is a DISADVANTAGE when performing magic.

I wouldn't go quite that far. But yes, performing magic as if it is acting and theater is highly detrimental to the magic. The pacing, dynamics, foundations, breathing, skillsets, dramatics... everything is vastly different. Adding acting to magic often drown the magic.
It is however possible to find a multidisciplinary approach where the two arts are performed in tandem, parallell to each other. Where you structure it so that there's pauses in the magic for the acting, and pauses in the acting for the magic. Not easy, but possible. Pop Haydn is good at it.
There are also a few single techniques and exercises from acting that can be modified, adapted and applied. But that is about it.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 9th, 2022, 1:50 pm

Feedback from a performance may be "I don't believe you".
That could be not believing the supposedly mundane actions were in fact mundane, the props were innocent of trickery or...
Not believing the performer was the source of the claimed magic. "nice gestures but those are big and strange looking cabinets"
Same problem to a director - "I don't believe you". The character or the set up for the magic.

Imagine being asked "What do you do to account for the magic?" or "What do you want the audience to believe accounts for the magic?"

In the shallow end of the pool: Is that wand loaded?

In the design process:
What do you have-to-do to make the magic happen? (not the backstage stuff - this is about what they watch you do)
What would happen if someone opened up that envelope before you asked them to - what would they see?

Long after the script writing and production design comes figuring out all the things you must do to convey the effects to your audience to get the response you are seeking.
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 7:01 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:I look at magicians and see poor actors.

If we look at bad magicians and see poor actors, and we look at great magicians and see poor actors... at the same time as we see really good actors who are merely average as magicians... then, evidently, there's no relation between acting and magic, since no interaction can be traced. Isn't it then clear as day that it is two different fields?

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 7:19 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Feedback from a performance may be "I don't believe you".
That could be not believing the supposedly mundane actions were in fact mundane, the props were innocent of trickery or...
Not believing the performer was the source of the claimed magic. "nice gestures but those are big and strange looking cabinets"
Same problem to a director - "I don't believe you". The character or the set up for the magic.

Imagine being asked "What do you do to account for the magic?" or "What do you want the audience to believe accounts for the magic?"

In the shallow end of the pool: Is that wand loaded?

In the design process:
What do you have-to-do to make the magic happen? (not the backstage stuff - this is about what they watch you do)
What would happen if someone opened up that envelope before you asked them to - what would they see?

Long after the script writing and production design comes figuring out all the things you must do to convey the effects to your audience to get the response you are seeking.

It is good questions. But usually, those questions are asked and answered during the creation phase, and are built into the plot, narrative and choreography of the piece. Then what the audience believe accounts for the magic is irrelevant and unimportant.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 9th, 2022, 8:57 pm

Strasberg taught the method he learned from Stanislavsky's early life. Adler taught the method she learned learned from Stanislavsky later in his life, when his ideas had more fully developed.
Strasberg's version of Stanislovsky's early technique requires the actor to use his own experiences and emotions as fodder. This creates psychological havoc for many actors, and also makes it difficult to repeat a piece with the same quality night after night, or take after take.
Stanislovsky realized the shortcomings of his technique, and changed it as he grew older.
Adler's version of Stanislovsky's later technique requires the actor to use his imagination to create scenarios which trigger emotion. This avoids digging into one's own mess of a life. By using the actor's imagination, there is a wide choice of things which can be conjured to create the same result night after night, or take after take. The things you conjure do not include real-life events like the death or your father or a favorite pet, or having been humiliated in the past in some way.
Brando was Adler's prize student, and I can think of no better exemplar of her work in practice.
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 9th, 2022, 10:43 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Adler's version of Stanislovsky's later technique requires the actor to use his imagination to create scenarios which trigger emotion. This avoids digging into one's own mess of a life. By using the actor's imagination, there is a wide choice of things which can be conjured to create the same result night after night, or take after take.

That sounds a lot more pragmatic and useful to a magician who want to add acting to their skillsets. The Strasberg stuff sounds more like semi-religious, pseudoscientific Freudian nonsense.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » March 9th, 2022, 10:50 pm

Despite my great huffing and puffing about the inadequacies of acting as applied to magic I actually own a terrific book on the subject which has been of great help to me. I read and reread it frequently. It is called aptly "The Actor" by Eve Brandstein. Not that it tells you anything about the techniques of acting (thank goodness) but around 75 to 80 percent of the contents are just as useful to a magician as they would be to an actor. The sub title will give you a clue to the contents. It is " A practical guide to a professional career". It is a sort of self help book for the budding actor and the ups and downs of showbusiness generally. Not a book for the amateur magician but more for a starving or not so starving professional. I thoroughly recommend it.

https://www.amazon.com/Actor-Eve-Brands ... 1556110030

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Q. Kumber » March 11th, 2022, 12:59 am

Actors interact with each other, totally ignoring the audience. Magicians perform to and (usually) interact directly with an audience. It's not so much acting that magicians should study but basic stagecraft.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Paco Nagata » March 11th, 2022, 4:34 pm

When magicians interact with the audience they try to make believe things that are not true, and that requires acting (as if they were...).

It's true that, theoretically, magicians are not actors (and obviously!), but, in practise, they are actors (they don't really do magic).

I think it's a matter of point of view (magician/audience)

Maybe that was the idea of that "some ancient french dude" Tom Stone was talking about, and my personal democratic opinion.
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 11th, 2022, 6:05 pm

Paco Nagata wrote:It's true that, theoretically, magicians are not actors (and obviously!), but, in practise, they are actors (they don't really do magic).

"In practice" would mean the application of acting skills, acting technique, and acting knowledge. If you look around among our peers, with few exceptions, no one put it in practice.
I asked my girlfriend who studied acting for several years, and she said that she have never had use for any of that in her work as a magician. It is two different disciplines.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Brad Henderson » March 11th, 2022, 6:33 pm

I guess she never did a trick which seemed to go wrong? Never opened a hand and was surprised to see the ball was still there? Or a trick where the audience sees something she isn’t supposed to be seeing? Or never uttered a magic word or cast a shadow to cause an object to vanish or change? Or never appeared to make an efffort to reveal a chosen card that she actually knew the identity of all along?

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 11th, 2022, 7:00 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
Paco Nagata wrote:It's true that, theoretically, magicians are not actors (and obviously!), but, in practise, they are actors (they don't really do magic).

"In practice" would mean the application of acting skills, acting technique, and acting knowledge. If you look around among our peers, with few exceptions, no one put it in practice.

Admittedly most in magic don't hire directors. We rarely hear others trying lines in different ways to get the most out of each line - even without a director telling them to.

Of the folks who don't work for audiences - understandably few would take the trouble to develop character mannerisms, or build upon what works to refine their performances. But surely folks do try to get the most magic from their tricks and many learn to guide the audience into responding to that magic. Be that casual magic at the office water cooler or entertainment at the dinner table before coffee is served; presentation matters.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 11th, 2022, 8:05 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:I guess she never did a trick which seemed to go wrong? Never opened a hand and was surprised to see the ball was still there? Or a trick where the audience sees something she isn’t supposed to be seeing? Or never uttered a magic word or cast a shadow to cause an object to vanish or change? Or never appeared to make an efffort to reveal a chosen card that she actually knew the identity of all along?


Sorry, Brad, but none of these require more than simple reactions, not the abilities of a trained actor.
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » March 11th, 2022, 10:53 pm

A lot of acting goes on in magic but not TRAINED acting! I keep saying this but nobody is taking the slightest bit of notice of me. Very well. You are all doomed to a whirlwind of confusion and faulty thinking. What makes this thread dafter than ever is that Robert Houdin wasn't talking about acting in the first place!

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Reaction Formation for Magicians ... in action

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 12th, 2022, 12:22 am

Let's pretend to do some rational analysis of our institutional thinking. Possible realities include;
1) You know and use real magic, and have your workings set up so you can repeat your efforts in front of audiences so they work the same each time and...

2) You have a character which follows his scripted part from the start to end as a performance piece.

3), 4) .... Inquiring minds want to know. Or what?

Jean Eugene Robert-Houdin's book and that other Lewis guy's translation seem to have created some pretty strong misdirection for magicians these days. The pen is mightier than the wand. ;)
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Brad Henderson » March 12th, 2022, 2:36 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:I guess she never did a trick which seemed to go wrong? Never opened a hand and was surprised to see the ball was still there? Or a trick where the audience sees something she isn’t supposed to be seeing? Or never uttered a magic word or cast a shadow to cause an object to vanish or change? Or never appeared to make an efffort to reveal a chosen card that she actually knew the identity of all along?


Sorry, Brad, but none of these require more than simple reactions, not the abilities of a trained actor.


Not if your goal is to do these things convincingly.

Perhaps Richard you might wish to posit an authoritative definition of acting. Because all these things I described are acting. Whether or not one needs training has never been the point. How many magicians exist who have never been properly trained after all?

Just as the person who does three self working card tricks is a magician, so is the magician who portrays a character who conveys to their audience that they can accomplish impossible things. Sure, some do this better than others and I contend this better isn’t because of their conjuring craft but because of their acting ability - trained or otherwise.

And yes, most magicians acting chops are superficial and narrow, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t acting unless we agree that the person who only ever performs their act and nothing else isn’t a magician. They are, of course.

While there exist branches of magic where acting is not required - authentic gambling demonstrations and pure manipulation, for example - I would offer that these are not precisely magic but demonstrations of juggling using the tools associated with magicians.

Further I would say that both of these devoid of acting are at best tedious demonstrations of skill.

All magicians are actors - even if untrained or unskilled. Only Jugglers need not be.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Brad Jeffers » March 12th, 2022, 2:39 am

When Ricky Jay stepped on stage to perform his one man show, was he an actor playing the part of a magician?
He was after all an actor as well as a magician.
Tom Stone wrote:It's two different disciplines.
I see.

Considering the fact that he was one of the greats in magic, I suppose one might facetiously say of Ricky Jay, that in his movie roles, he was a magician playing the part of an actor.

Another great magician who was also an actor was Channing Pollock.

In his 1966 role as Fletcher Cameron in an episode of the tv series Daniel Boone, Pollock was a magician, who was an actor, who was playing the part of a magician.

It can get confusing!

Let's not even bring up Bill Bixby. ;)

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 12th, 2022, 3:41 am

Brad Henderson wrote:I guess she never did a trick which seemed to go wrong? Never opened a hand and was surprised to see the ball was still there? Or a trick where the audience sees something she isn’t supposed to be seeing? Or never uttered a magic word or cast a shadow to cause an object to vanish or change? Or never appeared to make an efffort to reveal a chosen card that she actually knew the identity of all along?

You'd have to ask her. But I don't find anything that require an actor's training here. None of the lessons covered things like that.

If we really need to express our art in the terms of another dramatic art, we are far closer to both pantomime & clowning than acting. There's a lot of body isolation in a magician's work, and almost none in an actor's work. A lot rely on exact choreographies that occur, in sync, on several levels - that doesn't happen in acting. The way we create and maintain rapport is very similar to clowning, while acting have nothing that is even remotely similar. The way we create our performance pieces are worlds apart. The actual performance pieces are unique to us, there doesn't exist anything like it anywhere else - but if we're forced to find a relationship, they are most closely related to clowning in nature, then pantomime, and then, far away; acting.

Since almost 5 years back, I work with an ensemble of magicians here in Stockholm. One of my partners is an actor - he started out as a magician: won competitions and did TV already as a pre-teen. Then he found acting, left magic completely and began study acting. Then started a theater company that got quite a bit of attention for their production of works by Yukio Mishima, Pier Paolo Pasolini, Luigi Pirandello, August Strindberg, Michail Bulgakov... did that for around 15-20 years, until he by chance met a magician and tagged along to a magic gig, whereupon he transitioned back to our field again. In the ensemble, he's the closest thing we have to a director. We mainly rely on magician's techniques, clowning techniques, and occasionally, small amounts of acting; mainly in his own solopieces - but the latter isn't easy, it is a struggle and a fight every time. While the clowning techniques almost are compatible and slides into place with a small amount of prodding, poking and pummelling... the same can not be said of the acting techniques; they fight you at every turn, every time it is like fitting a square peg into a round hole. When the amount of acting increases, the internal timing in the piece changes and it cease to be deceptive. And when we try to fix the deceptiveness by changing the moment or the gaze, the reply is "I can't do that. This is a system - I can't just add things". After having worked his way through the system, he either find a way to fit in what have to be done, or he have to give up the acting and rely on other techniques. It is different disciplines and they are rarely compatible.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 12th, 2022, 3:58 am

Brad Jeffers wrote:Considering the fact that he was one of the greats in magic, I suppose one might facetiously say of Ricky Jay, that in his movie roles, he was a magician playing the part of an actor.

One might say that. Facetiously.
You need to be somewhat of a renaissance person to be a good magician. We have many polymaths in our fold. It is nothing strange to be proficient in more than one discipline, and it isn't necessary to pretend to be one while doing the other. Ricky Jay, in his movie roles, was an actor playing the part of an actor.
It is also not uncommon for the polymaths among us to do multidisciplinary performances. Like adding a juggling routine somewhere in the act. But the multidisciplinary rarely becomes transdisciplinary like in some of Yann Frisch's work.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » March 12th, 2022, 4:13 am

Brad Henderson wrote:Perhaps Richard you might wish to posit an authoritative definition of acting. Because all these things I described are acting. Whether or not one needs training has never been the point. How many magicians exist who have never been properly trained after all?

Acting is a skill, a discipline, a system. There are actors around who have never had any schooling or formal training. People who, on their own, have found ways to become competent in acting. None of those are people who are merely pretending stuff, even they follow a system and are applying a skill.
None of the examples that you descibed is acting. No actor, trained or unschooled, ever deal with things like that.
If it duplicates what an actor do, you can call it acting. If it isn't a part of what an actor do, it isn't acting.

Only Jugglers need not be.

By that I guess you mean that there are no dramatic techniques in Juggling? Have you even seen contemporary Juggling?

Brad, you crap on magic, you crap on acting, you crap on juggling... is there any art at all that you don't hate?

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » March 12th, 2022, 8:46 am

It is probably true that jugglers NEED not be actors but I think a tiny few of them are. This one is my favourite! He acts as if he is fed up being a juggler! One hell of an actor in fact!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwcb0n3uJcc

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 12th, 2022, 11:00 am

Ricky Jay was never an actor until David Mamet decided he had a good face for film. Ricky was extremely limited in his acting ability, and he was a great magician, but a mediocre actor, and he's never acting when he's performing magic. He's reciting patter in a coy manner and doing sleight of hand. That is not acting.
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Bill Mullins » March 12th, 2022, 11:10 am

These techniques of a "trained actor" are modern. Stanislavsky's "System" dates to the early 20th century, and Strasberg and Adler and "the Method" all follow that.
Does that mean that the people who performed plays and early movies before then were not "actors"? Was Edwin Booth not an actor?
When Robert-Houdin made his statement, he obviously wasn't talking about "actors" in the same way that Richard and Tom are speaking here, because the techniques that R&T say are necessary to be an actor didn't exist back then.
In simplest terms, an actor is a person who acts. You can act at a super-high Marlon Brando level, or you can act at a junior high school play level. But if you are acting, then you are an actor. And if you are trying to convey to an audience that you have the ability to make one ring pass through another, or a ball to materialize under a cup, you are acting. Maybe a "trained actor" has skills that allow him to convey that more convincingly than even a Chavez graduate. But David Blaine demonstrating his ability to levitate is acting no less than Dustin Hoffman in Death of a Salesman, and in the context of that performance, he is an actor.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Bill Mullins » March 12th, 2022, 11:15 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Ricky Jay [is] never acting when he's performing magic.


I contend that Ricky is acting here.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby JHostler » March 12th, 2022, 11:19 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Ricky Jay [is] never acting when he's performing magic.


I contend that Ricky is acting here.


Of course - though that painful bit of film is anything but "correctly structured."
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 12th, 2022, 11:53 am

Bill Mullins wrote:These techniques of a "trained actor" are modern. Stanislavsky's "System" dates to the early 20th century, and Strasberg and Adler and "the Method" all follow that.
Does that mean that the people who performed plays and early movies before then were not "actors"? Was Edwin Booth not an actor?
When Robert-Houdin made his statement, he obviously wasn't talking about "actors" in the same way that Richard and Tom are speaking here, because the techniques that R&T say are necessary to be an actor didn't exist back then.
In simplest terms, an actor is a person who acts. You can act at a super-high Marlon Brando level, or you can act at a junior high school play level. But if you are acting, then you are an actor. And if you are trying to convey to an audience that you have the ability to make one ring pass through another, or a ball to materialize under a cup, you are acting. Maybe a "trained actor" has skills that allow him to convey that more convincingly than even a Chavez graduate. But David Blaine demonstrating his ability to levitate is acting no less than Dustin Hoffman in Death of a Salesman, and in the context of that performance, he is an actor.


This is nonsense, Bill. Just because a bunch of kids are standing onstage in high school doing a play does not make any of them actors. ONE of them might be an actor, but the rest are just kids spewing memorized lines. Just because you are reciting a script does not mean you are acting.
Regarding acting techniques, there have been many for centuries passed down through oral or teacher student tradition. Stanislovsky's techniques coincide timewise with Dr. Elliott's comment to Vernon: "be natural."
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Brad Henderson » March 12th, 2022, 12:08 pm

By that logic Richard is the guy who does magic poorly not a magician?

It seems to me this argument is less about method and more about ego - the conspiracy of the professional against the laity.

There are countless people staring in tv shows and movies who have never been trained. Who are pretty faces who hit their marks and recite their lines.

Just as the person who does a self working card trick is a magician, those people are actors. They aren’t portraying themselves. They are portraying characters. The magician by definition portrays someone who has the ability to transcend the laws of nature. They are acting. And just as actors have choreography we do too. And just as some actors go through the motions and say the right words, many magicians never do more than moves and patter.

Because most magicians are bad magicians doesn’t make them not magicians. Because most magicians are bad actors doesn’t make them not actors.

Still waiting for some authoritative definition of acting from the team here. ‘That’s not acting’ is hardly helpful.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Brad Henderson » March 12th, 2022, 12:10 pm

Tom. You will forgive me when I say that one guy you know that no one has ever heard of is hardly the authority I’m going to rely on in this discussion.

And to your point - not all actors are magicians. But all magicians (except those who offer mere demonstrations of skill) are actors. They may not be skilled actors. They may not be aware they are acting. But unless they are actually transcending they laws of nature - they are putting on an act. They are acting.

And yes. I hate everything. Everything except for you.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Bill Mullins » March 12th, 2022, 3:16 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote: Just because a bunch of kids are standing onstage in high school doing a play does not make any of them actors. ONE of them might be an actor, but the rest are just kids spewing memorized lines. Just because you are reciting a script does not mean you are acting.


So what, then, is an actor? What is acting?

I'd agree with something like "acting is the pretending to be or do something one is not or cannot do, in performance for the benefit of an audience". And I'd bet that Brad wouldn't disagree too strongly with that. And further, every magic performance has (or should have, at least) some of this involved in it. And this definition of "acting/actor" is completely consistent with what I contend Robert-Houdin was talking about.

OTOH, what you and Tom are talking about seems to have more -- but I can't figure out what it is.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 12th, 2022, 4:30 pm

Pretending is not acting.
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