magician as an actor

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DennisLisi
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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 10th, 2022, 11:03 am

Tom Stone wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:I think the problem in this discussion derives from a lot of people's idea that "acting" is a mysterious thing that they can't personally comprehend (or master).

I would say the opposite.
Acting isn't very mysterious at all. It is craft for which there are training and educations. It is a known and established profession that make use of certain skills. That's all.

The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of people here doesn't want to recognize acting as a legitimate profession, and think of it as merely pretending on the same level as a child.
Then there are others who for unknown reasons have elevated acting to something more than what it is, while having weird feelings of inferiority regarding our own field, and who desperately want to aspire to this imaginary 'greatness' they think acting have, by pretending there's no differences at all between our fields.



My problem with that argument (and your Venn diagram) is that Acting is inclusive of all types of theatrical performance (including mime, and even song). It is a basic concept. It is not defined as a certain skill, but simply the art of behaving before an audience for the purpose of entertainment.

You may define Magic as "the skillful demonstration of illusions" but I don't think you can (or should) exclude the development of The Persona. And that is what makes it "acting".

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » April 10th, 2022, 11:48 am

DennisLisi wrote:
My problem with that argument (and your Venn diagram) is that Acting is inclusive of all types of theatrical performance (including mime, and even song). It is a basic concept. It is not defined as a certain skill, but simply the art of behaving before an audience for the purpose of entertainment.

If you mean that the general public often have a more lax definition of words than what specialists within various fields have, then yes, that might be the case... but we're not the general public, we're specialists. If you were a painter, you'd probably insist that there's a huge difference between Carmine, Tawny and Maroon - you wouldn't go "Since the general public call them all 'red', I will henceforth - in my professional life as a painter - insist that these three colors are identical in shade, hue & saturation, and are indistinguishable from each other."

I guess no one would think twice if you said it to some random person on the street, but if you are sitting backstage at a theatre, or talking with artists and performers on a forum for artists and performers, you can't say that you are an actor and expect your artist peers to not interpret it as a statement about your craft, training and profession. Words do mean things.
The actors I meet and hang out with would definitely look at me oddly, if I told them their profession wasn't a skill but just a basic concept. I don't quite understand why the actors you hang out with doesn't look equally oddly at you.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 10th, 2022, 12:20 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:
My problem with that argument (and your Venn diagram) is that Acting is inclusive of all types of theatrical performance (including mime, and even song). It is a basic concept. It is not defined as a certain skill, but simply the art of behaving before an audience for the purpose of entertainment.

If you mean that the general public often have a more lax definition of words than what specialists within various fields have, then yes, that might be the case... but we're not the general public, we're specialists. If you were a painter, you'd probably insist that there's a huge difference between Carmine, Tawny and Maroon - you wouldn't go "Since the general public call them all 'red', I will henceforth - in my professional life as a painter - insist that these three colors are identical in shade, hue & saturation, and are indistinguishable from each other."

I guess no one would think twice if you said it to some random person on the street, but if you are sitting backstage at a theatre, or talking with artists and performers on a forum for artists and performers, you can't say that you are an actor and expect your artist peers to not interpret it as a statement about your craft, training and profession. Words do mean things.
The actors I meet and hang out with would definitely look at me oddly, if I told them their profession wasn't a skill but just a basic concept. I don't quite understand why the actors you hang out with doesn't look equally oddly at you.


That is a very good point. Unfortunately, it is based in the subjective opinion of those who call themselves "actors". They will define "acting" according to THE IDEAL FORM that they aspire to.

It is ironic, that magicians (such as yourself) seem to define "magic" according to THE BASIC FORM.

The objective truth is that "acting" is the performance of ANYTHING THAT A PERSON CAN POTENTIALLY DO. Which means that the demonstration of ANY SKILL (singing, dancing, fighting, etc.) is within that broad field.

If there is a difference between actors and magicians, it is in their pretentions. Either to CHARM or to DEXTERITY.

Both try to amaze their audience. But some magicians rely more on the mechanical technique. As I said, you can define it that way--but if you do, you are cutting out the human element FROM THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF THEATRE.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tom Stone » April 10th, 2022, 5:10 pm

DennisLisi wrote:That is a very good point. Unfortunately, it is based in the subjective opinion of those who call themselves "actors". They will define "acting" according to THE IDEAL FORM that they aspire to.

It is ironic, that magicians (such as yourself) seem to define "magic" according to THE BASIC FORM.

The objective truth is that "acting" is the performance of ANYTHING THAT A PERSON CAN POTENTIALLY DO. Which means that the demonstration of ANY SKILL (singing, dancing, fighting, etc.) is within that broad field.

Hm... we use words to communicate. The more narrow the task is, the more specificity we put in the words, in order to communicate in a way that the listener can assimilate and make use of.

So here, on a forum for artists and performers, what would the purpose be to remove all specificity of our terms, and make them so broad, vague and general that they no longer hold any meaning at all?
If "acting" is the performance of ANYTHING THAT A PERSON CAN POTENTIALLY DO. ... how do you do that, exactly?
If one of our peers want to experiement with a combination of magic and acting and ask you for technical advice on how to get the acting part right, do you really think the best help is to shout "DO ANYTHING! ANYTHING YOU POTENTIALLY CAN DO IS WHAT THE ACT NEED" in his ear? To me, it sounds it would be better to say nothing at all, if all you'd allow was words that had been hollowed out.

If you actually directed someone to do "anything you can do!", it is a safe bet that the result wouldn't be a dramatic rendition of anything.
Going from something specific you can do, to something too vague for anyone to do, is neither useful nor practical.

Acting is a technique and a skill. You "flex" your dramatic muscles a certain way, and you get acting as a result.
Clowning is a different technique and skill. You flex your dramatic muscles a different way, and you get clowning as a result.
Magic is also a different skill. Flex the dramatic muscles another way, and magic is the result.
It is of course possible to combine it, but since it isn't transferable, the more you begin to flex on one way, the less you can flex the second way.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 10th, 2022, 7:53 pm

Tom Stone wrote:Hm... we use words to communicate. The more narrow the task is, the more specificity we put in the words, in order to communicate in a way that the listener can assimilate and make use of.

So here, on a forum for artists and performers, what would the purpose be to remove all specificity of our terms, and make them so broad, vague and general that they no longer hold any meaning at all?
If "acting" is the performance of ANYTHING THAT A PERSON CAN POTENTIALLY DO. ... how do you do that, exactly?
If one of our peers want to experiement with a combination of magic and acting and ask you for technical advice on how to get the acting part right, do you really think the best help is to shout "DO ANYTHING! ANYTHING YOU POTENTIALLY CAN DO IS WHAT THE ACT NEED" in his ear? To me, it sounds it would be better to say nothing at all, if all you'd allow was words that had been hollowed out.

If you actually directed someone to do "anything you can do!", it is a safe bet that the result wouldn't be a dramatic rendition of anything.
Going from something specific you can do, to something too vague for anyone to do, is neither useful nor practical.

Acting is a technique and a skill. You "flex" your dramatic muscles a certain way, and you get acting as a result.
Clowning is a different technique and skill. You flex your dramatic muscles a different way, and you get clowning as a result.
Magic is also a different skill. Flex the dramatic muscles another way, and magic is the result.
It is of course possible to combine it, but since it isn't transferable, the more you begin to flex on one way, the less you can flex the second way.


Magic and Acting can involve different skills, but they can (and often do) involve IDENTICAL SKILLS.

A typical actor will learn the material. He will rehearse his lines. Practice in front of a mirror, or in front of friends. Get dressed, and go on stage.

Another actor may prepare for a performance by learning about the character's profession. If he is playing the role of a magician, he will probably study the subject PRECISELY AS YOU DO. He will learn how to cut and restore a rope.

There ARE different techniques, yes. But NONE OF THEM are exclusive to acting. Anyone performing in public may improve their act by using so-called "acting methods".

Acting AT ITS BEST is nothing more than convincing an audience that you are sincere. It doesn't matter how you do it, but it is equally important for both actors and magicians.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 10th, 2022, 8:34 pm

I don't think that performing has to be a "tissue of falsehoods". I believe the less lies you tell when performing the better. Tongue in cheek statements that are obviously false like saying you have "Magic Powder" is fine but outright lies are not a good thing. I do remember a long, long discussion about the matter and you were all ganging up on some poor chap by the name of J. Keyes. I was enjoying the argument but didn't really have a strong opinion one way or the other but since then I have come across learned writers who say it is not a good thing. I also realised on reviewing my own material is that the number of times I tell lies in my work is miniscule. Lots of tongue in cheek silliness but not a single outright lie. No. I don't believe in a tissue of falsehoods, merely a tissue of amusing nonsense.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 11th, 2022, 1:22 pm

DennisLisi wrote:...convincing an audience that you are sincere.
Your "on(stage)" character.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jack Shalom » April 12th, 2022, 5:33 pm

Or as John Wayne allegedly said, Once you can fake sincerity, you got it made.

The traditions of acting go back thousands of years until now. They include acting a character from someone else's script, but also improvisation, clowning, mime, oration, story theater, vaudeville, and so on. Tom's narrow interpretation of acting is a tiny sliver of the tradition. Go to any well thought of acting conservatory and take a look at the syllabus. It covers the bases of pretending to do and be.

And while the Robert-Houdin quotation that most people talk about is ambiguous, there is no ambiguity in the quotation from Secrets of the Conjurers that I put above.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 13th, 2022, 2:22 pm

Everyone in a con knows their part. Acting.

Mark, anyone, would you explain the basic short con? Understanding the how-to of the three card monte seems to get lost the moment the cops come to break up the game. Help?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Jack Shalom » April 13th, 2022, 2:31 pm

Jon, decades ago I wrote an article for Theater Annual magazine about the theatrical aspects of three-card monte. You can read it here:
https://jackshalom.net/2017/09/30/findi ... ard-monte/

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 13th, 2022, 6:27 pm

We British do not use the term "stick" or "mark". How dreadfully American! Neither do we call it "three card monte". It is actually known as "Find the Lady". As for acting ability I hardly think the type of people I have known personally, involved in this wickedness would do very well at playing Hamlet. Furthermore from what I have personally observed the British method of scamming the undeserving public seems to be different from Jack's account. Of course we British are an older and wiser nation so our procedure would naturally be superior. The "Find the Lady" workers WANT people to know it is a scam. They WANT the people watching to be aware it is a scam. The idea is trick some idiot in the crowd who thinks he knows what the scam is.

Oddly enough some years ago I was in London and decided to go to the Magic Circle to watch a Randy Wakeman lecture. It was not held in the clubroom but in some public auditorium somewhere. I was astonished to see in the audience some monte workers I had known for years but hadn't seen for some time. They were not magicians and I had no idea how they got in or even what they were doing there. Possibly looking for some new ideas with cards I imagine although I don't the lecture would have supplied what the were looking for. I did speak to them. They looked weather beaten and rather streetwise as befits their profession. I suspect that they would hardly be invited to the best country homes but I was glad to see them. It was from them that I first learned the different way of bending the cards for the trick/game. They used an S shape, rather than the usual triangular bend, which actually works quite well. I can't say I observed anything "theatrical" about them!

I do the three card monte myself both with trick cards and regular ones. The trick cards I use and have sold literally thousands upon thousands of is the Dutch Looper. However this is the version I do not sell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SJExUhy9YY

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 14th, 2022, 10:20 am

When it comes to playing "Find The Lady" I consider myself rather lucky. I've never lost, because I'm so bad at picking The Money Card in the first stage of the game, that The Operator becomes worried that I won't choose the one he wants. In other words, if I fail to follow the lady, my odds of winning are actually increased.

Good way to avoid being The Sucker.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 16th, 2022, 7:32 pm

I'm astonished. I thought surely someone would sneer at my previous post. Especially the bit about never having lost at "Three-Card Monte".

Well I think it's an interesting story, so I'll tell it.

Truth is, I only played for money once, and that was a long time ago. I was probably seventeen or eighteen. Some clever fellow discovered that I had a few bills. Looking back, I suppose it was the bloke who asked me if I had "change for a Twenty".

I was soon invited to participate. Now I was not unacquainted with the game, as I had been a magic enthusiast since about the age of seven. I knew the basic routines, like The Three-Shell Game and The Cups and Balls.

I was naturally curious. But also quite sceptical.

As I related above--I was absolutely wretched at spotting The Money Card. Even when no sleights were employed.

The Operator was quite unsettled by my inability to "follow the lady". I had no idea why at the time.

Regardless, I was induced to place my wager (I think it was about $5).

I was more fascinated by the man's moves than I was interested in the location of "the lady". So I really had no clue where she was.

But I knew enough not to choose The Obvious One. That was right out. I picked what I considered to be The Least Likely. The one farthest from me and the one he was ignoring as if it weren't an option.

He looked horrified. But then he smiled as if contented with some private thought, and revealed that I had won.

I wanted to try again, but he was dead-set against me playing. He gave me a tenner and I was hustled out of the way. I suspect he had to pay me, or risk disaffecting other customers.

Since learning the technique involved, I tend to deliberately choose The Wrong Card in order to discourage The Operator, as well as prospective "suckers" from the game.

"Time is money" they say. And any time I can waste in this racket is well spent.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 16th, 2022, 8:52 pm

You use the word "bloke" which makes me assume you are British. However, the out that is normally used in the UK when the correct card is discovered doesn't seem to be present in your description which makes me think you are American or at least the incident occurred in the US since I get the impression that they do it differently there. And of course you say the word "bill" rather than "note" which does appear to make you American.

It does happen quite often that someone will pick the right card so of course procedures have to be used to deal with that eventuality. The upshot is that your bet will not be accepted. In the UK you would NEVER be given ten pounds back or allowed to win! I know there are fictional descriptions of the operators allowing people to win to gain confidence. Perhaps this goes on in America but I have never come across it even once in Britain. Even the "ricks" (not the American word "sticks") do not win money. In fact they lose it and show annoyance that they have been conned and sidle up to potential suckers whispering, "It's a con!" shaking their heads in mock disgust. We are not going off topic here because all the "ricks" are terrible actors and stick out a mile because they all look like they have just come out of jail (which they probably have!). They keep losing money and pretend great annoyance muttering to some poor innocent person who is about to be relieved of their money what a scam it all is and whisper that they know what the scam is. They will suddenly bet on the correct card and end up in a mock staged argument with the operator who will say, "Your bet doesn't count---you have to put your money on the card"

Oh there is more to it and I now no longer have any energy to tell you the rest but this little excerpt will give you a bit of an idea what goes on.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 16th, 2022, 9:22 pm

Yes it was in America. And I think I was very lucky to get the money. I never tried that again, for fear of starting a violent altercation.

I have been tempted though. Now that I know what to look for, I could probably keep track of the card, but--of course it would not end well.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 16th, 2022, 11:24 pm

These people are not nice people either in the US or in Britain. Many have police records and criminal backgrounds. You are wise to keep well clear of them. Incidentally, I do remember one ploy if you actually get the right card. One of the shills will suddenly bet on the same card that you did within seconds of you doing it. The operator will say, "I can't take two bets at once. One at a time please" and refuse the bets. I have seen the "rick" commiserate with the victim saying in a whisper to him, "It's a con--that was the right card!" Another ploy used is to say, "Where's your money? You have to put your money on the card!" In other words the physical money rather than just point to the card. There is always a reason not to accept the bet. After doing so the "ricks" will always commiserate with the guy saying under their breath, "it's a bloody scam!" Of course they don't inform the sucker that they are part of the scam!

Another thing thing that happens is if the punter starts to argue with the operator the shills seem to emerge from their pretense of being normal members of the public by suddenly crowding out the protestor saying things like, "you have to put the money on the card--it's the rules"

I think I remember that the police in London at first didn't have much to charge these people with except "causing an obstruction" on the public sidewalk or something. However, I believe they later brought in much stricter laws and were able to put them in jail. The only reason I know this is simply because it was gossip among the pitchmen (grafters) I knew. With the heavy fines and stricter enforcement it became an unprofitable venture after a while since there were a lot of mouths to feed when you consider the operator, the shills and the lookout man who stood on the outside of the crowd looking out for uniformed police.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 17th, 2022, 2:27 am

As I recall, he had already taken my money, but I dropped a coin on the card of my choice (as if I knew what I was doing). I don't think that was the practice in this particular game, but I had seen it done elsewhere that way.

Maybe it was my eccentricity that persuaded him to be fair. Figuring there couldn't be another one like me in the crowd! Just pay me and get rid of me.

He might have thought it was worth $5 to usher me out.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 17th, 2022, 3:01 pm

Tarotist wrote: I do remember one ploy if you actually get the right card. One of the shills will suddenly bet on the same card that you did within seconds of you doing it. The operator will say, "I can't take two bets at once. One at a time please" and refuse the bets.


Yes I've always wondered about that. Why would he not have an "out"?

Maybe the shill didn't get the signal.

But after some more reflection, I think The Op might simply have suspected that I was trying to hustle him.

The way I seemed too inept at finding The Money Card, when he wasn't even using the sleight. And then, all of a sudden, getting it right.

He might have thought I had an entourage, intent on upping the ante beyond his means. I had quite an attitude back then, and anyone might have mistaken me for a Fortunate Son.

I do believe he was genuinely troubled by the dichotomy of my apparent naivete and my savvy manner. Something just "wasn't right". It must have seemed like a "sting" of some kind.

And as for not insisting that the money be slapped on the table--I think that can be explained by the climate. This was right on the seacoast, and rather breezy. It would have been very difficult to persuade anyone to put down paper money in this situation. A gust, and it would be blown off the table into the crowd, never to be reunited with its owner. Ironically, it seemed safer in The Operator's shirt-pocket.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Brad Henderson » April 17th, 2022, 3:20 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
DennisLisi wrote:I think the problem in this discussion derives from a lot of people's idea that "acting" is a mysterious thing that they can't personally comprehend (or master).

I would say the opposite.
Acting isn't very mysterious at all. It is craft for which there are training and educations. It is a known and established profession that make use of certain skills. That's all.

The problem, as I see it, is that a lot of people here doesn't want to recognize acting as a legitimate profession, and think of it as merely pretending on the same level as a child.
Then there are others who for unknown reasons have elevated acting to something more than what it is, while having weird feelings of inferiority regarding our own field, and who desperately want to aspire to this imaginary 'greatness' they think acting have, by pretending there's no differences at all between our fields.


Acting is both a legitimate profession and a skill set. By your argument here someone isn’t a magician if they don’t do it professionally?!?!?

As dennis has pointed out you want to define acting in its narrowest terms - though you weirdly refuse to actually offer a definition that applies only to acting and excludes all things that are not acting. And it’s likely your attempt to define acting would be in terms not even all actors would agree upon. But yet you want to consider anyone who does any trick of any kind of any level a ‘magician’.

You really seem to be so hung up on not admitting your position is untenable that you will dance in circles rather than actually expand your thinking.

Who has weird feelings of inferiority toward magic? I haven’t seen that here. It seems this is a dodge to have it both ways. It’s ok to differentiate between ‘real’ acting and ‘poor’ or ‘childish’ acting - both of which exist. But you want to condemn the differentiation between magic that not just puzzles but actually conveys they feelings of the experience of the impossible from the tricks and ruses of the neophyte and unskilled.

You want your apples to be oranges and the oranges to be apples at whatever whim benefits your desperate clinging to ideas that just don’t withstand scrutiny.

And I’m unaware of anyone who has said there is no difference between acting and conjuring. Acting is a skill that successful conjures employ. It is also a profession that is different from magicians.

Someone here was going on about words having meaning and using them carefully. I wish that person would choose to do so - because when you paint with such wide brushes your communicate nothing but desperation

To successfully convey a believable magical experience requires acting.

It does not require fast fingers

We are not jugglers. But actors playing the role of the magician.

How this isn’t self evident continues to perplex me

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 17th, 2022, 4:05 pm

DennisLisi wrote:
Tarotist wrote: I do remember one ploy if you actually get the right card. One of the shills will suddenly bet on the same card that you did within seconds of you doing it. The operator will say, "I can't take two bets at once. One at a time please" and refuse the bets.


And as for not insisting that the money be slapped on the table--I think that can be explained by the climate. This was right on the seacoast, and rather breezy. It would have been very difficult to persuade anyone to put down paper money in this situation. A gust, and it would be blown off the table into the crowd, never to be reunited with its owner. Ironically, it seemed safer in The Operator's shirt-pocket.


While Tom and Brad are arguing I think I should explain about the wind matter. Whenever I have seen the "ricks" slam the money down on the table right on top of the card they keep their hand flat on the money so it doesn't blow away. However, I also suspect that in America they operate a different procedure than they might do in the UK. Oddly enough the same truth applies with svengali pitchmen in both countries (not that there are many true svengali pitchmen left in either country). The American way of pitching svengali decks is completely different from the British way. Different routine and different procedures. I expect the 3 card monte is along the same lines.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby DennisLisi » April 18th, 2022, 8:15 am

I have seen it done the traditional way as well (covering the card with the money), but it's mostly the shills who do that. If the punter hands his note to The Op, he will likely take it "for safe keeping" rather than instruct him on proper betting etiquette. I don't think Americans care about tradition, just getting their hands on the money.

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 18th, 2022, 9:10 am

DennisLisi wrote:I have seen it done the traditional way as well (covering the card with the money), but it's mostly the shills who do that. If the punter hands his note to The Op, he will likely take it "for safe keeping" rather than instruct him on proper betting etiquette. I don't think Americans care about tradition, just getting their hands on the money.


Oh, not just Americans! Greed is everywhere. I used to live in Blackpool so I know!

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Re: magician as an actor

Postby Tarotist » April 18th, 2022, 12:45 pm

Oddly enough I was just reading this morning Fitzkee's thoughts on the matter not in his well known showmanship book but in "The Card Expert Entertains". If you have the book check out page 71. It appears that Fitzkee was somewhat irritated concerning a criticism from Paul Fleming in a review when he had stated that Fitzkee's contention that you must BELIEVE that you are doing the real thing when you do a move. Actually I know Slydini thought along the same lines according to the books written about him. Fleming thought this was an exaggeration and blathered away on page 71 and a tiny bit of page 70 to refute the criticism. He chatters about Stanislavski and puts great emphasis on acting in magic.

Anyway, if you are interested check it out.


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