Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.
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Zig Zagger
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Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Zig Zagger » September 5th, 2020, 5:04 pm

The concept of time is a wonderful invention (or rather a discovery?). In short, time is both momentary and eternal, flying and stretching, a constant blending of then, now and soon, irretrievable and virtually inescapable. Except for magicians, of course, be they on stage, in books or in movies.

Incidentally, I believe that time traveling is one of the most fascinating phenomena for an audience, besides resurrection and floating, as they know bloody well from daily experience that time cannot be stopped, replayed or altered in retrospect. Time wasted is time lost forever. That's why it's a strong premise for any trick if it seemingly allows people or objects to travel through time and space.

This got me thinking about various concepts of time in magic, beyond the time-traveling theme. Here are a dozen other aspects:

- the time and age of magic, way back when and today, with fashions always shifting and sometimes coming back in circles (and magicians sometimes "falling out of time" with their props, patter, or demeanor)
- tricks with clocks, watches, etc. or about time as an overarching theme
- the right time (and place) you choose to perform (or not)
- the specific, measurable time and duration of a trick or performance
- time wasted during tricks or endless patter
- the perception of time passing quickly or slowly during a show from a magician's perspective vs. the audience's (and boy, that gap may be huge!)
- time as a benchmark tool, as in Silly Billy's laughs-per-minute ratio
- the right "timing" of doing something, secret or not
- time as in time misdirection
- time used as a dramatic countdown towards the climax of a trick (cf. David Copperfield's death saw illusion)
- time as a presentational choice to do tricks either in slow motion or in high speed/fast forward mode, or part of a trick as a replay
- time as the crucial factor between trigger and effect that determines whether a transposition is actually perceived as a trick in the mind of the audience - a slow sub trunk illusion would not qualify as magic, neither a slow quick change.
- ...?

That's my list so far, but I guess there's at least another dozen more out there.

Time will tell... or you, hopefully. Thank you for adding to the list!
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Edward Pungot » September 5th, 2020, 9:13 pm

There are youtube clips floating around of Asian magicians doing non-linear close-up card tricks. They have a surreal, aesthetically pleasing quality about them.
Tom Stone posted a few of these clips many years ago on his facebook page.

Jerry Sadowitz published his "Backward Card Trick" in his booklet Cards on the Table.

My first encounter with this premise was Steve Freeman 's "Time Machine Card Trick" plot.

Mentalism seems to imply working with blocked units of time where future events are already beinging played-out and tapped into.

Sci-fi & physics literature seems the best route for inspirational/presentational ideas. (psilocybin mushrooms optional)

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Bill Duncan » September 5th, 2020, 9:28 pm

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime...

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Bill Duncan » September 5th, 2020, 9:28 pm

doubly so.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby MagicbyAlfred » September 5th, 2020, 10:08 pm

A fascinating post, Zig Zagger. Definitely food for thought. (Gosh, that reminds me, it's dinner time). Here's a few more humble offerings for the list:

* The amount of time spent performing magic for a particular spectator or audience. I think one of the worst things a magician can do is to perform too long. What's too long? I think you just have to develop a sense based on your experience and perceptions - but generally speaking, less is more. It's not set in stone and it depends on the circumstances. Oftentimes the people themselves and their level of receptivity or enthusiasm (or lack thereof) is the best barometer. In doing strolling close up these days, I generally do just one trick for a person or group, unless they specifically ask for more. I will often circle back later and often, they will be hungry to see more, or they will even seek you out. I strongly believe in the old show business maxim, "Leave them wanting more." For a stand up show, I rarely agree to do more than a half hour, and oftentimes, I will recommend 15-20 minutes as optimal. I say this knowing that there are some splendid performers who can engage an audience for substantially longer. This is just what works best for me.

* Intentional time delays for purposes of build-up, drama and/or surprise. Examples would be, the cup is lifted, but the little ball that was supposed to magically travel from the pocket hasn't yet arrived. The cup is set down; the magician looks at his watch and says "It's late." Then the cup is lifted and the ball is there. Or, a short time delay before revealing a final load in the cups and balls. The lemon or big ball is already underneath, but when the cup is lifted, there is apparently nothing there (because the pinky is holding the lemon inside). The cup is then set back down, and a second later, it is lifted and voila, there it is. That acquitment, followed by a 1 or 2 second time delay can greatly enhance the effect.

* The Clock Card Trick. It's both intriguing and aesthetically pleasing because the cards are arranged in a circular clock formation and they physically represent the 12 hours on a clock. This is, of course, a very specific application of the time theme to card magic. Many years ago, a very good friend generously showed me what was, by far, the strongest version of the clock card trick I have ever seen or read about. It is a veritable miracle, where both the hour thought of and the card appearing at that hour on the "clock" are discerned under seemingly impossible conditions. I still use it to this day. It is one of my go-to tricks when performing for magicians, and it has mystified some pretty illustrious ones.

* Taking people back to a different time, historically, through presentation (for example, a story or demonstration of something that happened in a past time) and/or through the use of certain props from a different era. The first trick the late great Roger Klause showed me when I met him was a sweet but powerful little trick, the theme of which was the old Silver Certificate Dollar Bills. Roger told an engaging story of how Silver Certificates, which we hardly ever see today, were once fairly common and how you could go to a bank and redeem them for the equivalent of their face value in silver, He rolled up a borrowed dollar into a cone with apparently empty hands, saying to imagine it was one of those old bills, and calling the rolled ups bill a "cornucopia" or "horn of plenty." He had me hold out my hand, and when he inverted the bill, out spilled 10 beautiful old Mercury dimes into my hand - the real silver ones. A very magical moment, evocative of a past time.
Last edited by MagicbyAlfred on September 5th, 2020, 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 5th, 2020, 10:19 pm

Agreed with MagicbyAlfred and thanks ++

Time travel in stories serves as a method of reconnecting strands of narrative.

But travel time ... finding a shortest practical path and watching for signs which indicate travel away from that path... :D ;)

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Q. Kumber » September 6th, 2020, 2:18 am

My first encounter with a time travel trick was in Bruce Elliott's Magic as a Hobby, the last routine in the first chapter.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Philippe Billot » September 6th, 2020, 2:56 am

Q. Kumber wrote:My first encounter with a time travel trick was in Bruce Elliott's Magic as a Hobby, the last routine in the first chapter.


No Time Lost by Bruce Elliott & Frank V. Taylor can be found in The Phoenix no. 109, July 1, 1946

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Bob Farmer » September 6th, 2020, 10:15 am

This fall, Ted Outerbridge and I will be releasing the Time Deck™ along with a 150-page user's manual of all new effects, some of which are so amazingly deceptive and astounding, they fool and astound even me (or someone just like me). Every effect is based on a time theme and uses the unique attributes of the Time Deck™ to create completely unique presentations, methods and effects.

Watch the skies. Klaatu barada nikto! Or, send an email to Bammomagic@cogeco.ca with the subject, "Time Deck," to be added to the notification list.
Last edited by Bob Farmer on September 6th, 2020, 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Lyons » September 6th, 2020, 10:24 am

Time travel to create the magic.

I do a bit where I have a card selected, a person selected through "Seven Keys to Baldpate", and a time is chosen.

They are stand alone effects and revelations that a spectator has been recording the results of on a chalkboard.

After the three are complete, my prediction on an ungimmicked Mental Epic is revealed that I had gone back in time to record.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Edward Pungot » September 6th, 2020, 12:56 pm

Jon Racherbaumer has a compilation manuscript on time related effects available as a PDF download at lybrary.com titled Timely Trickery (2018).

Jon sweeps the magical literature with an emphasis on card tricks, including historical non-card precursors such as the one already cited by Bruce Elliott (1946).

Racherbaumer gives the earliest magic reference to this plot to Charles Wicks's "The Charmed Watch" routine published in The Magic Wand (1935).

There is one non-magic related book recommendation given in the forward worth pointing out: James Gleick's Time Travel: A History (2016).

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Bob Farmer » September 6th, 2020, 1:15 pm

The Racherbaumer book is really good.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 6th, 2020, 2:27 pm

I was always fascinated in topics like time.

I then found that physics tend not to get into the philosophical weeds when it comes to analyzing the concept of time.

Later I found that philosophy avoided the topic as well. It took me about 15 years of studying philosophy before I found a branch of philosophy devoted to the philosophy of science.

Usually philosopy of science is devoted to understanding what we mean by science, and how is it different from other pursuits like philosophy? The work of Karl Popper is a good example of this sort of thing.

I was not interested in analyzing the concept of science. I wanted to get my hands dirty analyzing things like time. Well - eventually I got there. Philosophers - with the a physics background - doing a deep dive into the philosophical consequences of the work of Einstein, quantum mechanics and the work of the philosopher J.M.E McTaggert.

I will pass on some of these references at the end of this post. But I just wanted to share some of the conceptual analysis I carried out a few years as I studied the work of Ernst Mach. This is from an email I sent to a friend who was writing a book on the philosophy of time.

I have spent the past couple of years studying the work of Einstein. And one thing that stands out is that his work was as much conceptual analysis as it was physics.

The relativity of simultaneity is the real heart of the special theory of relativity.

One of the things I like about Einstein’s work here is that he has applied conceptual analysis to the concept of time and pulled out a logical strand that all previous philosophers have overlooked.

For centuries, philosophers thought about time. And in doing so they smuggled in the assumption that inherent to the concept of time is that simultaneous events will be the same for all observers. Indeed this was such a buried assumption – that no philosopher ever bothered to even note it when analyzing the concept of time.

Then Einstein comes along – points out this hidden assumption. And then goes on to say that it is an incorrect assumption. And goes on to revolutionize our understanding of time and space – thanks to the breakthrough offered by the experiment that showed the speed of light is the same for all observers.

Sadly – most philosophers are too lazy to appreciate the philosophical importance of what he did.

This is an interesting area.

Ernst Mach (who preceded Einstein) was the first to think in these ways. It is a shame his books are so expensive. I should get down the university library and borrow some.

Mach wondered if time was an unnecessary metaphysical fiction? I haven’t done a proper study of Ernst Mach yet. But a search on google brings up this helpful passage from Julian Barbour:
—————————————
Mach remarked “It is utterly beyond our power to measure the changes of things by time. Quite the contrary, time is an abstraction at which we arrive through the changes of things.” Thus, time as such does not exist but only change.
————————————–
I wish I could find the exact example from Ernst Mach. But he once said something like you can have physics without any notion of time. Since objects fall at the same rate on Earth. You could measure measure the heat loss of an object (which is dependent on time) by how far it falls in a vacuum (which is also dependent on time).

Once you “divide both sides” by the concept of time – time as a concept can drop out of the equation. I am relying on my memory to dig up the example Mach gave – but I am pretty sure it is the same as what I detailed above.

As for your question about Einstein’s verificationist approach to analyzing simultaneity? My initial guess is that it is something we can never truly know. It is something only “god” could ever know. It is like asking are there multiple universe? Unless we have an experiment to help us decide either way – both interpretations can never be fully ruled out.

We have no need for the concept of “absolute time” in Einstein’s universe. But does that mean that Absolute Time is still “real” but something we can never prove? Who knows.

Interestingly – the very heart of Einstein’s theory is built on top of an assumption that is impossible to prove. Below is the best description of the problem I have seen. It turns out it is impossible to directly measure the speed of light.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9PAGpwS8G0

I should add that Bell’s Theorem provides a strong hint that absolute time does turn out to exist after all.

It shows that entangled particles really are influencing each other at a speed far faster than light (and probably instantaneously).

The simplest proof of this theorem can be found here:

http://quantumtantra.com/bell2.html

It is interesting stuff but I am unsure exactly how it plays into the debate surrounding the existence of absolute time. Perhaps it has nothing to say on the issue? I am really not sure.

Still it is an interesting theory since its consequences are so profound. And because it was proved on a purely logical level and not a scientific level – it is really a form of “experimental metaphysics”.

Here are some useful references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_series_and_B_series

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Relativity-Sim ... VITY+CRAIG

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reality-Experi ... 434&sr=1-4 [I own this book - it is very good]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/019 ... 1_2&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/041 ... 1_1&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Boojums-All-Wa ... vid+mermin

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/063 ... UTF8&psc=1 [very good book]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/004 ... UTF8&psc=1 [this book has the best coverage of the true meaning of the Twin Paradox in relativity]

--------------------------

I should add that my meta-philosophy is couched in conceptual analysis. I think this is the best way to approach philosophy. Colin McGinn is the best proponent of this method. The following book is my favourite book on philosophy, and in it he sets out how powerful this approach to philosophy can be:

https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Analysis-G ... oks&sr=1-6

You will see my lengthy 5 star review for the book in the link above. Strangely, I am the only person to have ever bothered reviweing this amazing book.
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 6th, 2020, 2:33 pm

Back then I came up with a curious observation about the link between Relativity and Free Will. It turns out I had been beaten to this observation 40 years earlier.

So - here is a link to the original argument:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rietdijk% ... m_argument

And here is my attempt at explaining the same idea to a friend in an an email from back then:

You are in your bedroom. And some alien 1000 million light years away is having a cup of tea. You then go to your toilet. And that same alien will now not even be born for another 200 years (from your new perspective of 'now' - and remember every point in the universe has a different perspective of 'now' due to relativity. Indeed - this is why Einstein's theory is called relativity.)

Now - when you go back to your bedroom - that same alien is suddenly alive and having a cup of tea again.

So - his 'future' is always fixed. He has no way of knowing this. But - if you did the calculations and measurements - you could show that the alien would definitely have being having a cup of tea at a certain point in time. And that this event was totally fixed in the future.

Now - it is a largely academic discussion. Since you will only ever be able to show that something had to have happened millions of years after the event took place. But - still - on a philosophical level that is irrelevent. Since - the principle still holds that our future is fixed.

Look at it another way.

You are reading this email.

And some alien - 1000 million light years away is stood in a cave.

He then leaves the cave to go have a piss.

As he does so - from his perspective - the earth is now in the year 1884. And you haven't even being born yet.

But - as soon as he enters the cave again - he will enter the same 'relativistic space-timeline' with the earth now being in the year 2013.

So - it would seem that your present actions are fixed. Since - whatever you are doing now is fixed from the alien's point of view. Each time he pops in and out of his cave - he keeps being thrown into alignment with your present actions. And each time - those actions are the same.

So - thanks to relativity - we know the past, present and future are all fixed. But that still - probably leaves open the question of whether or not we have free will. I am not sure yet.

I find maths dull. And I am not very good at it. So - take all the above with a pinch of salt. I am very much using the tools of philosophy and not physics when trying to grapple with the ideas of Einstein.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 6th, 2020, 2:50 pm

Now - getting back to magic - 'Back In Time' by Jay Sankey is the best card trick ever invented.

It is a brilliant trick based around the concept of time travel.

Andy (over at The Jerx) has a few tricks exploring the concept of stopping time as well. They are all really great.
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 6th, 2020, 2:54 pm

The Racherbaumer book mentioned earlier is new to me. I am going to check it out.

Thanks!

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Jack Shalom » September 6th, 2020, 2:56 pm

Here's the title of a book I owned that fascinated me that's probably still sitting at the bottom of some cardboard box in some abandoned NYC apartment that used to be rented out to college students back in the 70s:

https://www.amazon.com/Direction-Time-D ... 394&sr=8-3

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Paco Nagata » September 6th, 2020, 9:06 pm

In the summer of 2010 (quite a long time ago), I was living in Osaka, studying Japanese and working half-time in a Spanish bar-restaurant.
One night at the end of my dutty, my girlfriend (now my wife) came to pick me up.
As I was tidying up we started to talk.

She said once in a tone of resignation:
"I'm getting old."
She was looking through the window a young couple walking down the street.

She felt so basically because she is 9 years older than me, but she looks like much younger than me! So I told her: "don't be silly. You look like even younger than me!"
She smiled and told me: "Thank you, but the number of years scares me."

So then, I took a deck of cards and told her: "come here!"

I told her that my "magical power" was not so powerful to take her to one year back in time but only a minute. Then, I performed for her Steve Freeman 's "Time Machine Card Trick" plot, so she were one minute younger than before thanks to that magic.

She smiled and told me: "One minute is one minute, thank you!"
Then, I told her: "So then, if I do this trick for you 500.000 times you'll get one year less, right?"

She loud laughed and said:
"Will you do that for me?!"
I replied:
"Why not? I love card magic!"

We finished laughing and laughing.

I love Steve Freeman 's "Time Machine Card Trick." It has given to me so great magical memories!
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 6th, 2020, 9:33 pm

That is a lovely story.

I recently saw a trick on a Murphy's At The Table lecture where a trick is done where you apparently make everybody in the room a couple of minutes younger. I think it was on the Danny Garcia lecture from a few years ago.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Edward Pungot » September 6th, 2020, 11:40 pm

Regarding the Walton/Freeman "Time Trick." Check out the Nov. 2000 Michael Skinner issue in Genii Magazine. On page 25 you will find "Skinner's Time Trick Finesse" where the concept of the extended pause is mentioned, along with other presentational considerations such as how Skinner transitions out of the trick.

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 6th, 2020, 11:41 pm

Thanks for sharing your story Paco.

Ed Marlo has an item based around time travel. Ron Bauer has a presentation of Marlo's item in his #16 item including a card you give the audience.

Showing time travel, or telling about it, takes some effort. Entanglement is a less difficult sell. They call it coincidence. ;)

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 7th, 2020, 2:11 am

Peter Duffie had an unusual Gilbreath effect which he used to give away free on his site. It was called EMIT.

It is a Back in Time packet card effect:

1) You have a packet of 20 cards (just ordinary number cards) in RED/BLACK/RED/BLACK etc order. You show the spectator the cards in RED/BLACK/RED/BLACK order. You tell them this is the starting position.

2) You show 4 Aces on top of the packet - and now use a switch-out (such as the Braue Addition?) to switch the 4 Aces for 4 cards in
RED/BLACK/RED/BLACK order.

3) You now insert the 4 RED/BLACK/RED/BLACK (which the spectator believes are Aces) into the packet of cards - making sure the 4 card are well spaced out in the packet.

4) You click your fingers - and say this causes the cards to go back in time a few seconds.

5) Now - show the 4 Aces on top of the packet.

6) Then deal off the cards in the rest of the packet - two cards at a time.

7) Doing so will show pairs of cards in RED/BLACK order (or occasionally BLACK/RED) order. This gives the strong impression that the rest of the cards in the packet are still in RED/BLACK/RED/BLACK order.

The cards have successfully gone back in time!

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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Paco Nagata » September 7th, 2020, 10:11 am

That's a beautiful idea, Joe. I didn't know about it, so thanks a lot for let us know about it.
I would like to perform it sometime along with the name of Peter Duffie.
A very nice use of the Gilbreath principle!
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Paco Nagata » September 7th, 2020, 10:21 am

Edward Pungot wrote:Regarding the Walton/Freeman "Time Trick." Check out the Nov. 2000 Michael Skinner issue in Genii Magazine. On page 25 you will find "Skinner's Time Trick Finesse" where the concept of the extended pause is mentioned, along with other presentational considerations such as how Skinner transitions out of the trick.

Thanks for the reference, Edward!

Joe Mckay wrote:That is a lovely story.

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Thanks for sharing your story Paco.

Thanks for your appreciation, gentlemen!
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Zig Zagger » September 7th, 2020, 12:34 pm

Thank you all, but especially to Alfred, Paco and Joe, for sharing your beautiful thoughts, sources or anecdotes!
Please keep them coming!

I've found a nice quote on time, which should also work well for magicians:

“We must use time as a tool, not as a couch.”
– John F. Kennedy
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Re: Thoughts On the Concept of Time in Magic

Postby Joe Mckay » September 7th, 2020, 3:25 pm

Here is an idea from the famous mathematician (Kurt Godel) that shows time travel could actually be possible thanks to Einstein's theory of relativity (it is something to do with the rotation of the universe - I don't understand it).

https://inference-review.com/article/time-travelers

And here is a funny (and simple) way to achieve time travel:

https://www.timetravelfund.com/


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