The place of Edward Victor in magic history

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Mr. Charming

The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Mr. Charming » August 24th, 2019, 9:47 pm

Edward Victor (RIP) was the actual creator of Tilt and the "Elmsley Count", among many other things. Unfortunately his place in the history of magic isn't recognized as it should. I would feel better if magicians would recognize his work and contributions to the world of magic.

Bill Mullins
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Putting a card in from the side isn't "Tilt", and the Elmsley count isn't done with three cards.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 25th, 2019, 2:12 am

Eleven Card Trick (1951) is an excellent (and now classic) trick CREATED by Edward Victor. "My Rope Routine" (1937) is an ORIGINAL cut and restored rope mystery by Edward Victor but a" three as four count " was described in 1910 by Ellis Stanyon and the Tilt (or "Deepth Illusion" was REALLY created by Dai Vernon (dixit Ed Marlo in his booklet "Tilt!" published in 1962. If you want more details for the Tilt, look for Jon Racherbaumer's article in Sticks and Stones, Vol. 01, no. 10, 1977, "How Deep Is This Illusion?"

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 25th, 2019, 4:04 am

Excerpt from The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley (written by Stephen Minch), Tome 1, 1991, page 26.

"When Mr. Elmsley published his count, he cited Edward Victor's E-Y-E count and a false count devised by Eric de la Mare (see p. 232) as important sources for elements of the sequence (the block pushoff and the under-the-packet return respectively). Earlier sources exist for these ideas: Charles Jordan and Laurie Ireland for the block push-off, and Ellis Stanyon for the under-the-packet return. It was years later that Mr. Elmsley's friend Francis Haxton unearthed a clearly related sleight by Charles Jordan in a 1919 trick, "The Phantom Aces" (ref. 30 Card Mysteries, pp. 37-38). Mr. Jordan's sleight, now known as the Jordan count, though used originally as a displacement only, also concealed the bottom card of a four-card packet. It's similar handling made it perfectly suited for combination with the Elmsley count, as has been amply demonstrated during the past few decades by Edward Mario and others after him."

As you can read, Elmsley quote Edward Victor as a source of inspiration

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 25th, 2019, 5:31 am

On the other hand, Edward Victor described a Convincing Control BEFORE Edward Marlo!!!

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2019, 12:11 am

Has Mr. Charming's account been deleted?

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 26th, 2019, 12:33 am

Those who wish to explore his books *Magic of the Hands will find some history.
Anyone doing E-Y-E or his card control as written?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 26th, 2019, 1:48 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Has Mr. Charming's account been deleted?
Apparently yes.
He made a disparaging remark regarding Michael Close which was quickly deleted and subsequently ...
Richard Kaufman wrote:Mr. Charming has departed the building.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 26th, 2019, 6:23 am

Let's take this opportunity to pay tribute to our beloved Big Chief who had the joly good idea to re-publish The Magic of the Hands Trilogy in 1995.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » September 22nd, 2019, 10:13 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:...and the Tilt (or "Deepth Illusion" was REALLY created by Dai Vernon (dixit Ed Marlo in his booklet "Tilt!" published in 1962. If you want more details for the Tilt, look for Jon Racherbaumer's article in Sticks and Stones, Vol. 01, no. 10, 1977, "How Deep Is This Illusion?"

Inserting a card under the top one making believe that the card is going deeper into the deck, appears as well as a method (the first one) of Hofzinser's “Remember and Forget,” written by Ottokar Fischer in "J. N. Hofzinser's Card Conjuring" (1931), p. 90 of the S. H. Sharpe translation.
Apparently, it was a great idea that had several great card magicians independently.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Grippo's Wish » October 22nd, 2019, 8:53 pm

E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

In the "Hugards' Letters to Orville Meyer", in one of them from 1938 Hugard mentions the idea of putting together many pick a card tricks, as if nobody has thought of the idea.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Denis Behr » October 23rd, 2019, 1:53 am

Grippo's Wish wrote:E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... revelation

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Grippo's Wish » October 23rd, 2019, 2:14 pm

Denis Behr wrote:
Grippo's Wish wrote:E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... revelation


Interesting. You may consider adding the reference I mentioned; it's in Gibeciere

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » October 24th, 2019, 3:32 am

It seems that Ed Victor created the impromptu method for "The Magnetic Cards." The effect appeared in "New Era Card Trick" as "Gravity Defied," but not impromptu.
It's about keeping ALL the cards spread stuck on the magician's palm. It is quite interesting being able to do it "impromptuly."
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » October 24th, 2019, 7:59 am

Paco Nagata wrote:It seems that Ed Victor created the impromptu method for "The Magnetic Cards." The effect appeared in "New Era Card Trick" as "Gravity Defied," but not impromptu.
It's about keeping ALL the cards spread stuck on the magician's palm. It is quite interesting being able to do it "impromptuly."



You can read a premise in The Sphinx, vol. 12, no. 3, May 1913, page 55 but it doesn't use all the deck.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » October 24th, 2019, 9:10 am

Philippe Billot wrote:You can read a premise in The Sphinx, vol. 12, no. 3, May 1913, page 55 but it doesn't use all the deck.

Interesting! Does it credit the idea to someone or it is assumed Annemann's idea?
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Joe Lyons » October 24th, 2019, 9:18 am

Paco Nagata wrote:
Philippe Billot wrote:You can read a premise in The Sphinx, vol. 12, no. 3, May 1913, page 55 but it doesn't use all the deck.

Interesting! Does it credit the idea to someone or it is assumed Annemann's idea?


With respect, you're thinking of the Jinx.

It's attributed to W.W. McWilliams.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » October 24th, 2019, 10:22 am

Ouch!
Sorry and thank you Joe!
Actually I tend to confuse both.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Joe Lyons » October 24th, 2019, 11:21 am

Paco Nagata wrote:Ouch!
Sorry and thank you Joe!
Actually I tend to confuse both.

Me too.
Sphinx, Jinx, Phoenix, New Jinx, New Phoenix.
:)

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Denis Behr » October 24th, 2019, 11:38 am

Grippo's Wish wrote:
Denis Behr wrote:
Grippo's Wish wrote:E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... revelation


Interesting. You may consider adding the reference I mentioned; it's in Gibeciere

I was looking for it when you mentioned it, but couldn't locate it at a brief glance on the 1938 letters. Did you note down the page?

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby performer » November 1st, 2019, 9:11 am

Paco Nagata wrote:It seems that Ed Victor created the impromptu method for "The Magnetic Cards." The effect appeared in "New Era Card Trick" as "Gravity Defied," but not impromptu.
It's about keeping ALL the cards spread stuck on the magician's palm. It is quite interesting being able to do it "impromptuly."


I have been doing this for decades. Oddly enough never in a performance situation as it can take all day to finish it and I don't want anyone to think I am a mentalist. I use it for photographs. I do tend to do it when having boring conversations with magicians that I am not interested in. I try not to do it at lectures as it may be deemed impolite. However, I admit that I do get sorely tempted.

I once did it in a circus ring in a very ineffective manner. I once did a card act in the circus, in fact probably the only card act in recorded history to be done in a circus, and at the end of the show the performers had to traipse in a giant circle and walk around the perimeter of the ring as a grand finale. The juggler juggled and the elephant just walked. I was sandwiched between the juggler and the elephant and of course didn't stand out very well with such competition. All I could think of to do was walk around with this silly bloody magnetic cards all over my hand hoping to God they wouldn't fall off in the middle of the jaunt.

However I will tell you the most useful thing you can do with the Victor Magnetic Cards. Incidentally you use about half the deck rather than the entire 52 cards. Let us assume that you are an amateur magician who has a desire to perform but you know that wandering up to strangers in the street to do so is a rather daft proposition. Simply sit somewhere in a public place where people are around. Start to make the Magnetic Cards. I would pretend to be reading a book of instructions while you do it. Sooner or later someone will approach you and remark on the matter. You then have an excuse to show them something. If you are any good you can get the whole place around you in a short period. I used to do this sort of thing when I was young and foolish.

Of course I am far too sedate for that sort of thing now.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » November 1st, 2019, 11:06 am

To be honest I have performed it only for children; I've always consider that adult people may not be very interested in this kind of effect, whereas children seem to enjoy it, specially when they try it (without succeed).
Thank you very much for your advises and for telling about your personal experiences, as always. And, by the way, this is my very first conversation with Mark Lewis. A pleasure.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby performer » November 1st, 2019, 12:49 pm

A pleasure talking to you also. I look forward to reading your book.


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