amateurs and professionals

[Bill Mullins]

A recent twitter exchange got me interested in the "amateurs do a lot of tricks for a few people; pros do a few tricks for a lot of people" quote. I sent the following to the participants, and figured it was worth posting here for posterity.


> Re: your recent twitter exchange.
>
> One element of the quote is professionals wringing the last bit from a
> trick through repeated performance, experience, and superior
> presentation. Quotes distinguishing professionals from amateurs by
> way of those elements go back to the early 20th century in _The
> Sphinx_ and elsewhere.
>
> But the essentialness of this quote, comparing amateurs who do many
> tricks for a small audience to professionals who do a few tricks for
> multiple audiences, is newer. This is what a session of AskAlexander
> (and elsewhere) came up with:
>
> *********************************************
>
> "Many hundreds of tricks are available. We shall never be able
> properly to do them all so why not choose a few that we think may be
> pleasing to our audience and spend more time on their proper
> presentation. We must all realize that this in the essence is the
> difference between the amateur and the professional."
> Russ Walsh in Sphinx Mar 1951 p. 62
>
> "This thought is not original with me, but it has been said, with a
> great deal of truth, that the difference between an amateur magician
> and a professional magician is simple -- the professional does the
> same tricks over and over for different audiences, and the amateur
> does different tricks for the same audiences."
> John Novak in New Tops Jan 1979 p 25
>
> "Asked to define the difference between the professional performer and
> the amateur, entertainer Albert Goshman said, "The amateur performs
> new tricks for old audiences, while the professional does old tricks
> for new audiences." "
> Bascom Jones in Magick 9/26/1980 p 1335
>
> "Albert Goshman (do you know anyone with a more professional act of
> that
> type?) has a novel definition of a professional. "A professional is
> someone who does one show a lot of times, while an amateur is someone
> who does a lot of shows once." "
> Michael Ammar in Genii Feb 1982 p 97
>
> "Someone once said that the difference between an amateur and a
> professional magician is that the amateur does many tricks a few
> times, while a professional does a few tricks many times."
> Tony Griffith in Genii Dec 1982 p 835
>
> "He [Robert K. Miller] knows full well that the major difference
> between the professional and the amateur is that the amateur is
> constantly learning new tricks because his audience stays much the
> same, while the professional changes his audiences and polishes the
> same tricks over and over."
> Phil Willmarth in Linking Ring Nov 1984p 65
>
> "I have never forgotten the wisdom of an old Danish pro magician,
> Heniz Soxburger, who said to me once "Do you know the difference
> between a professional and an amateur magician?' When I said 'No!' He
> said 'An amateur does 200 tricks in 12 days, a professional does 12
> tricks in 200 days' and of course he is absolutely correct."
> Kim Kenneth in Magicana (New Zealand magazine) Apr/May 1998 p 7
>
> "Master magician John Calvert once observed, "The difference between
> an amateur magician and a professional is that amateurs are always
> changing tricks and professionals change audiences." "
> Rauscher and Broecker in The Great Raymond 1996 p 49
>
> ****************************************
>
> So the core of the quote starts appearing in print no later than 1979,
> and is attributed to Goshman soon after (but without citation -- where
> did he say it? The Patrick Page book doesn't come out until 1985.)
> The 1941 Walsh quote is close, but not quite it.
>
> AskAlexander isn't a complete magic library, and my searches may not
> be exhaustive, so it's possible that someone could find an earlier
> version elsewhere. Perhaps Goshman would state the maxim in lectures,
> and that is the vector from which it spread (or maybe Calvert or
> Soxburger, or someone else).
>

I'd be interested if anyone can tie the quote to Goshman before 1980 or so, via lecture notes, manuscripts, or personal anecdotes. Was this something he was inclined to say around the Magic Castle, for example?

[Bill Mullins]

Update: Professor Hoffmann, "The Young Wizard" The Boys Own Paper 24 July 1886 p 686
"The great distinction between the amateur and the professional conjurer is that the latter only attempts to perform a small number of tricks, and by dint of constant practice performs them well , while the amateur aspires to exhibit a great many, and consequently performs them badly."

[Philippe Billot]

And don't forget the so call sentence by David Devant!

See David Britland's article in CARDOPOLIS, may 04, 2017

[Q. Kumber]

And don't forget the so call sentence by David Devant!

See David Britland's article in CARDOPOLIS, may 04, 2017

Thank you Philippe. Excellent article.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Interesting topic. Having done quite a bit of restaurant work over the decades, I was effectively forced to continually learn new material. When you have magic-loving families that come in once or twice a week over a period of 3 years, and "regulars" who, like the old TV show Cheers, are almost permanent fixtures at the bar, they are expecting new tricks. And given the extravagant generosity of some of them, I was going to make dang sure I didn't let them down. One trick that no one ever seemed to tire of, and that was endlessly requested, was signed Card on Ceiling. Certainly, when I scrambled to learn a few new tricks that day or the night before, I could not polish many of them close to what I would have liked. But I got used to learning quick, and I must say it was fun and fascinating!

Although I have certain staples that I virtually always do at special events, I have a pretty big repertoire at this point. I think I would get bored doing the same tricks over and over, time after time. All of this being said, I have known some professional magicians who have a huge repertoire of tricks, and could do almost every one of them flawlessly or almost flawlessly. I would add that some of the greatest magicians I have known in my life were amateurs...

[Bob Coyne]

It's very interesting to see the lineage of this rule and also to question how true it is and/or to identify exceptions. In addition to MagicbyAlfred's account (above), I think Michael Skinner was a professional known for having a huge repertoire. And there are surely many more. It's harder to lump all amateurs together, since the level of dedication and interests for amateurs can vary so widely -- from the uncle who pulls the quarter out of your ear to true students of the art and innovators like Vernon or Marlo. As an amateur, I personally enjoy practicing and trying to perfect a set of core sleights to make them "invisible" rather than learning lots of tricks. As a result, I have to make an active effort to put them into presentable effects.

[Q. Kumber]

Billy McComb wrote:

"Al (Koran) was always intrigued with card magic and also with my designation of the grey area between the amateur and the professional magician. I dubbed them either Amateur-Amateurs or Amateur-Professionals, and Professional-Amateurs or Professional-Professionals.

To elucidate further, the A-A was a magic society act, which would not lead a layperson to book a magician for a function.

An AP was a good workmanlike act with regard for the entertainment of the audience, but who, for varying reasons, held onto their day job.

The P-A was a pro who should never have turned pro in the first place, wouldn’t make much of a living, and invariably worked really cheap to get booked.

The P-Ps were good, hard-working pros that had enough personality, charm, and awareness of an audience’s needs to make a very fair living."

[erdnasephile]

Coincidentally, I came across this statement from JIS in his tribute to Geoff Latta:
"Amateurs innovate. Professionals select."

[John Bowden]

These words were attributed to the music professor Harold Craxton:

'Amateurs [musicians] practice until they can get it right; professionals practice until they can't get it wrong'

(quoted by Harold Craxton, one-time professor at the Royal Academy of Music).

I would assume the same holds true when it comes to magic.

[Richard Kaufman]

Jamy's phrase would not apply, to, say, Del Ray. Or Slydini.

[Brad Jeffers]

"Every professional was once an amateur."

[Q. Kumber]

"Every professional was once an amateur."

Magic is both my profession and hobby making me both a professional and an amateur. While interested since the age of six, the bug really bit at the age of ten when I became a student of the craft. I read everything I could find, developing a knowledge that had both width and depth. When you are young and interested in a subject, you are like a sponge, soaking it all up.

It's a constant source of amazement to me the extraordinary lack of any depth of knowledge by the majority of magicians. My estimate is that at most 10% of them would fit into the category of amateur and/or professional, the rest being at best hobbyists or people who like to know how the tricks are done.

A few years ago I was asked to MC the close-up show at the Blackpool convention, held in the Pavilion theatre seating about 600 and standing room for another 150 or so. It would be fun, I thought, to have a quiz between the acts. Being lazy, I borrowed part of one of Max Maven's Inquisitions from GENII, the names of famous magicians whose initials began with J.N. Six dealers kindly provided prizes, and of course, got a free plug.

Here's the names and clues I used (some of the clues are not as given by Max )

The initials J.N. pertain to a number of magicians. I’m looking for the full names of these magicians whose first two initials are. J.N. as well as their last name. Three names in total.

19th Century author of NOUVELLE MAGIE BLANCHE, considered the first practical treatise on conjuring to appear in any language.
Jean Nicholas Ponsin

A Viennese magician who invented more card tricks than Marlo.
Madame Compars Hermann said, “In the drawing room, he is a god. In the bedroom ……” she didn't finish that bit.
Johann Nepomuk Hofzinser

Ghost writer for T, Nelson Downs, press agent of Thurston, author of Greater Magic.
John Northern Hilliard

Co-founder of England’s Home of Mystery and author of Sharps and Flats
John Nevil Maskelyne

A west coast US magician who has twice won the stage magician of the year at The Magic Castle. Now has dropped his last name.
Jonathan Neal Brown

His column Memoirs of a magicians’ ghost ran for 37 years in the Linking Ring with 435 monthly instalments. After retiring from a full time career in magic he wrote a book that became a bible to many magician.
John Nicholls Booth

Fully expecting multiple hands to be raised for each question, I was truly taken aback to find it wasn't so. No more than twenty hands went up over the course of the afternoon and many of them had the wrong answers. For two of the questions there was no correct answer at all. This in a big room of over 600 magicians.

In fairness, I have very little knowledge of the magic marketplace and magicians on TV over the past fifteen years. Not having had TV since 1996 and paying very little attention to the vast array of tricks hitting the marketplace on a daily basis, most of which seem to vanish into obscurity within six to eight weeks.

In the early 2000's most newcomers into magic seemed to believe that Michael Ammar invented practically everything, now it's Chris Ramsay.

[Paco Nagata]

Assuming that it is true that professionals perform less different magic tricks than amateurs, I must be a kind of strange amateur card magician, since I have been like professionals in that sense. Maybe because of lack of books at the beginning, I've been always used to performing by means of a reduced repertoire, creating variations, different presentations and outcomes.

Well, I think it depends on the magician in question more than on his/her status.

I love the anecdote that David Devant tells in "Lessons in Conjuring" (1922) that Philippe Billot talked about.
I mentioned it in my personal book of card magic (p.228) due that I considered it a very good advise for amateurs.

I think that I have performed around 200 different card tricks along my experience, but only 80 in my regular repertoire. So, my repertoire is 10 times bigger than Devant's (8), but much reduced than Culpitt's (300).

An amateur card magician cousin of mine, who is a good guitarrist and singer as well, asked me that question once:
"What's better, to do many tricks "more or less good" or to do a few very well."
I told him:
"To do many tricks very well! ^_^
But, if you can't do many tricks very well, it is better to shorten your repertoire and focus on them. Think about it; what do you prefer? To sing very well a few songs, or to sing a lot of them in a so-so way?"
Well, my cousin, Javier, finally followed that advise and got a reduced repertoire like me, and like his music career.

Obviously it depends on the talent of the performer.

[erdnasephile]

"The difference between an amateur and a professional is that a professional is wiling to make thousands more mistakes than the amateur."
-- John Carney (as quoted by Jeff McBride in MAGIC, May 2009)

[Paco Nagata]

In my humble opinion, a professional magician is supposed TO BE a magician, so he or she just do magic.
Whereas, an amateur magician is supposed to be a "regular" person that has learnt who to do something that looks like magic.

If anyone disagree with that I will absolutly understand the disagreement, but it is what I reckon.