William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Discuss the historical aspects of magic, including memories, or favorite stories.
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William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » October 8th, 2013, 7:51 pm

Centipede Press has recently published a new edition of William Lindsay Gresham's classic novel, "Nightmare Alley" and a "Grindshow-The Selected Writings of William Lindsay Gresham."

Both have introductions and added material by Bret Wood.

Beautifully produced, they contain information about Gresham and his works that haven't been mostly known until now.

Bret Wood has had a long-time interest in Gresham and talked to his widow and other family as well.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » October 8th, 2013, 11:11 pm

Centipede makes limited-edition, high quality (read: expensive) versions of books. I'd love to get a "reader" copy of these.

Nightmare Alley

Grindshow

Here's an essay by Gresham reprinted in Nightmare Alley to wet your whistle.

It was only recently that I found out that the Debra Winger character from Shadowlands had been previously married to W. L. Gresham.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » October 9th, 2013, 4:11 am

Yes, they are limited editions and not cheap, but well written, edited, and bound.

Gresham dedicates, "Nightmare Alley", to Joy Davidman, who later married C.S. Lewis.
These new books and other books-in-progress can shed new light that doesn't make Gresham out to be the bad guy, as has been the case in the past.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bob Farmer » October 9th, 2013, 6:11 am

Don't forget his Houdini book and "Monster Midway."

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » October 9th, 2013, 11:43 am

Some of the articles reprinted in, "Grindshow", and this edition of "Nightmare Alley", include selections from, "Monster Midway." Some of those chapters of that book which were originally articles Gresham had written for magazines.
Gresham was always pitching articles about Houdini and other magic & carnival related subjects to magazine editors, with varying success.

The Centipede edition includes the original Rhinehart edition's text, which was later edited/cleaned up for later editions.
Today in a world where books like, "50 Shades....", are bestsellers, it might be hard to believe that the U.S. Postal authorities held up foreign distribution of the novel as it was regarded as pornography by them,back then...which could have been the reason for the more sanitized later editions.

Gresham's lesser known works, such as the novel, "Limbo Tower", and his body-building instruction book, "Book of Strength",(with drawing/illustrations by James Randi) can still be easily found on ebay, etc.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » October 16th, 2013, 9:48 pm

The movie version of "Nightmare Alley" is coming on Turner Classic Movies right now.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » September 18th, 2016, 11:38 pm

Other carny books:

Death on a Ferris Wheel by Aylwin Lee Martin
Cat Man by Edward Hoagland
Rodeo Clown by Bill Neely
Love Doll by Mel Johnson (pseudonym for Barry Malzberg)
The Man Who Was Not With It by Herbert Gold
Joyland by Stephen King
Something Wicked This Way Comes by Ray Bradbury

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Max Maven » September 19th, 2016, 5:09 pm

Don't forget Fredric Brown's Madball.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » September 23rd, 2016, 1:20 pm

Brown did a series of detective novels about Ed and Am Hunter. Ed was a teenager, and Ambrose was his uncle, a carnival worker, who helped him solve crimes. The first one (also Brown's first novel) was The Fabulous Clipjoint was full of carnival material, and it won an Edgar award.

Missing from my list above is the science fiction novel Stranger in a Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein, which contains some carny stuff. Bill Patterson, Heinlein's biographer, suspected that Heinlein used Gresham as source material. But the book is dedicated to Fredric Brown (who wrote SF as well as detective fiction -- the Star Trek episode "Arena" [the one where Kirk fights the Gorn lizard-man] was based on a Brown story), so I suspect that Patterson is mistaken.

Here are some clips from the movie Nightmare Alley.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Don Hendrix » September 23rd, 2016, 9:15 pm

Both books are now showing as "sold out".

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » September 23rd, 2016, 11:55 pm

The Centipede editions are on eBay often, including right now.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » September 26th, 2016, 11:27 pm

Gresham uses the phrase "cold reading" in Nightmare Alley. Is anyone aware of an earlier usage in print? (Background here)

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » September 27th, 2016, 12:57 pm

In previous threads on The Genii Forum, the origins of the word/term, "Geek" and "Cold Reading" have been discussed/explored.

Searching thru books pertaining to carnivals, sideshows, circuses, etc. there is no mention of the term "Geek", and none specifically referring to a "Wild Man" type oddity/attraction. Searches thru The Billboard Magazine, show no references to the term, "Geek" in any articles, news, ads, until Gresham's book comes out.

So far, research has not shown any use of the term, "Cold Reading", as used to to do a (psychic?) reading on someone cold, with no prior info on the person, pre-1946. No magic/mentalism books or magazines, use the phrase until Gresham's book appears.

Mentalism dealers Robert Nelson and Syl Reilly do not make references to the phrase until Gresham's book. Nelson published books/manuscripts on doing readings, but the phrase would have certainly have been used by them, if it had been part of the language/terminology of doing readings pre-1946.
In 1951, Nelson did publish, "The Art of Cold Reading", which is the first time I have found it used in any magic/mentalism/psychic/mystic,
references.

In one letter by Gresham, he mentions bringing/creating into the English language, words/phrases that didn't exist until he put them on paper.

The odds are strongly in favor these being the creation of Gresham. There are no references/evidence showing otherwise to this date.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » September 27th, 2016, 1:11 pm

While Nick Tosches was working on his writing for the 2010 edition of "Nightmare Alley", we discussed these questions which prompted me to pose these questions on The Genii Forum back then. The responses helped the research that you read in my previous post.

If anyone DOES find a reference to the words "Geek" or "Cold Reading",(as used in "Nightmare Alley") prior to 1946, please let us know.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » September 27th, 2016, 2:43 pm

I didn't recall the earlier discussions.

Here is some of what I've sent Diego offline, in case it is of interest to others.

"Geek" appears in Billboard well before Nightmare Alley. The online Oxford English Dictionary has:

geek, n. 2., U.S. slang. A performer at a carnival or circus whose show consists of bizarre or grotesque acts, such as biting the head off a live animal.

1919 Billboard (Cincinnati) 25 Oct. 74/4 (advt.) At Liberty—Snake charmer or geek man; would like to join show going south. 1935 Amer. Mercury June 229 Geek, a degenerate who bites off the heads of chickens in a gory cannibal show. 1948 N.Y. Times Bk. Rev. 7 Mar. 25 An amiable alcoholic who keeps a real live chicken-eating geek in his garden. 1961 Times Lit. Suppl. 27 Jan. 62/2 He‥enslaves a ‘geek’, a dumb sideshow stooge whose daily routine consists of being exhibited in a pit which he has to dig for himself. 1975 R. Davies World of Wonders (1977) i. viii. 130, I was compelled to exhibit Willard as a geek.‥ You lecture for a while on the yearning of the geek for raw flesh. 2001 H. Bone (title) Side show: My life with geeks, freaks & vagabonds in the carny trade.

I recently found a 1914 citation in the NY Clipper.

and Fred Shapiro (a librarian at Yale and author of the Yale Book of Quotations) found a 1912 Billboard cite.

(Yale subscribes to an archive of entertainement magazines, including Billboard, that I can't get into :(

However, this database has partial runs of Billboard, Variety, the NY Dramatic Mirror, and the NY Clipper with loads of show business journalism. It's where I got the NY Clipper citation, but it doesn't seem to include the 1912 Billboard one.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » September 27th, 2016, 3:00 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I didn't recall the earlier discussions.


Okay, I went and found them. And I was a participant. And I said some of the same stuff that's been discussed here.

Forgetfulness? Dementia? I'm lucky I can find my way home in the evening.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » December 28th, 2016, 11:34 pm

Fredric Brown is mentioned above. Haffner Press is compiling all of his works excepting his science fiction. The first volume of his short fiction has been released.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » May 18th, 2018, 12:12 pm

This article, which is full of other good stuff, says that Guillermo del Toro is planning to remake Nightmare Alley.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bob Farmer » May 18th, 2018, 1:00 pm

Bill, that's a great article. years ago, when no one was really following Gresham, I was lucky enough to obtain copies of all of Gresham's books as well Brown's. Brown has a great short story where the murder victim ends up being--the reader.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » May 18th, 2018, 6:17 pm

It was announced a few months ago for plans of the remake. Be interesting what the screenwriter and director do with the story today.
In Martin Scorsese's office, behind his desk is a Nightmare Alley poster. I always thought he would be the person who could do something with it...what he did with Travis Bickle or Jake LaMatta, what could he do with Stanton Carlisle?

Bob, the article is interesting, but shows the author's limited knowledge of Gresham...interesting regardless. He doesn't note or know how Darryl Zanuck changed the ending. (I have seen various scripts with at least 5 different endings of the 1947 movie) While it was originally going to end like the book, Zanuck added an ending with a hope for the better.
(You can almost see Zanuck ranting, "Are they crazy, Ty Power ending up as an alcoholic/geek?! We do Betty Grable musicals, with happy endings here!")

In 1978, it was announced that Barry Gordy was going to produce a remake with Billy Dee Williams and Diahann Carroll. I very briefly talked to Williams back then, who confirmed this, but it never was done. (I could see Carroll as Lilith Ritter, as the femme fatale.)

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bob Farmer » May 18th, 2018, 8:49 pm

Diego, Gresham's biography of Houdini is a great read. There's also, "Monster Midway"http://www.deuceofclubs.com/books/268monstermidway.htm

The movie doesn't tip the trick with the flea (I recall, but I may be wrong).

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » May 18th, 2018, 10:18 pm

Diego wrote:It was announced a few months ago for plans of the remake. Be interesting what the screenwriter and director do with the story today.

I think the story originally came out in Variety, and that was used as a source for a number of other websites and publications. But they all said the same thing; that del Toro was going to do a remake. One site pointed out that del Toro has made similar announcements/plans for a number of other movies which never came to pass (which is par for the course for Hollywood -- how many Houdini bio pics have been announced, but never made?) So don't go buying tickets yet.

Nightmare Alley wouldn't required much in the way of special effects, but del Toro has previously worked with magician/special effects creator Mike Elizalde (Hellboy) -- this movie would be right up his "alley".
In 1978, it was announced that Barry Gordy was going to produce a remake with Billy Dee Williams and Diahann Carroll. I very briefly talked to Williams back then, who confirmed this, but it never was done. (I could see Carroll as Lilith Ritter, as the femme fatale.)

Lando Calrissian as a circus geek? I'd watch that . . .

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » May 18th, 2018, 10:28 pm

Gresham on the Bullet Trick.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » May 19th, 2018, 3:21 am

Bob,
No, the movie does not deal with the fleas or the scale in the office, as the book does. In his Houdini bio, without mentioning "Nightmare Alley", he does tip the scale/flea mystery, saying it was a stunt, Ed Saint,(Beatrice Houdini's companion) used to do.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby performer » May 19th, 2018, 6:05 am

There is a little bit of information about Gresham in the Jay Marshall biography. It seems that Marshall knew him personally and there are descriptions of his interaction with him.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » May 19th, 2018, 12:17 pm

Yes, Jay Marshall knew Gresham well. I remember years ago, talking with Bob Lund, (who also knew Gresham well) that Gresham's life story, needed to be told/written.
He replied, "The person who could do that, would be Jay Marshall."

In his book, Sandy Marshall remembers Gresham who treated him well and not just as some kid.

In his Houdini book, he credits Jay Marshall, Bob Lund, and others.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » February 13th, 2019, 1:09 pm

Here's a nice association copy of Nightmare Alley for auction.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » February 13th, 2019, 5:58 pm

Gresham autographed it to, "The Great Merlini", which was the pen name for Clayton Rawson.
Gresham, Rawson, and John Dickson Carr, were good friends....New York based writers who were
magicians, amateur or otherwise.
Magic was often a theme or sub-theme of the stories they wrote.

In his suicide note/letter to his wife, he asks that certain magic-related items of his,
be given to Rawson and Carr.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » February 17th, 2019, 4:46 pm


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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » February 17th, 2019, 5:26 pm

ReReading the article in BOLD magazine, by Gresham on The Bullet Catch, is an example of the type of, "men's" magazines and other pulp magazines that Gresham wrote mostly for, in his later years.
Those type of magazines, whose covers hyped stories of nazi torturers, dangerous jungle adventures, brutal murders, wanton females gone wild, etc., went away...mostly replaced by the skin magazines, and a new generation of more urban readers.
Reading Gresham's letters to publishers, he is constantly pitching stories, often with magic/occult/carnival themes.
Ironically, in one letter, Gresham acknowledges the life of a free lance writer, constantly needing to pitch/write/sell stories to pay his bills can be a daunting existence...but he added the plus side was that he wasn't some publisher/editor's geek, jumping to their orders.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » December 10th, 2019, 2:34 pm

In his November newsletter, Mike Close mentions that he is doing the magic consulting for del Toro's film of Nightmare Alley, and that filming will start next year in Buffalo and Toronto.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » January 21st, 2021, 11:14 pm

Nightmare Alley is set to be released in December.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » September 15th, 2021, 11:09 pm

Vanity Fair article about the del Toro movie.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » November 30th, 2021, 5:27 pm

Diego refers above to an introduction to Nightmare Alley written by Nick Tosches. Here it is.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » December 1st, 2021, 5:05 am

This introduction that appeared in the 2010 NYRB edition, was actually much longer, but conflicts with the publisher, required that (unfortunately) Nick Tosches' extensive essay be reduced to a few pages. Few today know, or could understand, that the U.S. Postal Inspection Service banned foreign distribution of the first edition, because they labeled it as pornography. Gresham didn't learn this until some time later. Later editions starting with Sun Dial Press, cleaned up the language/expressions for wider distribution.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bob Farmer » December 2nd, 2021, 8:26 am

I've got the 1946 edition published by Rinehart and Company, Inc. as well as Monster Midway, 1953 edition published in Canada by Clarke, Irwin. No idea if these have any value.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » December 2nd, 2021, 2:47 pm

If you look on ebay and elsewhere, you see some asking some high prices for the 1946 1st editions and more for Monster Midway...I've seen those listings for some time, so whether anyone is/will actually paying those prices is to be seen. Perhaps the release of the new movie will generate more interest, while a new movie edition is set to be released with the movie. In a letter, Gresham notes that, ... "sales for Monster Midway tanked at 2,500 copies..." I have not seen any editions since the Canadian one.

But Nightmare Alley, has been kept in print thru the decades, in different editions. His son might still have the copywrite, and has done OK, especially with a new major movie release, movie edition, a short-lived musical in 2010, and the various editions before.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Bill Mullins » December 17th, 2021, 12:55 pm

Nightmare Alley is now in theaters. Review.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » December 18th, 2021, 4:21 am

Should be interesting to read the thoughts of those who have now read the novel, and seen both versions of the movie.

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Re: William Lindsay Gresham - New Editions

Postby Diego » December 21st, 2021, 12:49 am

I went into a movie theater, (the first inside venue I've been in since March/2020) and watched it last Thursday, in a near empty (thank you) theater. It will be also released in January with a black & white version for a more 1940's noir look. I will watch it again, I wanted to detach my viewing from the book and 1947 movie to experience it on it's own and the director's vision of telling a story.
Previous hype about this version was that it wasn't a remake, but adapted directly from the novel. Surprisingly (to me) it did not go down some of the dark paths that Gresham's novel did, and the format/story seemed to follow the 1947, (sans Zanuck's meddling with the ending) movie more than the 1946 book.
In the "they won't even give it a chance" to catch on department: Because of the tepid box office grosses Nightmare Alley and another remake, West Side Story, have done, some have canceled screenings of Nightmare Alley, so they can show Spiderman on more screens...not even letting it play a week before closing. Anyone else seen it so far?


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