The place of Edward Victor in magic history

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Mr. Charming

The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Mr. Charming » August 24th, 2019, 9:47 pm

Edward Victor (RIP) was the actual creator of Tilt and the "Elmsley Count", among many other things. Unfortunately his place in the history of magic isn't recognized as it should. I would feel better if magicians would recognize his work and contributions to the world of magic.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Putting a card in from the side isn't "Tilt", and the Elmsley count isn't done with three cards.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 25th, 2019, 2:12 am

Eleven Card Trick (1951) is an excellent (and now classic) trick CREATED by Edward Victor. "My Rope Routine" (1937) is an ORIGINAL cut and restored rope mystery by Edward Victor but a" three as four count " was described in 1910 by Ellis Stanyon and the Tilt (or "Deepth Illusion" was REALLY created by Dai Vernon (dixit Ed Marlo in his booklet "Tilt!" published in 1962. If you want more details for the Tilt, look for Jon Racherbaumer's article in Sticks and Stones, Vol. 01, no. 10, 1977, "How Deep Is This Illusion?"

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 25th, 2019, 4:04 am

Excerpt from The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley (written by Stephen Minch), Tome 1, 1991, page 26.

"When Mr. Elmsley published his count, he cited Edward Victor's E-Y-E count and a false count devised by Eric de la Mare (see p. 232) as important sources for elements of the sequence (the block pushoff and the under-the-packet return respectively). Earlier sources exist for these ideas: Charles Jordan and Laurie Ireland for the block push-off, and Ellis Stanyon for the under-the-packet return. It was years later that Mr. Elmsley's friend Francis Haxton unearthed a clearly related sleight by Charles Jordan in a 1919 trick, "The Phantom Aces" (ref. 30 Card Mysteries, pp. 37-38). Mr. Jordan's sleight, now known as the Jordan count, though used originally as a displacement only, also concealed the bottom card of a four-card packet. It's similar handling made it perfectly suited for combination with the Elmsley count, as has been amply demonstrated during the past few decades by Edward Mario and others after him."

As you can read, Elmsley quote Edward Victor as a source of inspiration

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 25th, 2019, 5:31 am

On the other hand, Edward Victor described a Convincing Control BEFORE Edward Marlo!!!

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2019, 12:11 am

Has Mr. Charming's account been deleted?

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 26th, 2019, 12:33 am

Those who wish to explore his books *Magic of the Hands will find some history.
Anyone doing E-Y-E or his card control as written?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 26th, 2019, 1:48 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Has Mr. Charming's account been deleted?
Apparently yes.
He made a disparaging remark regarding Michael Close which was quickly deleted and subsequently ...
Richard Kaufman wrote:Mr. Charming has departed the building.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » August 26th, 2019, 6:23 am

Let's take this opportunity to pay tribute to our beloved Big Chief who had the joly good idea to re-publish The Magic of the Hands Trilogy in 1995.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » September 22nd, 2019, 10:13 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:...and the Tilt (or "Deepth Illusion" was REALLY created by Dai Vernon (dixit Ed Marlo in his booklet "Tilt!" published in 1962. If you want more details for the Tilt, look for Jon Racherbaumer's article in Sticks and Stones, Vol. 01, no. 10, 1977, "How Deep Is This Illusion?"

Inserting a card under the top one making believe that the card is going deeper into the deck, appears as well as a method (the first one) of Hofzinser's “Remember and Forget,” written by Ottokar Fischer in "J. N. Hofzinser's Card Conjuring" (1931), p. 90 of the S. H. Sharpe translation.
Apparently, it was a great idea that had several great card magicians independently.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Grippo's Wish » October 22nd, 2019, 8:53 pm

E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

In the "Hugards' Letters to Orville Meyer", in one of them from 1938 Hugard mentions the idea of putting together many pick a card tricks, as if nobody has thought of the idea.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Denis Behr » October 23rd, 2019, 1:53 am

Grippo's Wish wrote:E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... revelation

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Grippo's Wish » October 23rd, 2019, 2:14 pm

Denis Behr wrote:
Grippo's Wish wrote:E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... revelation


Interesting. You may consider adding the reference I mentioned; it's in Gibeciere

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » October 24th, 2019, 3:32 am

It seems that Ed Victor created the impromptu method for "The Magnetic Cards." The effect appeared in "New Era Card Trick" as "Gravity Defied," but not impromptu.
It's about keeping ALL the cards spread stuck on the magician's palm. It is quite interesting being able to do it "impromptuly."
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Philippe Billot » October 24th, 2019, 7:59 am

Paco Nagata wrote:It seems that Ed Victor created the impromptu method for "The Magnetic Cards." The effect appeared in "New Era Card Trick" as "Gravity Defied," but not impromptu.
It's about keeping ALL the cards spread stuck on the magician's palm. It is quite interesting being able to do it "impromptuly."



You can read a premise in The Sphinx, vol. 12, no. 3, May 1913, page 55 but it doesn't use all the deck.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » October 24th, 2019, 9:10 am

Philippe Billot wrote:You can read a premise in The Sphinx, vol. 12, no. 3, May 1913, page 55 but it doesn't use all the deck.

Interesting! Does it credit the idea to someone or it is assumed Annemann's idea?
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Joe Lyons » October 24th, 2019, 9:18 am

Paco Nagata wrote:
Philippe Billot wrote:You can read a premise in The Sphinx, vol. 12, no. 3, May 1913, page 55 but it doesn't use all the deck.

Interesting! Does it credit the idea to someone or it is assumed Annemann's idea?


With respect, you're thinking of the Jinx.

It's attributed to W.W. McWilliams.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » October 24th, 2019, 10:22 am

Ouch!
Sorry and thank you Joe!
Actually I tend to confuse both.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Joe Lyons » October 24th, 2019, 11:21 am

Paco Nagata wrote:Ouch!
Sorry and thank you Joe!
Actually I tend to confuse both.

Me too.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Denis Behr » October 24th, 2019, 11:38 am

Grippo's Wish wrote:
Denis Behr wrote:
Grippo's Wish wrote:E. Victor also apparently created the "Multiple Selections Card Routine": having 8 cards selected and reproduced.

https://www.conjuringcredits.com/doku.p ... revelation


Interesting. You may consider adding the reference I mentioned; it's in Gibeciere

I was looking for it when you mentioned it, but couldn't locate it at a brief glance on the 1938 letters. Did you note down the page?

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby performer » November 1st, 2019, 9:11 am

Paco Nagata wrote:It seems that Ed Victor created the impromptu method for "The Magnetic Cards." The effect appeared in "New Era Card Trick" as "Gravity Defied," but not impromptu.
It's about keeping ALL the cards spread stuck on the magician's palm. It is quite interesting being able to do it "impromptuly."


I have been doing this for decades. Oddly enough never in a performance situation as it can take all day to finish it and I don't want anyone to think I am a mentalist. I use it for photographs. I do tend to do it when having boring conversations with magicians that I am not interested in. I try not to do it at lectures as it may be deemed impolite. However, I admit that I do get sorely tempted.

I once did it in a circus ring in a very ineffective manner. I once did a card act in the circus, in fact probably the only card act in recorded history to be done in a circus, and at the end of the show the performers had to traipse in a giant circle and walk around the perimeter of the ring as a grand finale. The juggler juggled and the elephant just walked. I was sandwiched between the juggler and the elephant and of course didn't stand out very well with such competition. All I could think of to do was walk around with this silly bloody magnetic cards all over my hand hoping to God they wouldn't fall off in the middle of the jaunt.

However I will tell you the most useful thing you can do with the Victor Magnetic Cards. Incidentally you use about half the deck rather than the entire 52 cards. Let us assume that you are an amateur magician who has a desire to perform but you know that wandering up to strangers in the street to do so is a rather daft proposition. Simply sit somewhere in a public place where people are around. Start to make the Magnetic Cards. I would pretend to be reading a book of instructions while you do it. Sooner or later someone will approach you and remark on the matter. You then have an excuse to show them something. If you are any good you can get the whole place around you in a short period. I used to do this sort of thing when I was young and foolish.

Of course I am far too sedate for that sort of thing now.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Paco Nagata » November 1st, 2019, 11:06 am

To be honest I have performed it only for children; I've always consider that adult people may not be very interested in this kind of effect, whereas children seem to enjoy it, specially when they try it (without succeed).
Thank you very much for your advises and for telling about your personal experiences, as always. And, by the way, this is my very first conversation with Mark Lewis. A pleasure.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby performer » November 1st, 2019, 12:49 pm

A pleasure talking to you also. I look forward to reading your book.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby BarryAllen » June 10th, 2021, 9:51 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Those who wish to explore his books *Magic of the Hands will find some history.
Anyone doing E-Y-E or his card control as written?

Yep!

I've been performing E-Y-E since 1979 (when I was 15yo); indeed, exactly as written.

However, going back over 40 years, I've never seen anyone else present it.

I first purchased E-Y-E from Murray's Magic Mart in Blackpool. The instructions were from International Magic - albeit initially written by Ken Brooke, when he worked for Harry Stanley at the Unique Magic Studio. International bought up the rights to Unique's tricks when Harry retired.

The same instructions appeared in Ken Brooke's Magic - the Unique Years.

Around 20 years ago, I was delighted that Martin McMillan found a few sets of the original cards, with the beautiful Alf Cooke backs (I've always preferred Bridge size). Obviously, I snapped them up.

Why then have I performed it for so long? Simply because it gets such a superb reaction. It's a 3 Card Trick, with a novel twist over using 3 normal cards.

Incidentally, the same year, I learnt Elmsley's 4 Card Trick; released by Inzani Henley. That's the other 'packet trick' that I still perform to this day.

When I first learnt these tricks, I truly believed that they were miracles. Fact is, I still do.

As for Edward Victor. The content within The Magic of the Hands series of books is superb. Again, I still use his card, thimble, rope, coins to glass and T & R Cig. paper routine(s) to this day.

Such a shame that Edward Victor's work has never received the credit that it truly deserves. Maybe, because a lot of the material requires study and practice.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 10th, 2021, 10:36 am

I was very pleased with the way Rae Hammond's book "The Magic of Edward Victor's Hands" turned out.
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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Leo Garet » June 10th, 2021, 11:55 am

I haven't done the trick in a long time. No reason, it just dropped out of sight. But it is solid.

I bought mine from Harry Stanley when he was at 14, Frith Street. It cost five shillings, with sixpence extra for postage. I actually thought I'd paid a bit less, but looking through my Unique Catalogue, circa 59/60, there it is on page 11. Above it is "McDonalds's 100 Dollar Routine," same price. Below it is "Chinese Prediction," by Corvelo (Holland). This was three shillings plus sixpence postage.

On page one of the catalogue is the message: "All Our Card Tricks Have The Same Back Design".

The cards were made by Al Cooke in Leeds, as were most of the Unique fakes at that time. Harry Stanley had some kind of deal going with them. I don't recall now whether you could get the cards from Woolworth's, though the Alf Cooke Cards they sold did have the same faces.

I do recall seeing Al Koran on TV doing close-up and he ad a few packs with his photograph as a back design. the faces were Alf Cooke regulars.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Q. Kumber » June 10th, 2021, 1:57 pm

And let's not forget Edward Victor's Bat Trick, now commonly referred to as, "I'll Start Again".

It's the trick with the black paddle and a piece of chalk, recently modernised by Leo Smetsers using a white dry erase paddle and a whiteboard marker and known as the "Turbo Stick".

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby BarryAllen » June 10th, 2021, 2:11 pm

Hi Leo,

Great to hear that E-Y-E is not only still fondly remembered - but has also performed by someone else!

Ken Brooke made a great job of the instructions; they were crystal clear - as was all of his superb written instruction over the years. I remember working my way through the various moves/stages of the effect with no real difficulty, even as a young lad.

Just to clarify, to the best of my knowledge, a few things about the Alf Cooke cards.

The company did indeed supply Woolworth's, under the brand name of New Bond - but the back design was different.

Alf Cooke were bought out by Waddingtons in 1970; but continued with the same back - I think it was called 'Geometric'?

Waddingtons also continued to produce various double face/double back cards for a few years. Thank heaven they did - because when Waddingtons took over Alf Cooke, they adopted the same card stock, finish and front designs/colours as Waddingtons Number 1 packs. These were quite different from the previous Alf Cooke packs.

Were Unique at Brewer Street of Frith Street initially? I remember from listening to Ken's life story on cassette - titled "it's better than digging roads", he mentioned that the Frith Street Studio sustained heavy water damage, after the upstairs 'businesses' (knocking shops) got firebombed for non-payment of protection money! As well as stock getting water damaged, I also believe that the initial manuscript for Dai Venon's Ultimate Card Secrets was lost. I'm not sure whether it was subsequently found, or rewritten.

Enjoy reading the catalogue. Looking at online dealer websites just doesn't have the same appeal, does it. :?

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby BarryAllen » June 10th, 2021, 2:36 pm

Q. Kumber wrote:And let's not forget Edward Victor's Bat Trick, now commonly referred to as, "I'll Start Again".

It's the trick with the black paddle and a piece of chalk, recently modernised by Leo Smetsers using a white dry erase paddle and a whiteboard marker and known as the "Turbo Stick".

I'm not aware of Edward Victor inventing the paddle routine - I'll Start Again? I thought that this routine was the creation of Jimmy Rogers?

To the best of my (ever-fading) memory, the effect outlined by Edward Victor in Magic of the Hands, was that a table knife was moistened and salt poured on - just one spot. It would then fly away, only to return. I wouldn't really consider that the same as the Jimmy Rogers multi-phase effect; unless of course it was released by Edward Victor as a separate trick; or within a publication?

Just to add that also, as far as I am aware, the first release of a wipe-on/off plastic paddle was by Reiss - within their magic sets of the early 1970's. Although it didn't detail the Jimmy Rogers routine (bearing in mind they were aiming at beginners), the idea of such a bat/paddle was on the market long before the Turbo Stick of Leo Smetsers, Richard Sanders, etc.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Q. Kumber » June 10th, 2021, 4:29 pm

Victor's original had the three lines drawn with chalk. Basically all Jimmy Rogers added was the running gag, I'll Start Again.

Victor came up with it in 1917. Up until a few years ago, I too thought that Jimmy Rogers had come up with the trick until I read the Hammond book. By all accounts Jimmy Rogers was a fine performer.

Barry, thank you for mentioning the Reiss version. I didn't know about it.

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby BarryAllen » June 10th, 2021, 5:46 pm

WOW.....talk about never too old to learn something new!

As I've always held a special place in my heart for Edward Victor, I'm even happier to learn that one of my favourite tricks (that I still perform at every close-up event) was born of Edward Victor's parentage!

Was it ever released anywhere in his name?

I didn't learn the value of this trick until the Mid 90's, when my friend and mentor, Joe Riding, put me onto it. He'd initially bought it from the Unique Magic Studio - having watched a dem by Ken Brooke. I remember him saying it was 1964; and he'd gone down to London to watch Preston North End play at Wembley in the F.A.Cup. The things you can remember at times! Joe put a lot of commercial value on this trick. Magicians these days often overlook paddle effects. That's fine if it doesn't fit their style - but I believe they're missing out.

Just as an aside and something I showed to Joe, which he adopted, was that I don't start out by drawing the 3 lines on each side of the bat - as per the instructions. I have 3 lines already chalked on one side. You show both sides blank using the move at the outset; and only THEN add the 3 lines - to (apparently) one side ONLY. It just seems more logical doing it that way - and the appearance of the additional lines during the first to third phases, becomes more magical.

The reason for my admiration for Edward Victor is that my Dad gave me his original Davenports copies of Magic of the Hands; and More Magic of the Hands Parts 1 & 2. There is so much workable material within to practice. Not having much pocket money as a kid (we weren't a rich family), I couldn't afford the Tenyo flim flam, etc. - so I had no alternative other than to start out with everyday props (cards, coins, cig. papers, thimbles, etc.) and learn pure sleight of hand from books. Looking back now, I could never be happier than starting out on that particular road. As Dad taught me, "learn pure sleight of hand; couple it with sleeving; and you truly can perform instant miracles".

As for the plastic Reiss paddle. A blank paddle came with their Magic Sets; with a few ideas using a felt tip AND the well-known Money Bat routine (the coins were held on with small elastic bands). However, Reiss also produced a box of plastic paddles as an additional item:

Magic Act 5 Paddlemania! "Enough to Baffle the Logical Mind"!!
I believe that the kit included 5 paddles - a blank paddle; a 6 + 9 = 15 paddle; a straight to wavy line; a boy vanishing on the Indian Rope; and a jumping spot effect........if memory serves me correctly.

Anyway, I'm rambling now - so I better get to bed!

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Re: The place of Edward Victor in magic history

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 11th, 2021, 6:46 pm

George Schindler created the magic sets for Reiss games. Someone should ask him about the paddles!
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