What are we supposed to do?

[Guest]

Having read through some very interesting posts recently about the piracy issues around certain tricks and dealers, I am always amazed at the knowledge level of so many people here, in reference to magic.

I would guess most of the people who post on here are in the top 10%, if not the top 5% or less, of the magic world, meaning you guys know, or did know, many of the creators of so much magic.

The problem I face as a consumer, is the same the other 90-95% of those who aren't educated in the history of tricks, is I don't know what's a knock-off. I've never seen a trick presented as a "cheaper version to (insert name here)'s trick". I'm simply shown a trick, and if I like it, I buy it. Only to find out later, it's a knock-off.

I have never bought anything from Penguin, nor will I, do to the comment made in a post that said "We sell knock-off's". In fact, the only online dealer I would currently support is Denny.

But, my question to everyone is, is how do the 95% of us who don't know the origins buy smarter? I, like many others, don't wish to buy things that hurt the creators, however, how can we know? Are we supposed to email Max Maven every time we wish to buy a trick?

Looking through the advertising, most of the places in question are plastered right in the middle of all the magic publications, including the Linking Ring. From a consumer stand point, the organizations that we belong to are telling us "check out this place" by allowing the ads to be there. I assume that a magic related publication wouldn't accept advertising from someone who is openly working to hurt the creators of magic.

So how are us "little guys" supposed to do the right thing? (We want to, we just don't have the knowledge many of you do).

Thanks-

[Pete Biro]

Read the reviews. Attend club meetings and discuss the tricks. Hope you have the right information.

Act with your conscience.

[Guest]

Steve, you are right. In the past, magic has been such an arcane pursuit that most of the history was oral, or at least mental, carried around in the heads of the elders of our craft (Jay Marshall springs to mind, with many others). The 'printed record' did not exist, except in fits and starts in various magazines.

There is no official organ, so lately the club magazines, Genii, and a few others have begun to try to capture as complete and truthful a history as they can. Max Maven has been one of magic's stalwart scholars, trying to keep the flow of information correct and accurate, as you noted here.

Magic has grown to be such a large and fast moving field that the anecdotal methods of the past have failed - and nothing yet has arisen to take its place! I am stumped too! With so much cheap technology at hand, we still can't seem to create a way to document the growth of our art and craft in a meaningful way! Perhaps there will be no single answer, since the economics of magic still resemble those of the old west.

Any ideas, anyone?

[Guest]

Pete, that sounds good, but it's not practical for so many people like myself. The magic publications do reviews of the knocked off items. I'm sure I've seen reviews of the cheaper "Pen-thru-anything" and it's never mentioned it was a copy. The local Ring here is comprised almost completely of hobbiest, therefore, we all stand around and look at each other when it comes to credits or knock-off's.

Acting with our conscience doesn't work if you don't know who's or what is a copy. I'm in the I.B.M., but I would venture to say that there are 1000's of people who aren't in any magic organization who don't know either.

My only proposal would be a labeling system where as the effect was approved by some body. Then, we, as consumers, would have no problem detecting the frauds. Maybe a holographic sticker on the front of the packaging?

If I popped into a magic shop, and could clearly tell who's effects had been approved, or better yet, who's hadn't, then I could make a clear choice. If you chose not to have the item approved (which you have the right to), it doesn't mean it's a copy, but it would mean you don't want to be involved in it.

It's the only idea I have on the matter and have been thinking it over for a year or so, trying to work out the system and how it would ever work.

It wouldn't be a policing body or take legal action, it would simply be an "approved by" type label.

It's all I've got. I'm sure someone has a much better idea, so I'm anxious to see some more input.

[Bill Duncan]

Part of the solution is to stop buying things the minute you hear about them. If you read about a trick that excites your interest and you purchase it like a candy bar near the checkout register you're more likely to get burned by a knock off.

Instead, do a web search on Google. Post to a forum you trust like Genii or The Magic Cafe asking some direct questions:

So-And-So Magic Company is selling a product called "Pen-thru-Anybody". Has anyone tried this out? Would you recommed it to someone who's only been in magic for a year and a half?

Are there other versions of this effect? Anyone know the history of the trick?

That should get you near where you'd like to be...

[Adrian Kuiper]

Maybe it's time to revive the (presumably) defunct Magic Dealers Association? If someone is to authorize an effect, it should be an organization of dealers.

Naaahhhhhh.....won't happen!!!

Adrian

[Dave Egleston]

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
Part of the solution is to stop buying things the minute you hear about them. If you read about a trick that excites your interest and you purchase it like a candy bar near the checkout register you're more likely to get burned by a knock off.

If I followed that advice... I wouldn't have been able to buy MAGIC MILK CAPS by Mark Jenest in 1994


That craze was over before I got the trick in the mail

Dave

[Michael Dustman]

Take Pete's advice and check with the reviews in Genii and MAGIC magazines. I know for one that Mike Close does a very thorough job in crediting the originators when doing his reviews. In fact, if he finds out that the trick he is reviewing does not properly credit the originator, he will waste no time pointing that out.

[Guest]

Sure, that's good advice, but I'd be willing to guess 95% of the people who practice magic don't subscribe to either. So will only the people who read Genii,Magic, or visit the forums have a clue?

That's my entire point. The solution seems to be "figure it out for yourself", when human nature dictates the path of least resistance, where as if one has to spend 2 hours researching a trick before they spend $12, then it probably won't happen.

That's simply not a practical approach for people to take who aren't hard core magicians or that deeply concerned about it,which is were that 95% is.

The average magic buyer wants to do the right thing, but if it becomes a chore to buy something, they won't go through the trouble. You creators need to help us quickly know. We'll support you 100%, but it's got to be simple and you can't expect people to buy subscriptions to magazines and wait 2-4 months AFTER a product is released to get a review of it before we buy something.

Al's in DC was probably made off of hobbiest. In fact, Al thanked me one time for being a hobbiest and said that without us, there would be no one to sell to, since professional magicians tend to buy little.

The solution needs to be something that's immediate (not having to wait months), and simple, since the people marketing tricks rely on getting people like us to "have to have" the latest and greatest. Look at all the "New" pages on magic websites. That's what people are dying to buy to beat the next guy to the punch.

With all due respect, step back to the days of being new to magic and not knowing a thing. That's the target market, not guys on this board who have been in magic 40-50 years.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Two small suggestions:

1) Ask yourself if you need to be the first kid on the block to have the product

2) Ask online about the effect and that particular product.

2a) On the caf, you can get a reply from the likes of Pete Biro, Paul Chosse, Bill Palmer... and most of the time within 24 hours. The Genii BBS here is a bit more stately, though probably offers better feedback at a more mature pace.

We now have the technology to help each other. The path of least resistance is only a few keystrokes away. The path to your wallet now has another route through the collective mind that is our community. This is analogous to how part of our vision/mind works. Welcome to the twenty first century.

[Guest]

The only protection we have as 'inventors' Is to stop the 'rip-off' merchants advertising their ill-gotten gains.
You cannot, realistically 'Patent' what you might think is a good effect. To get a Patent you must not have shown anybody the effect or how it works before you apply for a patent.
It may seem like a fantastic effect to you but to everyone else...
And the money you spend on a world wide patent, will you recover your cost's? In 99.9% of cases no. So it's a gamble. You put it out and you are on your own. Until the mag's stand by their word and not just see $$$$$'s or 's from advertisments, forget it. Keep it to yourself. How it used to be.
O.K. churn out the usual rubbish for the 'David blain' wannabe's' if you want but hang on to the good stuff until something changes.

[Guest]

Jonathan, I appreciate what you're saying, and while I personally do that simply by restricting my purchases to dealers I trust, and being an I.B.M. member, and reading forums, I'm probably better informed than most hobbiest. However, you guys are the elite, you know these things.

You have to believe the 15 year old, or even the 35 year old who doesn't know what I.B.M. stands for, never heard of Magic or Genii, and got hooked on magic by finding an online magic shop doesn't even know this is happening.

That's probably 90% of the magic community. You can say "use the tools", but first, you have to tell people there's a problem, and if they don't come to the forums mentioned, or subscribe to magazines they don't even know exist, then they'll never know.

That's my point as well. You have to get the word out to the end consumer who isn't educated. Telling people to educate themselves won't work because they don't know that they don't know.

[Erik Hemming]

Steve-

I empathize, but I think I disagree.

One of the perennial problems with engaging in ANY study, is that there is a de facto--if not de jure--period of being a novice.

In this period, it's difficult or impossible to parse what the issues are, much less gauge where one should stand on them.

Magic is a complicated discipline. It's possible to make it a superficial one--as it is with any discipline. But if one SELF-SELECTS to pursue the discipline and engage in protracted study, one gets to a point where the issues we are discussing present themselves, and force a choice on the student: How do I spend my time? How do I spend my money? How do I spend my life?

In all cases, we hope the answer is, "Wisely." But what that means is entirely a function of the needs of the individual learner.

The information we need is always available if we know how to ask.

Knowing how to ask is a direct result of trying, failing, and continuing the pursuit.

We can try to make this process easier..and those who are able to, frequently profit from the endeavour...but we don't NEED to make the information easier or more accessible.

What we SHOULD do is offer what assistance we can afford to give to anyone who asks.

That has, consistantly, been my experience of this board. When I ask a question, SOMEBODY answers it.

What more do we really need?

So, bluntly put, mistakes are crucial to growth. If we wish the best for our fellows, we don't make things too simple. It's why the pros harp on performing: To get good, you have to be bad, and learn from it.

More to the point: To BUY what is good, you need to buy crap, and learn from it.

Gordo

[Guest]

Originally posted by Gordon Corbin:
The information we need is always available if we know how to ask.

And if we know that there is in fact some information that we need.

I'm with Steve on this. For about 30 years, I was a hobbyist conjuror, on my own, not in a club, never heard of a club, not communicating with other conjurors.

The concept of there being those questions that I ought to ask simply didn't occur to me. (Actually, in those days I bought so little magic that it made scarce any difference. But that's beside the point.)

As Steve phrased it so neatly, telling people to educate themselves won't work because they don't know that they don't know.

Dave

[Guest]

Let's face it, magic is far too accessible. 'Easy come, easy go' becomes the attitude. Availability diminishes respect. Rip-offs and careless performances are only two of the symptoms.

The jewel box has been opened, and the contents scattered to the wind. I, for one, find this very sad.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Graham Nichols:
...The jewel box has been opened, and the contents scattered to the wind. I, for one, find this very sad.

Plenty more gems in the mines folks, and some are kept off the market by those who work the mines.

If you want better magic, you can wait till the inventors put it on the market, or you can deal with them direct. The adulation of an indifferent consumer base is not so satisfying as some imagine. Whatever you do, it's all your choices and your values.

[Guest]

Yeah. The old books, and your old copies of Genii contain many jewels within. The cyber-kiddies can't be botherd reading these which keeps them for those that really care.

I've often found stuff on my old Geniis and thought "Wow. That was worth the price of subscription alone" (don't tell Richard). :)

[Guest]

The jewel box has been opened, and the contents scattered to the wind. I, for one, find this very sad.

Are you certain it wasn't Pandoras box that was opened?

Mike

[Guest]

This has been a very 'touchy' subject on Genii -- some members have vanished because of their opinions.
Let's face it -- the MDA is helpless, just too many rip-off artists, and it's getting worse. BEWARE from whom you buy, and there are some BIGGIES ripping off ideas from guys who need the $$$. Sadly, the world has become an 'i don't give a darn' place, and some really don't care what they have to do to make a buck!
:whack:

[Guest]

I find that I'm dealing directly with the individual, if possible. I bought Martin Lewis' DVD's from Martin, I bought some silk effects from Gen Grant, etc. I feel better and I think they appreciate making a little more on the purchase than they would wholesaling to someone else.

I try to buy books from individuals, too - when possible. I also try to buy from Guys like H&R, Bradbury, Ron Allesi - folks in business for themselves with an interest in/knowledge of the art!

There are great dealers too, and I support those who support me as a customer and magic as an art!

I think that's all we can do right now! --Asrah

[Richard Kaufman]

I've cleaned up this thread, deleted Colin Cambell's ranting, and deleted the posts that responded to his ranting (with apologies to those whose posts were removed, but they referred to Collin's posts that are now gone).

There's something else going on with Linking Lifesavers that we don't know--I think anyone can see that. Some other facts. That discussion is over for now.

That aside, the basic question of this thread is, what can you do?

The answer is, don't look to the publishers of magazines to create new law: that's illegal. The law of the land is the law that stands, and that law does not grant protection for magic tricks.

There will be no "special" law in the world of magic. With the arrival of the Internet, what was before a cottage business with Tannen's and various other dealers knocking off items right and left has now become an open part of doing business.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW ABOUT ANY OF THIS, AND IT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR OVER 100 YEARS, most likely since the second magic dealer opened his shop to compete with the first dealer.

The only difference now is in the visibility of the people who are doing the copying. You cannot legally call it a "ripoff" because the law simply does not recognize a trick as intellectual property that you can own. You can't have something stolen from you that you do not legally "own" (however you wish to define that).

Do I think it's fair? No.

Is there anything I can do about it? No.

I publish a magazine that must have advertising to survive (Genii is lucky to break even--some years it doesn't). I do not have the luxury of turning down advertising because person A is selling a copy of person B's trick. I simply don't have enough subscribers to do that. And, more importantly, I cannot police every single item sold by every single dealer who advertises in Genii. I am not a judge and jury. I have neither the time, the resources, nor the legal authority to tell people what they can and cannot manufacture, or what they can and cannot sell, or how much they can sell things for. Try to imagine the publishers and editors of magazines like Time, Newsweek, or ANY other magazine interfering in the businesses of their advertisers. IT'S AGAINST THE LAW.

The only real power is the power of the consumer. Vote with your money. If you buy something for a few bucks less from a discounter instead of your local dealer, then you are helping to put your local dealer out of business to save a few dollars.

If you buy a copy of an item rather than the original, then you are helping to stiffle creativity in our field because creative people will simply give up. Why bother putting out new items if someone else is going to copy it and sell it for less, depriving you of sales?

And here's the real rub: magicians are cheap. This is the dirty secret of the magic world. If they can save two bucks they'll buy something elsewhere. And "elsewhere" in this case means a discounter or dealer who sells copies.

And I'm not even talking about all the bastards who REALLY are breaking the law by illegally copying videos, DVDs, and books that are in fact protected by copyright.

There's no point in getting hysterical about it. No point in yelling, screaming, and pointing fingers. There is only ONE way to compete in this new world, and that is by making customers aware of your strengths as a manufacturer, and making customers aware of the weaknesses of the people who copy your products or discount everything within an inch of its life. You have to give customers a reason to buy your product from YOU.

It's not a pleasant time to do business in magic, but this is the world as it is now and it's not going to change.

So, are we going to have a real discussion?

[Jonathan Townsend]

A few suggestions for what we can do...sure

Spend some time and money on the basics of this craft. This includes the older basic texts in the field... there is a list around here somewhere. Highlights include the Robert-Houdin book, The Downs book, Greater Magic, Stars of Magic, The Tarbell Course... and let's add the Hofzinser, Germaine, Leipzig.... right... the greats.

Let's discuss how to integrate the character of a performer into the magical effects. Our market can offer stuff... the performance has to come from the performer interacting with the setting. Lots of very personal how to there. The principles are what they are, however the applications are different for each performer and for each venue. The right answers are the ones that work for you. :)

We can discuss ideas in ways the encourage all who read and participate.

We can open up and support a market which offers products tailored to the performer/character. Sure there can be generic products and resources. These are great to try out and work from. The next step is making the materials which suit the performer. We can take that step together after we understand that each of us will be walking their own path.

Thanks to the internet we can read about what some are exploring and where some have found challenges or problems.

Here is my first question to this larger market. What do you look for when you review magic advertisements?

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
What do you look for when you review magic advertisements?

I pay very little attention to advertisements. I rarely will buy a magic trick -- my money generally goes towards books and occasionally videos. I tend to make my purchases based on a few criteria:

1. The subject matter is interesting to me.
2. The book/video is from a person whose work has impressed me in the past (whether from previous books/videos, or from a performance that I've seen).
3. The recommendation of people that I trust (either people I know personally, or a trusted reviewer in a magazine such as Genii).

This seems to weed out a lot of crap. I can't remember the last time I was disappointed with a purchase.

-Jim

[Pete Biro]

I look to ads for the described effect. If it is something that fits what I do I get it. If the method sucks I try to create a new way... my way.

If someone shows me how a trick works and I can go home and do it (latest was Torched and Restored) I don't, until I find the source and buy it.

I currently do a very popular trick but totally changed the method to suit my way.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Adrian Kuiper:
Maybe it's time to revive the (presumably) defunct Magic Dealers Association? If someone is to authorize an effect, it should be an organization of dealers.

Naaahhhhhh.....won't happen!!!

Adrian

The MDA was an admirable idea gone sour. Many ofit's members were prominent in selling knockoffs
But with the proliferation of online dealers, who spring up and disappear, like 24 hour diseases.The task becomes even mpre difficult
I don't think we can stop it we may be able to slow it down
from
Ford

[Jacky Kahan]

Richard and Jonathan, thank you for sharing your thoughts, this is great!
This is a subject that is really important and you both made it very clear.

I just wanted to add that what is really missing in the magicworld is : Education, with this I mean, if you are in the magic world, a professional or a amateur, and if you are really passionate by your "craft" or "Hobby", you should show respect to YOUR "ART" by not copying (tapes/dvd's/books) and buying original .

SO i really think we owe our "art" respect by being "eductated". What i mean is for instance when a magician is performing a routine, the least he can do is buy the book where it's published or purchase the original gimmick/lecture note and so on ... this is how you show respect.

With the technology today it's so easy to find information, and it's so easy to "share"... but it makes more harm than good because of lack of "education"...

anyway, that's my thoughts...

Jacky
www.magicbooks.be

[Glenn Bishop]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:

The only real power is the power of the consumer. Vote with your money. If you buy something for a few bucks less from a discounter instead of your local dealer, then you are helping to put your local dealer out of business to save a few dollars.

And here's the real rub: magicians are cheap. This is the dirty secret of the magic world. If they can save two bucks they'll buy something elsewhere. And "elsewhere" in this case means a discounter or dealer who sells copies.

I feel that because of this - blink your eyes and many of the magic shops will be gone.

This is one of the small reasons that my fathers magic shop closed in Riverside IL. It was called Bishop's magic and he was in business for about 15 years. Owned by the late Billy Bishop.

But getting back to stealing.

Another form of stealing is taking another mans effect or trick and putting it in your act. And another form is taking another mans trick or effect and then publish it in a book - mag - video - or DVD and then claim it as their own.

There are some magicians in the magic sub culture that I would call opportunists. In other words they take advantage of a opportunity to put something out that they do not own. They find an idea learn it and then race to get it to the magic market before the inventor.

As in my fathers rope tie routine and my shell game ending! Both ideas have been taken and claimed by others.

There may be little that one can do about this. Many say that imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery but it can be darn annoying.

I also find flattery like perfume, it is nice to smell but not a good idea to swallow it!

[Guest]

With all due respect to my elders who have posted the opinion of "educate yourself" on this thread, I must say this is the total wrong mentality to ensure anything actually be done about the issue.

Before making a suggestion like that, you MUST know the demographics of the market. If 90% of the market don't visit forums, don't search for information on magic on the internet, then you're beating a dead horse.

Would it be great if everyone went to a magic shop (brick and mortar), saw a trick demo'd, came home, spent 2 hours on the internet making sure it wasn't a knock off, and then got back in the car, on the train, or in a cab, went back to the magic shop, and bought that $12 trick.

Please, give me a break. That's so unrealistic to expect from anyone. The target market doesn't even know knock offs are an issue.

If I want to buy a music CD, I don't go to the music store, look at the CD, come home, research to see if the people are above board who created the CD, and then go back to the store and buy the CD.

You HAVE to acknowledge that there are less than 500 people (just guessing) who are willing to do that in a market that's well over 500,000 worldwide? If you don't acknowledge how the 450,000 "think" about magic, and give them an easy way to know there are knock offs and which one's are knock offs, it's never going to get better.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Steve Shepherd:
...You HAVE to acknowledge that there are less than 500 people (just guessing) who are willing to do that in a market that's well over 500,000 worldwide? If you don't acknowledge how the 450,000 "think" about magic, and give them an easy way to know there are knock offs and which one's are knock offs, it's never going to get better.

Have you noticed the amount of material surfacing from magicians long gone? Milt Kort, Al Baker, John Ramsay... all gone. Perhaps we will see the works of Hofzinser make available soon. Perhaps also some of the works of others... all long gone.

There may be a parting of the ways happening here. The market fills with nostalgia, while the cutting edge of the craft seeks its fortune among those willing to trade value for the entertainment as audiences and/or honor among wizards. The magician as stereotyped may become an item of nostalgia.

For better and worse it will get better by simple attrition. Those of us who do invest our energies in creating works may well take the market for these new items outside the market where 500,000 others can buy knock-offs and out dated material.

I hope we can avoid a dark age in this craft. We were once at the leading edge of technology and learnings in our society. The wizard in his cloak, with his seeing orb was high tech in his time. We can move forward. We can become techo-mages. Our grimoires can be kept on PDAs. Our notes for future past can be sent via email.

[Guest]

I read through a great amount of the responses on this site: http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/vie ... hp?t=65517 submitted by Adam McDivitt and I found that an overwhelming amount of people ARE getting it. It is wrong to steal ideas from others and it also seems that most of what MM makes is inferior anyway, so another reason not to support their actions or similar actions by others of their ilk.

Those that support the rampant theft of original ideas just don't see the real harm this is causing. It is so deep and wide it is difficult to express it in this forum. It is not a matter of economics as some have said; even though they are providing a cheaper alternative (competition is good, but please understand this is NOT competition-it is theft).

You can certainly go to a dollar store and by a brass lock for $1.00 that looks like a Master lock but don't be surprised when that lock rusts or breaks or locks-up and can't be opened. Believe me this happens. Forks bend easily because they are using cheap materials; you get what you pay for and there is no middle road to this. But again, this isn't even worth consideration. It's the MORAL aspect. The originator/creator or the owner of an effect has a right to produce his product without fear of being ripped off simply because he can not afford a patent. Patents are great of you are selling to the Wal-Marts of the world and are making 10's of thousands of dollars on an item, but this is MAGIC guys..Get it! Our industry should be self-policing and it has been for many years. It is incumbent on the dealers, once they know they are selling a rip-off to stop selling it; it is incumbent on the performer/end-user to support original thought and to spend their money with those that support original thought.

Magic creating has afforded a modest living to those that supply all of us with their original ideas, those same ideas that make us look great in front of our audiences. Thats part of the payback we owe these creators; they have given us more than just a trick. To thank them by buying a knock-off is a real slap in the face. And how can they afford to continue to produce if they are not rewarded? What have Magic Makers and others like them made that is THEIR creation? What have THEY given back to the Magic community? Cheaper tricks (?). Big deal! Where will you get the next Impossible Penetration; The Die-Cipher; the Pen Thru Anything, Sidekick, Gumball Machine, Ladder Suspension, Floating Table et al, if the creator's are not protected? MM and other's like them CAN'T dream these things up or they would be doing it NOW, saving themselves from this type of ridicule and disdain.

When was the last time you saw a new effect from John Cornelius? His entire, read this again, his ENTIRE line has been ripped off. He is essentially out of business. He has a tremendous list of new ideas but he can't bring himself to put them out because he will be instantly ripped off. He has brought us years, over 30 years of incredible Magic. He has found principles NEW to Magic and has shared them gratefully with all of us, but now, his wonderful creations sit on his drawing board because many of our brethren are supporting the theft of his ideas. How many others, thinking back, have we lost to this. Where is Steve Dusheck, the originator of so many wonderful effects? He has not stopped dreaming, he is selling his wares underground to a chosen few, protecting them from the thieves. But it is all our loss to have these great thinkers go underground or stop all together because someone wants a cheap trick or is making a buck off their sweat and toil. It really has to stop and it begins with each and every one of us in this Magic BROTHERHOOD-NOW. Is this how you would treat someone in your family? We are all in a Magic family, whether we believe it or not. We need to help each other, not pull against those that have given us so much. We should not enrich those that are stealing our dreams those that are stealing our enjoyment, that are forcing some of us to 'throw in the towel'. Really look at what we stand to loose and what we are allowing to fester. This is an evil creeping weed that will someday destroy our Magical garden if we are not careful. Think about it and reread this. I think it makes sense.

Sincerely,
George Robinson Jr.
Viking Mfg./Collectors' Workshop

[Guest]

Hi everyone,

I have read all the posting with interest and let all you know that I do not buy "ripp-off" items or support that.
There is only one thing that I think everyone is missing here what is in human thinking. (correct me if I am wrong)
In human nature we do not want to pay a higher price then your friend/neighbour/colleagues/etc for the same item!
If it is a bike, television, car, house, etc. You are realy disapointed, even angry when you realise you have payed to much for the item!

Most of the people are going back and return the item or want refunds!
This is excactly also happening in the Magic community.
Through digital revolution the magician, amateur or proffesional finds more and more way's to buy that effect he/she likes to have at that time.
Offcourse the magician likes to have it also in the fastest way because he do not wants to wait.
(I can say that everyone who read this have done this also. for example; If you have to decide to buy that special type televison, you want it the same day. If the store on the corner does not have it, you go 10 streets further or even to an other state because you want to have it before the evening! other example; if you buy a new car, mostly you have to wait a couple of weeks/months. You are realy disapointed when you get the call that it takes longer then was told! etc. etc.)

The same with magic,...when you noticed or hear about THAT SPECIAL EFFECT WHAT IS GOING YOU TO MAKE A STAR you want that effect have in the fasted way and offcourse with discount!
What do you do,..you call your local shop and get the answer; "sorry sir,...we are waiting a couple of weeks allready for that effect, I can give you a call"
Are we waiting? Nope,.....we make calls, look on internet till we found that item and buy it.

Now here comes the problem,....how do I know that the "nice seller from the overseas magicshop" do not sell me the original? I do not know.
Because of the tax and for example "low Dollar" it can be interesting to buy in other country even with the high shippingcosts.
So the "cheap price" does not automaticly say that it is not the original item. There are also magic shops who can live with a lower fee because he want to sell "much" instead of "couple".

Now something extra mentioned here;....I have also bought lots of items in other country's and sometimes I find out a couple of weeks later that I did not have bought the original or even worser I have got an allready broken (sometimes even glue-ed item!!) "Who cares,..it is a stupid overseas costumer"!

Offcourse I have learned and NEVER shall buy at that shop again but is it fair? NO.
When I buy an other product I get 1 or 2 year waranty, with most of the magic stuff,...you do not because "you know the secret!"

I have found a few hardworking inventors and dealers who stand for there bussiness and when there is something wrong, we allway's find a way to solve the problem.
I do not care if I pay a couple of Dollars more then my colleagues because it earns it back in other way's.
At a good (local) magic shop you can see, feel and try the item you like to have so you can find out if it "works for you or not" sometimes is the "no palming required item" still a difficult or not common handling that you do not like or can do. With that information you buy or do not buy that effect and sometimes you call the inventor if it is possible to change the item so it works for you!


But I can understand that magicians wants to get the lowest price for an item. In a topic before there was mentioned that magicians where cheap. I say; "Only Magicians?" no, every person on this world is cheap because it is in human nature!!

Can we do something about it? No,...as far there are magic shops who like's to stunt with prices, the HUNT for a "good price" shall allways excist!
(including with the "immitations" of that effect)

Richard Stooker
The Netherlands


Just a thought;

***As far for the imitations,..the inventor can sell it by his self (Like Richard Gerlitz, etc) and/or work with a signed and numbered certificate. This makes it harder for the immitator to sell the copied items.****


Sory for my english because english is not my mother tonque,...I hope everyone understand my thoughts. :confused:

[JohnKennedy]

This is nothing that should concern the buyer. The manufacturer must deal with any manufacturing problems.
JK

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by John Kennedy:
This is nothing that should concern the buyer. The manufacturer must deal with any manufacturing problems.
JK

Which manufacturer? The one you want making your stuff, or the copyists who start selling it on their own?