Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

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Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 26th, 2004, 2:20 pm

Richard:

Can you put your finger on the legal docket re: the eBay/Busby lawsuit I faxed to you a year or so ago? I filed my copy somewhere, but not exactly sure where right now as I was cleaning up my eBay/Busby file a few months ago (thought all was taken care of)!

If you can find it, those interested may be able to pursue the case a bit more as the docket is open to the public.

I will see if my contacts can find more out on this new development, since it was my understanding that Jeff would not be heard from again this way on eBay.

Terry

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 26th, 2004, 2:38 pm

Glenn:

As Brad posted earlier, the eBay response should include the e-mail addres of the VeRO participant who is challenging your listing. Can you inform us on this?

Jeff has not listed himself (at least under the name he listed previously) with eBay as a Vero participant, so the eBay response is all the we can look at right now.

Can't say much more as you never know who is lurking!

Terry

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 26th, 2004, 4:26 pm

Someone has posted an interesting item on eBay. Check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 6121434959

Terry

Guest

Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Guest » September 26th, 2004, 7:29 pm

I outlined my experience with the wonderful buzzBee on my about page on ebay.
Anyone interested can email me thru the forum
Kim

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Glenn Farrington
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Glenn Farrington » September 26th, 2004, 7:38 pm

I claim rights on everything in the universe except for anything Busby owns, General Motors and anything Disney related (never piss off the devil). nyah...nyah...nyah
Comedy's Easy...Dying Sucks.

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Glenn Farrington
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Glenn Farrington » September 26th, 2004, 7:42 pm

Nice link to that Ebay item Terry...hmmm...it says the seller is from Ohio...hmmmmmm...aren't you from ohio....hmmmmm.

It's a small...small...world!
Comedy's Easy...Dying Sucks.

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Glenn Farrington
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Glenn Farrington » September 26th, 2004, 7:45 pm

My apologies to anyone that now has the "It's a small world" song stuck in their head.

I can't seem to get it out of mine. Thank god for all the other voices in my head that are drowning it out....aaaahhhhhhhh.
Comedy's Easy...Dying Sucks.

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Pete Biro
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Pete Biro » September 26th, 2004, 9:04 pm

I just bid 10 cents, but some rotten bugger has outbid me... Gads this is going to be expensive.
Stay tooned.

Guest

Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Guest » September 26th, 2004, 9:25 pm

A set of Fox cups made by Busby sold on the

Martinka Auction which closed tonight. It went

for $595.00, they were supposed to be mint.....

Mike

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magicam
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby magicam » September 26th, 2004, 9:43 pm

Maybe the fact that the Martinka sale could not be stopped will tell Ebay about who really has what rights?

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magicam
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby magicam » September 26th, 2004, 10:00 pm

On second thought, and kinda related to Pete Biro's comments re selling a used GM car, maybe Ebay should be hit with this logic:

Ask Ebay if it allows the sale of used, trademarked, copyrighted or patented goods such as an original Disney video, an authorized CD of Led Zeppelin, a Mercedes Benz, an original Microsoft program (like Word or Excel), a copy of a James Michener book, etc. Of course, the answer will be "yes."

Then ask Ebay if they would yank one of those kinds of items for sale if, say, Disney, wrote to them and told them that the seller had no right to privately sell a used, legal video of Cinderella. Well, they should answer, "no." (how could they possibly answer "yes"? - three quarters of the items for sale on Ebay would have to be yanked!)

Then ask them why a seller can't sell a Paul Fox set of cups and balls, assuming it's a real Paul Fox set. Then offer the only possible reason (assuming the questions and answers play out as suggested above) how Ebay could prohibit a seller from selling this set of cups and balls: the seller signed an agreement prohibiting resale without Busby's permission. Then ask Ebay to ask Mr. Busby to produce a copy of this agreement signed by the person selling the item on Ebay.

Although I'm ignorant about copyright law and such, my guess is that the "fair use" doctrine permits the legitimate owner of a copyrighted or patented item, etc., to resell the item.

Also, the prohibition of legitimate resale seems to conflict with one of the basic constitutional rights of private property ownership: the right of alienation - that is, the right to convey (i.e., sell) one's own property. In real property law, courts frown heavily on agreements which restrict the ability of one to freely "alienate" and/or use his or her property. I see no reason why that principal would not apply to personal property.

Just a thought.

Jim Riser
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Jim Riser » September 26th, 2004, 10:04 pm

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
I just bid 10 cents, but some rotten bugger has outbid me... Gads this is going to be expensive.
Ahem :D

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Pete Biro
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Pete Biro » September 26th, 2004, 10:11 pm

Magicam: You worded that so well, why don't you just send it in to ebay?
Stay tooned.

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Glenn Farrington
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Glenn Farrington » September 27th, 2004, 1:00 am

eeghads! I just bid 25 cents and Riser still outbid me. I hate bidding against someone with deep pockets.
Comedy's Easy...Dying Sucks.

Jim Riser
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Jim Riser » September 27th, 2004, 1:15 am

Originally posted by Glenn Farrington:
eeghads! I just bid 25 cents and Riser still outbid me. I hate bidding against someone with deep pockets.
Glenn;
I have another set of Busby items just like are being sold. I'm merely "trying to protect my investment" (a technique that was discussed in another thread). :eek:
Jim

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magicam
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby magicam » September 27th, 2004, 2:07 am

Some investment, Jim...

So Glenn, what's the market gonig to do today?

Clay

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 27th, 2004, 6:18 am

Regarding the eBay Busby Order Form and Envelope auction, you could have all saved yourselves a lot of mental pain and anguish (and possibly money) if you would have simply used the eBay "Buy Now" option which was set at only $1,000!

Unfortunately, once the first bid was made the option disappeared, and now who knows what the bidding may end at!

Terry

Robert Allen
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Robert Allen » September 27th, 2004, 1:49 pm

It's times like this when I wish I had carefully preserved all my Busby receipts and unused order forms and envelops in a sealed, nitrogen filled, document safe. Now look at me, stuck with a worthless investment...

Guest

Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Guest » September 27th, 2004, 6:08 pm

Terry,

It was actually my auction that was cancelled for Fox's Miracle Gimmick. Here's the email I received from ebay.

" **PLEASE READ THIS IMPORTANT EMAIL REGARDING YOUR LISTING(S)**

We would like to let you know that we removed your listing:


2270419419 Paul Fox's Miracle Gimmick


because a copyright rights owner notified us, under penalty of perjury,
that your listing offers an unauthorized copy of copyrighted material.

We have credited any associated fees to your account. We have also
notified the bidders that the listing was removed, and that they are not
obligated to complete the transaction.

If you relist this or any other similar items on eBay, your account
likely will be suspended.

If you believe your listing was ended in error, or have questions
regarding the removal of this listing, please contact the copyright rights
owner directly at:

Jeff Busby Magic, Inc.
ipcomplaints@imbris.net

eBay is available to answer questions, but since it is the copyright
rights owner that requested the removal of your listings, we encourage
you to contact them first.

For more information on the VeRO Program, and a list of rights owner
About Me pages, please visit:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/v ... sting.html
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,

Customer Support (Trust and Safety Department)
eBay Inc "

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 27th, 2004, 7:07 pm

Mark:

Thanks for setting me straight on the issue. Now that I have reread the posts I see that I somehow got confused about who the seller was.

I am surprised that Jeff has stepped back in like this after the battle with eBay last year.

I will send you an e-mail to discuss my thoughts at this point.

Terry

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magicam
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby magicam » September 27th, 2004, 8:06 pm

Mark and Terry:

Please read my comments about 7 or so posts ahead of yours. Interesting to read the specific language from Ebay's notice to Mark, viz:
"... because a copyright rights owner notified us, under penalty of perjury, that your listing offers an unauthorized copy of copyrighted material."

This language answers quite a few of my questions, and makes me think I was barking up the wrong tree. But the question I now have is whether or not there is some conclusive identifying mark which distinguishes the genuine product from an unauthorized copy. If there is an identifying mark, then the purported copyright owner should be required to disclose it and then the seller can prove to Ebay whether or not hes selling the real deal (and if its proven a couple of times that the sellers are selling the real thing, or if the purported copyright owner refuses to disclose such identifying mark(s), do you think Ebay will continue to act on such owners protests much longer?). If there is not an identifying mark, then Ebay should be prodded to ask people like Jeff Busby how the hell he can tell its a fake by a mere 72 dpi photograph.

Of course, this still begs the question of why Ebay wont ask the likes of Busby to prove hes the copyright holder.

Clay

Brad Henderson
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Brad Henderson » September 27th, 2004, 8:23 pm

At one point Busby had a statement on his "about me" page to the effect that anything not sold through him was a copy. I know, it's bizarre, but that was the basic logic behind it.

He also said he didn't have time to examine each case, so he had the right to pull any and every auction.

I would contact ebay and tell them that this matter was brought to their attention last year, and as a result of a lawsuit brought by ebay, this Vero rights owner was pulled from the program. Somehow he has managed to re-file and that they should be aware of this, lest they need undergo a costly legal battle again.

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 27th, 2004, 8:35 pm

Originally posted by Glenn Farrington:
Nice link to that Ebay item Terry...hmmm...it says the seller is from Ohio...hmmmmmm...aren't you from ohio....hmmmmm.

It's a small...small...world!
Yes, it is a small, small world. But as Steven Wright says, "I wouldn't want to paint it!"

But back to the matter at hand.... the order form and envelope are hot items. Look at the bid history!

Terry

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 29th, 2004, 4:05 pm

There is now a Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick up for bid on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 98794&rd=1

We'll now see if Jeff Busby has the boldness and daring (audacity) to attempt to shut it down as he did the other.

Terry

Andy Hurst
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Andy Hurst » September 29th, 2004, 6:52 pm

I can't believe Busby is back up to his ebay tricks again. I've made my thoughts on Busby clear before, and he liked my comment so much he wrote about it in one of his newsletters.

But Kaufman didn't act alone. He was supported by a number of people spouting hatred, violence and death on his forum. For instance, a fellow named Andy Hurst, wrote:
"I hate Busby and I hope he dies soon."
In the same email he rants about the 'busby-bashing' that occurs on Internet forums and claims...

I hardly need to remind anyone reproducing my material about this: They are deliberately breaking the law. One particular, peculiar, "Forum Fuhrer" tries to cover his misdeeds with spittle-ridden "fair use" shrieks. However, it's typical -- indicative of how these characters operate.
He assumes that no one on ebay is selling a used copy of one of his products and that anything for sale must be a knock off.

I got one of those nasty 'you are breaking copyright' emails and an auction pulled when I tried selling a used copy of an Osterlind book that he published.

I don't know about you, but I do all I can to be ethical when it comes to magic credits, rights, copyrights and the like. And yet this looney toon says I must be a crook because I bought a book he published and later put it on ebay?

I stand by the original thing I said about him.

Andy.
http://www.foocan.com

Guest

Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Guest » September 29th, 2004, 7:52 pm

Just curious, what happened after the following thread last year as I thought Jeff was on the deathbed ?
"Just wondering how many got the busyby email today? 7 pages telling about how sick he was/is, how everyone is against him ( except the ones that know the "truth" ), and a picture of him in an electric scooter.
Was not the sort of thing I wanted to see before my morning coffee.
{ I really am not sure how much I could write here without offending anyone,so I kept it pretty vague.) [[Whack]]"

Robert Allen
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Robert Allen » September 29th, 2004, 8:11 pm

Maybe it's like in that Monty Python movie...

"Well, I got better..."

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Marco Pusterla
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Marco Pusterla » September 30th, 2004, 12:57 am

Hi!
I was wondering (I'm no expert about US copyright law... :confused: ) what is Busby's stance towards magic dealers who sell a downloadable version of the "Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick":

Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick

Is he going to sue them? After all, they are using the "Paul Fox" name, don't they?

I'm confused... :confused: :confused: :confused:

----
Marco Pusterla - http://www.mpmagic.co.uk
Marco Pusterla - http://www.mpmagic.com

Ye Olde Magic Mag: magic history and collecting magazine.

Scott Fridinger
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Scott Fridinger » September 30th, 2004, 8:04 am

Originally posted by Magicam:
an original Microsoft program (like Word or Excel),
Acutually, you don't have the right to resell a Microsoft Product, technically you are "leasing" the software. Oh well

Scott

John LeBlanc
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby John LeBlanc » September 30th, 2004, 8:37 am

Originally posted by Marco Pusterla:
Is he going to sue them? After all, they are using the "Paul Fox" name, don't they?
Apparently there are still some theaters in which he is unwilling to yell "fire!"


I'm confused... :confused: :confused: :confused:
Understandable.

John LeBlanc

Robert Allen
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Robert Allen » September 30th, 2004, 9:25 am

Complain if you want about Busby, but in this particular case Ebay is to blame for two reasons:

1) their record keeping is so inadequate they apparently don't realize (or care) that they investigated this less than a year ago and dismissed Busbys claims.

2) they basically screw anyone on command with no requirements for legal demonstration of holding a copyright.

Bob Farmer
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Bob Farmer » September 30th, 2004, 10:54 am

The lawyer at eBay who sued Busby is Michael Richter richter@ebay.com

Contact him directly.

Steve Mills
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Steve Mills » September 30th, 2004, 3:39 pm

I use eBay a good bit, but I keep the following on the wall:

"eBay/PayPal Doesn't Care"

It's as basic as "debits on the left - credits on the right"

sam
I'm a living example that if you speak softly, you will get hit by a big stick.

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » September 30th, 2004, 5:05 pm

282 hits as of this writing on the Busby Order Form and Envelope on eBay and a measly $1.04 high bid!

I guess I know what the favorite pastime is lately for quite a few magicians!

Will it survive over the next 2 days and 23 hours?

Terry

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magicam
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby magicam » September 30th, 2004, 5:40 pm

Scott Fridinger wrote:

Acutually, you don't have the right to resell a Microsoft Product, technically you are "leasing" the software. Oh well

So if I buy a retail copy of MS Word, and I decide I don't want it, are you saying I can't sell it, box and all, to my neighbor? Say it ain't so!

The same goes for a situation where I sell my computer with all the original programs on it. I believe that the purchaser of that computer and all those programs has the legal right to use those programs (I'm assuming I haven't illegally copied the programs and really selling the copies, etc - if I sold the computer, I'd give the original CD-ROM's to the purchaser.

Maybe you're correct, Scott, but if so, then that means that every used computer sold on Ebay is being sold illegally if it has MS and similar programs on it. That's hard to believe.

Clay

Robert Allen
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Robert Allen » September 30th, 2004, 7:12 pm

Clay, just because a lot of people do something doesn't mean it's legal, and just because they're not prosecuted doesn't mean that you or I wouldn't be, if the circumstances were right. Laws related to software (including computer games) can be very scummy and largely do whatever they want, as long as it's written down, despite that fact that no one I've known has read and understood the shrinkwrap agreements or the EULA agreements they *must* sign if they want to install software they've purchased. That is one reason why people were so angry at M$ - they monopolized the business then set restrictive business models which left little recourse for the consumer.

FWIW, is it not the case that the "leasing" model from M$ is a fairly recent change, maybe for Windows 2000 or XP and forward?

John LeBlanc
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby John LeBlanc » September 30th, 2004, 7:29 pm

Originally posted by Magicam:
I believe that the purchaser of that computer and all those programs has the legal right to use those programs (I'm assuming I haven't illegally copied the programs and really selling the copies, etc - if I sold the computer, I'd give the original CD-ROM's to the purchaser.
What you believe is irrelevant. It's what the law provides for that is relevant.

You should pull out your EULA for any of the recent software you've purchased and actually read it. (Especially if it's an OEM version of Windows XP Home Edition.) That's an agreement, entered into voluntarily. What you'll find there will blow your mind, but in this day and age of disrespectful behavior towards intellectual property -- whether it be software or magic secrets -- things will get even more constrained.

John LeBlanc

Terry_Holley
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby Terry_Holley » October 3rd, 2004, 6:01 pm

Well, Jeff Busby did not have the eBay auction for his Order Form and Envelope shut down. It went for a whopping $1.04! I hate to part with it. I was sort of hoping it might get shut down!

The Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick is still up for auction also. I wonder what is going through his mind that causes him to attempt to shut down some auctions and not others.

If any one out there complained to eBay about Jeff's antics since this thread started, I would like to hear about your complaint and if there was any response.

Terry

John LeBlanc
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby John LeBlanc » October 3rd, 2004, 7:24 pm

Originally posted by Terry Holley:
The Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick is still up for auction also. I wonder what is going through his mind that causes him to attempt to shut down some auctions and not others.
That's actually a good question. It may be a case of "pick your fights" and he may have a sixth sense about who and who not to engage. I considered putting my Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick up on eBay because I have the time, the money, and the inclination to take this one to the mat. The problem, of course, is I'd have to risk actually having to sell my gimmick and I'd rather not do that (at least for now.) Ah well.

John LeBlanc

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magicam
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Re: Ebay...Paul Fox and Busby Again?

Postby magicam » October 4th, 2004, 10:01 pm

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Magicam:
I believe that the purchaser of that computer and all those programs has the legal right to use those programs (I'm assuming I haven't illegally copied the programs and really selling the copies, etc - if I sold the computer, I'd give the original CD-ROM's to the purchaser.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John wrote: "What you believe is irrelevant. It's what the law provides for that is relevant."

You're right, of course, but it's still hard to believe!

Why not put a high reserve on your gimmick?

Clay


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